"Tinuviel! Tinuviel!" and its possible implications for Aragorn

Blad The Inspirer

New Member
Something that you brought up about this line during episode 73 struck me as very interesting. I had forgotten the fact that Beren would have had no way of knowing her name, and therefore must have been inspired to call her this based purely on his experience of seeing her.

It made me think about two connections between that moment and Aragorn's life. I am reluctant to bring them up, as I want to avoid skipping ahead in the text, but I wanted to raise these points before I forget.

The first connection is to Aragorn's name, Elessar. We find out in The Houses of Healing in The Return of the King that the people of Minas Tirith "named him Elfstone, because of the green stone that he wore, and so the name which it was foretold at his birth that he should bear was chosen for him by his own people." There is a self-fulfilling prophecy element to this example, but can such an element be seen in the "Tinuviel" line in the poem? I'm not quite sure so I would like to hear someone's opinion.

The second connection is far more explicit. Aragorn, of course, calls out Tinuviel's name when he first sees Arwen, because he was thinking about her at the time. I always just thought of this as a nice parallel between the two stories, but after hearing your comments on the poem, I started to wonder if this is actually calling attention to a contrast between the two stories. Beren was right on the money when he cried "Tinuviel", but Aragorn is just a little off, and is quickly corrected by Arwen. Could this be foreshadowing a sadder and more bitter ending to the story of A&A than we had for B&L? Could it even suggest that the relationship of A&A was a mistake?

I haven't finished listening to episode 74 yet, so I apologize if this question was already covered.
 
The first connection is to Aragorn's name, Elessar. We find out in The Houses of Healing in The Return of the King that the people of Minas Tirith "named him Elfstone, because of the green stone that he wore, and so the name which it was foretold at his birth that he should bear was chosen for him by his own people." There is a self-fulfilling prophecy element to this example, but can such an element be seen in the "Tinuviel" line in the poem? I'm not quite sure so I would like to hear someone's opinion.
Oh no, I had the exact same thought as we were talking over that section of the poem in class, but I didn't remember or look up the exact details of Aragorn having his prophesied name chosen for him by his own people. I definitely think there's a parallel between him and Luthien there.

Perhaps the slight misidentification between Aragorn and Arwen foretells a slightly sadder end to their story than Beren and Luthien's (then again, we never learn the exact details of Beren's and Luthien's deaths, including whether one outlived the other, and for how long). But I see no indication anywhere in the lore that Aragorn's and Arwen's marriage is a mistake.
 
You raise an interesting point about the end of Beren and Luthien's story. It is told from a different perspective and in much less detail than that of Aragorn and Arwen, so it is hard for us to know what the end of their lives was like. However, I think the idea was raised in one of the other threads that the Beren and Luthien story was sad from the perspective of the Eldar, but not so sad from the perspective of those two characters.

I don't really think Aragorn and Arwen's marriage was a mistake either, at least not from an objective observer's perspective, but I wonder what Arwen was thinking at Aragorn's death. Judging by her words to him in appendix A, I think at least we can say that she might have considered their union a mistake. When Aragorn suggests that she could board a ship and sail into the West, Arwen says that there is no ship that would bear her, rather than saying that she still wants to commit to the decision that they made together.
 
I hope that we eventually get to the story of Aragorn and Arwen (when I re-read nowadays, I generally read Silmarillion, Hobbit, Chapter 1 of Fellowship, most of Aragorn & Arwen, then the rest of LotR -- just helps to fill up those 17 years between Chapters 1 &2).

I never got the impression that she thought their marriage a mistake, just that she was not at all prepared for the grief. The ship suggestion is interesting -- I used to think that Aragorn was just being dense, but perhaps he was wondering whether, if she had not truly committed herself to him, then she might still be fully Elven and entitled to passage to Valinor. But Arwen knows that she did fully commit, which is why her pain is so great. It's like she's saying "I'm not reneging on my commitment, but I don't have to enjoy the consequences." In some respects, her response to death is the more human that Aragorn's. Still, it only took a year for her to give back the gift.

Also, when Beren and Lúthien returned, they isolated themselves from all Men and most Elves. Aragorn and Arwen have been living in society, taking an active part in rebuilding the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. She was 2780 years an Elf, only 121 years a Mortal. And she never got to talk things over with Mandos or Manwë.
 
And she never got to talk things over with Mandos or Manwë.
I like to go with the theory that the race of Men do indeed pass through the Halls of Mandos, if separately from the Elves, and that Aragorn might have been awaiting her arrival, and that she got to have that little chat with Námo on her way through. He would have some insight into her situation after Lúthien.
 
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