Turgon's Halls in Vinyamar

MithLuin

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A lot of the discussion early in today's session (4.16) focused on the storyline of Turgon in Middle-earth, and how his throne room at Vinyamar reflects where he is and where he will be going.

So, a few salient details -
  • An open - air concept, so that there is no wall closing off the throne room from the view of the Sea.
  • Throne facing west, looking at where they came from (quite literally)
  • Simple/modest stone throne, built into the building (not a movable chair).
  • Statue of Elenwë built into the wall (not quite bas relief, not quite a free-standing statue) at Turgon's left hand.
  • Idril stands by the throne on Turgon's right hand. (Later, this will be where the armor will be left behind).
It was a rather lengthy discussion, so feel free to check out the podcast for the reasoning behind some of these choices and what story we're trying to tell with Turgon in Middle-earth, starting here and continuing in Gondolin. They requested we see a 'dedication' of the throne room ceremony with High King Fingolfin during the Mereth Aderthad episode, so plenty of opportunity to show off any details we want to in the throne room design.


My first thought on the statuary is not exactly modest or simple. I went straight to baroque statuary in cathedrals in Rome, so...kinda the opposite of that ;)

The hall of the apostles in St. John Lateran, for instance:



Obviously, the Elenwë statue will be more lifesize, and less looming and giant :p

But for 'statues coming out of walls' I am reminded of images like this:



Here, the angels aren't just bas relief, but (some of them) are statues attached to the wall, not freestanding on plinths of their own.

I think that baroque religious statuary has completely the wrong scale, but the right level of emotion and movement. I don't want a static statue, but one that conveys something poignant...and these artists certainly knew how to do that.

We also are not going to portray her as dead, so nothing like this one:



So, what exactly do we want her to look like? What should this statue convey?

And do people think it should be plain stone or painted?
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Cool! Personally i had always imagined Vinyamar as a compound, half city by the sea, half fortress in the cliffs...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So, poses! For the Elenwë statue at Vinyamar. If it were commissioned by Bernini :p

Looking off into the distance and upwards:






Or reaching out?



Or seated?



A seated pose may work best for the attached to the wall/complement to Turgon on his throne imagery desired. Just, you know...with more clothes than this one.

I do like the downward head tilt like this angle:

 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
It would be interesting to discuss features alluding to the palace of Knossos (Minoan culture, Crete), which has associations to the myth of Atlantis. Not that Vinyamar has such connotations, but given the links to Numenor (which is a version of Atlantis), maybe a touch of some art tradition could be seen to be started here already (if not seen in Gondolin):

2099

So maybe we could use this kind of pillar, or the wall paintings?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Cool! Personally i had always imagined Vinyamar as a compound, half city by the sea, half fortress in the cliffs...
Hmmm, building into the cliffs holds a lot of potential. They talked a lot about how the throne should be 'attached' to the throne room, not something they could pick up and cart off to Gondolin (and same with the statue of Elenwë), so having both the throne and the statue carved from the actual rock of the cliff, with the throne room built around it would be pretty cool.

I know the dwarves carve their mansions from living rock all the time, but obviously Vinyamar isn't dwarf-built. So, I guess we'll want to emphasize the connection of the elves with their surroundings? Gondolin will be built into a rock, too, so we can show some repeats of this idea there, though not in the higher parts, obviously.

As for the view of the sea, I'm picturing stone pillars and arches, too, like that view from Mallorca. So, the rest of the throne room/palace can be obviously constructed from quarried stone, with just the back wall of the throne room a 'living stone' situation where it's rock-hewn rather than built from blocks.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member


I already wrote in the script discussion that i have trouble imagining Vinyamar...

But... like this maybe?
i mean we know it was built on mount taras, we know it had many terraces, we know it had a high tower and great hall, we know it was facing the sea, we know it had a haven...

So i basically took all illustations and paintings i could find and tried to make a very rough overview map, putting it on the terrain tolkien gave us..

So this is basically it:
The hills of nevrast tower over the beach, they form cliffs towards the sea in the west, in the east there is a small vale where the elves built a wall and a gate, this is where the road leads to, but the main settlement is either on the top of the highest hill, which is the main peak of mount taras or built into the western and southern cliffside, either as wide green terraces or as tall towered buildings growing out of the cliff rocks.

Turgons tower and hall sit on top of mount taras watching over the entire city, the havens are in the south where theres a sort of slim coastal plain or terrace built over sealevel, theres a wide beach further to the south which is probably flooded when the tide is high.

I guess a lot of the city would also be built within and under mount taras as the haven and cliffside town probably would only be accessable either over complicated stairs and paths running up from one terrace to another, or more likely by a tunnel which leads inside the hill where then there would be a stair or roadsystem by which the cliffsidebuildings and terraces could be accessed...

I sort of was thinking of "Gondolin or minas tirith-by-the-sea"...
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member


I already wrote in the script discussion that i have trouble imagining Vinyamar...

But... like this maybe?
i mean we know it was built on mount taras, we know it had many terraces, we know it had a high tower and great hall, we know it was facing the sea, we know it had a haven...

So i basically took all illustations and paintings i could find and tried to make a very rough overview map, putting it on the terrain tolkien gave us..

So this is basically it:
The hills of nevrast tower over the beach, they form cliffs towards the sea in the west, in the east there is a small vale where the elves built a wall and a gate, this is where the road leads to, but the main settlement is either on the top of the highest hill, which is the main peak of mount taras or built into the western and southern cliffside, either as wide green terraces or as tall towered buildings growing out of the cliff rocks.

Turgons tower and hall sit on top of mount taras watching over the entire city, the havens are in the south where theres a sort of slim coastal plain or terrace built over sealevel, theres a wide beach further to the south which is probably flooded when the tide is high.

I guess a lot of the city would also be built within and under mount taras as the haven and cliffside town probably would only be accessable either over complicated stairs and paths running up from one terrace to another, or more likely by a tunnel which leads inside the hill where then there would be a stair or roadsystem by which the cliffsidebuildings and terraces could be accessed...

I sort of was thinking of "Gondolin or minas tirith-by-the-sea"...
Wonderful!
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
While looking for lakeside castles for Keep Helevorn, I came across Swallow's Nest, a small castle in Crimea that overlooks the sea. I really like the architecture, and I thought it might could serve as inspiration for Vinyamar.

 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
Did a bit of sketching about turgon's halls but nothing definitive yet. Just a couple loose ideas. I'm tending towards round, calm and symmetrical but I also got some wacky ideas how Vinyamar could be built into the sea :D you don't have to take it very seriously. also i designed a throne + statue and convenient niche for armour to be left.IMG_0055_compress41~3.jpg
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
IMG_0063~3_compress14.jpg

So I finally got around to finish that Vinyamar picture I started. It's looking from the southwest towards the land. I adressed the feedback concerning it needing cliffs and waves, and I tried to depict what Corey described about the city (mostly on the other side of the hill, we see just a bit of it + the port and the islands in the river mouth) Turgon's palace is in a small villa & garden quarter, closest to the sea, the west, and in this picture, the sunset. This is also during the Mereth Aderthad, so the islands are in party-mode. It would all look very pretty during the long festive nights (like I sketched up in the picture above).

Might do a drawing for the actual palace still, have an idea there but here it's obviously not all sorted out.
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
Obviously there's way too many locations in Season 4 to draw them all until the last session, I'll probably do 1 or 2 more locations/other S4 things. Anyone got a wish? I have some candidates but I'm interested what you guys think needs to be sketched out. (or just what you'd like to see.)
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Obviously there's way too many locations in Season 4 to draw them all until the last session, I'll probably do 1 or 2 more locations/other S4 things. Anyone got a wish? I have some candidates but I'm interested what you guys think needs to be sketched out. (or just what you'd like to see.)
Feel free to draw whatever you wish, but I would be curious to see your take on the Noldorin camps in Mithrim or maybe Menegroth, even though it was discussed more in regard to Season 3.
 
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