Unalligned Characters

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The open-mindedness of the House of Finarfin towards marrying non-Noldor should probably be seen in contrast to the Fëanorean opinion that marrying Vanyar and Teleri is suspect. I would find it difficult to see any of Fëanor's sons marrying an elf in Middle Earth, though Celegorm does at least consider the possibility of marrying Lúthien.

Perhaps Maglor, as he's maybe less of a jerk than the others, but I'm not sure I really see that happening, either. On one level, I can't see any of them marrying post-Oath, so I figured some were married already, but seeing as how Maglor's wife (for instance) hasn't been part of this story yet, it's quite possible to have him marry in Middle Earth and introduce her now. But why wouldn't she just be part of the Host of Fëanoreans?
Celegorm wanted Luthien for power.

Why she wouldn’t just be part of the Feanoreans? I think the answer is “why not?” Because Maglor’s wife is someone we know nothing about, she’s unmentioned in the Silmarillion. As John Callen, who played Oin in The Hobbit, said of a thinly-written character: “... you either say, ‘Crikey, we got nothing to work with’ or ‘Crikey, we got carte blanche!’”
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Anyone :) . I am just thinking IF we ever needed to introduce a new character how we could play with the illusion that the person has somehow always been there and just had no actual dialogue yet, and maybe family relations could work here.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Anyone :) . I am just thinking IF we ever needed to introduce a new character how we could play with the illusion that the person has somehow always been there and just had no actual dialogue yet, and maybe family relations could work here.
We’ve done it with the House of Finwe; the children of Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin were around during Season 2, they just didn’t have lines yet.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Only the sons of Finarfin didn't have lines in Season 2; the others did. We just held off on casting them so as not to have to do them all at once.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Please let's not even talk about introducing any characters made up by Peter Jackson.


Maglor may be willing to marry a Dark Elf, but it's hard to imagine any Nelyarin or other Dark Elf willingly marrying a Feanorian, without a really good story to justify it. The Sindar pretty much universally hate the Sons of Feanor after the Kinslaying is revealed, and they don't seem to take them as kings or integrate into their followers. Not that it isn't possible, but we would have to find a way to make it work, and then several 0f his brothers would freak out... it would be a whole subplot.

Caranthir would never consider relations with an inferior "savage", but there's no reason he can't marry a Noldo in Middle-earth. Curufin left his wife in Valinor. Celegorm... what he felt towards Luthien cannot be called love, or even respect. He wanted to rape her and use her, nothing more.

Given how little we'll be focusing on Feanorians for awhile, their wives seem like characters to include casually, without an elaborate introduction or on-screen wedding.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Please let's not even talk about introducing any characters made up by Peter Jackson.


Maglor may be willing to marry a Dark Elf, but it's hard to imagine any Nelyarin or other Dark Elf willingly marrying a Feanorian, without a really good story to justify it. The Sindar pretty much universally hate the Sons of Feanor after the Kinslaying is revealed, and they don't seem to take them as kings or integrate into their followers. Not that it isn't possible, but we would have to find a way to make it work, and then several 0f his brothers would freak out... it would be a whole subplot.

Caranthir would never consider relations with an inferior "savage", but there's no reason he can't marry a Noldo in Middle-earth. Curufin left his wife in Valinor. Celegorm... what he felt towards Luthien cannot be called love, or even respect. He wanted to rape her and use her, nothing more.

Given how little we'll be focusing on Feanorians for awhile, their wives seem like characters to include casually, without an elaborate introduction or on-screen wedding.
That's what I said about Celegorm, he wants her for power. Maybe with Maglor, because of his (possible) marriage to a Morquendi and his incompetency after Maedhros capture, loses most of his say in what goes on with the Feanoreans?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
How about having Ornil or Finrobar as an Elf imprisoned at Tol-en-Gaurhoth/Minas Tirith, and freed when Luthien and Huan take Tol-en-Gaurhoth? We need Elves from Nargothrond amongst the freed, since they reveal Celegorm and Curufin’s treachery and throw their support behind Orodreth, who kicks Celegorm and Curufin out of Nargothrond.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I have been mulling over some possible background or side story material that almost definitely won't be included is this project, but, well, who knows, maybe it could come up?

Penlod being lord of two distinct houses in Gondolin intrigues me, and it just feels like there is an untold story there. So, some possibilities.
  • One house is for Noldor, and the other is for Sindar. The division into separate houses is fallout from the Kinslaying reveal.
  • Penlod's brother died crossing the Helcaraxe, and the other house is in memory of him and what he would have done in Middle-earth.
  • Penlod's brother died in the Dagor Aglareb, so he founded the house himself, but died before they moved to Gondolin.
  • Penlod's brother is a captive of Sauron's who never returns (this idea was mostly vetoed already - but from the viewpoint of not introducing this imaginary brother to the audience.)
  • Etc
I know that Penlod himself is such a minor character that we may very well never learn any details about him. He might just be 'there' as a lord of Gondolin in Turgon's court. But, you know, should the opportunity arise...we could include whichever explanation we chose in just a line or so of dialogue.


I really hesitate to name any minor characters 'Fin'-anything. I like the name Finrobar, but I think it might be too confusing or distracting to do that, unfortunately.

Eldalote is such a pretty name. If we named Angrod's wife Edhellos, is there another Noldo lady we could call Eldalote? Maybe someone in the Feanorean camp?

So...some elves are going to be captives in Angband or Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Maybe the show will check in on them occasionally? Like, yep, still miserable and in chains, but also maybe a little bit of story? Gwindor's escape (or Rog's) might be something we show from their viewpoint when in happens, rather than waiting for them to rejoin the other elves. And if so...

Here, have a side story idea that no one asked for! Caranthir and Angrod have their feud as in the book, and that plays out between episode 4 when Caranthir is a jerk, and when the Kinslaying is revealed by Angrod to Thingol (maybe around episode 9). Caranthir's wife (not Curufin's) is the artisan made captive sometime in Season 4 and then forced into slave labor. Angrod's wife Edhellos was taken prisoner as well, so when he hears that news, he sends a genuine message of condolence to Caranthir. Now, at the end of Season 5, Angrod is severely wounded in the Dagor Bragollach and taken prisoner. He is thrown into slavery in Angband. ..where he meets Caranthir's wife. She helps him recover from his injury and survive. Here in this harsh and hopeless place, they are natural allies who view their former feud as unimportant and forgive it. Gelmir is there too, and when the Nirnaeth Arnoediad comes in Season 7, he is taken away. He does not return, but his brother Gwindor is a new prisoner in their slave labor camp. Angrod helps Gwindor escape, with the reminder that Angrod died in the Dagor Bragollach, and it was only one of Morgoth's unhappy slaves who helped him escape.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Finrobar is a typo for Findobar. But we needn't use it at all, we have a lot of names available for male minor characters.

Eldalote is such a pretty name. If we named Angrod's wife Edhellos, is there another Noldo lady we could call Eldalote? Maybe someone in the Feanorean camp?
Eldalote is just the Quenya form of Edhellos. I suggested using the Sindarin because the other Noldor who reach Middle-earth are called Sindarin names. I suggested Faniel for Maglor's wife and Erien for Fingolfin's herald. But I don't really like Nethril for Curufin's/Caranthir's wife and don't have another female name suggestion. Perhaps some of the names on my list are gender-neutral. Quennar seems to be gender-neutral and Haerangil suggested they're a Feanorian loremaster, but it's Quenya so it needs to be translated to Pennor. Quennar even looks kind of feminine - Quennáro would be more masculine.

Caranthir and Angrod have their feud as in the book, and that plays out between episode 4 when Caranthir is a jerk, and when the Kinslaying is revealed by Angrod to Thingol (maybe around episode 9). Caranthir's wife (not Curufin's) is the artisan made captive sometime in Season 4 and then forced into slave labor. Angrod's wife Edhellos was taken prisoner as well, so when he hears that news, he sends a genuine message of condolence to Caranthir. Now, at the end of Season 5, Angrod is severely wounded in the Dagor Bragollach and taken prisoner. He is thrown into slavery in Angband. ..where he meets Caranthir's wife. She helps him recover from his injury and survive. Here in this harsh and hopeless place, they are natural allies who view their former feud as unimportant and forgive it. Gelmir is there too, and when the Nirnaeth Arnoediad comes in Season 7, he is taken away. He does not return, but his brother Gwindor is a new prisoner in their slave labor camp. Angrod helps Gwindor escape, with the reminder that Angrod died in the Dagor Bragollach, and it was only one of Morgoth's unhappy slaves who helped him escape.
I really like this story. Caranthir's wife is an artisan and a healer. It allows us to continue characterizing her even after she's captured, instead of just writing her out of the show. Curufin's wife is either available as a repeat background face who maybe someday we turn into a minor character, or if we never have need or room for her we can say she stayed in Valinor like in the books.

We should decide what kind of personality to give Caranthir's/Curufin's wife. Is she kind of a jerk like her husband, and later becomes a nicer person after experiencing terrible hardship, or is she a always a nicer person who sticks with her husband because she still sees something good in him?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I know we're using Sindarin names, and was very sympathetic to the decision not to suddenly rename our entire cast of Noldor in this season!

I just like some of the Quenya names and figure we might have reason to use some of them. A Quenya name implies 'Kinslayer Unrepentant', so only in the Feanorean camp, of course.I know we are using the Sindarin names for the Feanoreans themselves (following the text of the published Silmarillion), but for characters not named there I thought there might be some leeway.

How funny would it be if Angrod's wife were named Edhellos and Caranthir's were named Eldalote? Probably too confusing for us, though.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Its a bit frustrating, i can understand corey when he says tje audience needs to suffer... but i do not see a real reason to kill off canonical characters!

Therevare so many characters we could kill off...

Annael, Annaels wife, Caranthirs wife, Maglors wife, Voronwes mother/Aranwes wife, Aranwe, Nimloths mother/Galathils wife, Eldalote, Elemmakil, Elmo, Enerdhil, Faniel, Finbor, Findobar, Galadhon, Galathil, Galdor Gaurin, Guilin, Inglor, Halmir, Hendor, Finvain, Ithilbor, Lindis, Loruin, Mablon, Meleth, Nargil, Nellas, Nielthi, Ogbar, Ornil, Penlodh, Pengolodh, Quennar, Rodrim, Rog, Saithnar,Orodlin, Torhir, Gereth, Mablung...


All these can die tragical deaths at one point.But to do so we also would have to introduce them at one point!

Aegnor, Angrod, Argon, Aredhel, Beleg, Caranthir, Celegorm, Curufin, Dior, Ecthelion, Edrahil, Egalmoth, Thingol, Elured, Elurin, Eol, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Gelmir, Gwindor, Haldir, Finduilas, Luthien, Maedhros, Maeglin, Nimloth, Orodreth, Saeros, Turgon, ... all of these will die at one point.canonically!

And Feanor, Amras, Finwe, Denethor, Olwe, ... we have already killed!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Its a bit frustrating, i can understand corey when he says tje audience needs to suffer... but i do not see a real reason to kill off canonical characters!

Therevare so many characters we could kill off...

Annael, Annaels wife, Caranthirs wife, Maglors wife, Voronwes mother/Aranwes wife, Aranwe, Nimloths mother/Galathils wife, Eldalote, Elemmakil, Elmo, Enerdhil, Faniel, Finbor, Findobar, Galadhon, Galathil, Galdor Gaurin, Guilin, Inglor, Halmir, Hendor, Finvain, Ithilbor, Lindis, Loruin, Mablon, Meleth, Nargil, Nellas, Nielthi, Ogbar, Ornil, Penlodh, Pengolodh, Quennar, Rodrim, Rog, Saithnar,Orodlin, Torhir, Gereth, Mablung...


All these can die tragical deaths at one point.But to do so we also would have to introduce them at one point!

Aegnor, Angrod, Argon, Aredhel, Beleg, Caranthir, Celegorm, Curufin, Dior, Ecthelion, Edrahil, Egalmoth, Thingol, Elured, Elurin, Eol, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Gelmir, Gwindor, Haldir, Finduilas, Luthien, Maedhros, Maeglin, Nimloth, Orodreth, Saeros, Turgon, ... all of these will die at one point.canonically!

And Feanor, Amras, Finwe, Denethor, Olwe, ... we have already killed!
I think Rog is listed as KIA in the Fall of Gondolin.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Ah true! He gets incinerated by the Balrogs... how could ive forgotten!

So rog is now in the -soontobekilled list too, nomore in the m8ght-be-killed-at-ome-point list.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Oh yes, our story must include Rog's valiant fighting outside the walls when the city falls!

There are so many characters we could kill off...
...
All these can die tragical deaths at one point.But to do so we also would have to introduce them at one point!
And that's the crux of the matter. It's only a 'tragic death' if we have introduced the character and the audience knows them and is rooting for them. While we certainly won't be introducing all of those characters in this show, we will probably have the opportunity to include at least a few. I'd like to see Enerdhil make an appearance in our project. I know we intend to have Inglor (as one of Finrod's companions who dies with him) and Nellas (as a young elf in Túrin's story; how/when she would die is as yet undecided). And I have to imagine that Aranwë father of Voronwë will make an appearance at some point. Same with Pengolod of Gondolin....I mean, we have to have him, right? Gondolin is a geographical location with a wealth of minor characters to choose from, so we likely won't have them all.

But we'll need some. We'll send some bodyguards with Aredhel, and some will flee back to Gondolin, but at least one of them will probably be eaten by giant spiders (right?) Turgon is going to send a bunch of ships, and while Voronwë makes it back, every single mariner before him perishes. (Perhaps Aranwë can lead the first expedition? Or his wife, if she's one of Círdan's people and knows ships? Or one of them builds the ship and the other sails it?) We'll have plenty of scenes in the Hidden City from season to season until we destroy it, so...lots of opportunities to have repeat background characters. Salgant playing his harp and being a lovable portly non-military elf (or at least something non-farcical for him)...so that his death in the Fall of Gondolin then becomes a tragic death. IF we don't see him as a citizen of Gondolin, then his death doesn't 'count' when it happens.

Which is why it's really important that we're giving Rog a little side story now. We're introducing him to the audience, proving his competence as a fighter and a tough guy, but more than that, making the audience remember that the elves have a personal grievance with Morgoth. As time goes on, the fact that Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwë and stole the silmarils isn't going to seem so important to the audience. That was a long time ago! All the way back in Season 2! And look what Fëanor did in the meantime.... New atrocities by Morgoth (he had Rog tortured!) help to move the story forward without too much sympathy for the devil. We'll see Rog fight with Fingolfin and Fingon, and now in the end for Turgon, showing that he's not going to give up fighting back against Morgoth until his last breath....that story works for him if we keep seeing him fighting. His final fall in battle is going to be something we care about, because we've built up to it for so long.

In some ways, it's funny that we've got a great story to introduce Rog, but still haven't figured out how we're going to showcase Ecthelion and Glorfindel this season!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Oh yes, our story must include Rog's valiant fighting outside the walls when the city falls!



And that's the crux of the matter. It's only a 'tragic death' if we have introduced the character and the audience knows them and is rooting for them. While we certainly won't be introducing all of those characters in this show, we will probably have the opportunity to include at least a few. I'd like to see Enerdhil make an appearance in our project. I know we intend to have Inglor (as one of Finrod's companions who dies with him) and Nellas (as a young elf in Túrin's story; how/when she would die is as yet undecided). And I have to imagine that Aranwë father of Voronwë will make an appearance at some point. Same with Pengolod of Gondolin....I mean, we have to have him, right? Gondolin is a geographical location with a wealth of minor characters to choose from, so we likely won't have them all.

But we'll need some. We'll send some bodyguards with Aredhel, and some will flee back to Gondolin, but at least one of them will probably be eaten by giant spiders (right?) Turgon is going to send a bunch of ships, and while Voronwë makes it back, every single mariner before him perishes. (Perhaps Aranwë can lead the first expedition? Or his wife, if she's one of Círdan's people and knows ships? Or one of them builds the ship and the other sails it?) We'll have plenty of scenes in the Hidden City from season to season until we destroy it, so...lots of opportunities to have repeat background characters. Salgant playing his harp and being a lovable portly non-military elf (or at least something non-farcical for him)...so that his death in the Fall of Gondolin then becomes a tragic death. IF we don't see him as a citizen of Gondolin, then his death doesn't 'count' when it happens.

Which is why it's really important that we're giving Rog a little side story now. We're introducing him to the audience, proving his competence as a fighter and a tough guy, but more than that, making the audience remember that the elves have a personal grievance with Morgoth. As time goes on, the fact that Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwë and stole the silmarils isn't going to seem so important to the audience. That was a long time ago! All the way back in Season 2! And look what Fëanor did in the meantime.... New atrocities by Morgoth (he had Rog tortured!) help to move the story forward without too much sympathy for the devil. We'll see Rog fight with Fingolfin and Fingon, and now in the end for Turgon, showing that he's not going to give up fighting back against Morgoth until his last breath....that story works for him if we keep seeing him fighting. His final fall in battle is going to be something we care about, because we've built up to it for so long.

In some ways, it's funny that we've got a great story to introduce Rog, but still haven't figured out how we're going to showcase Ecthelion and Glorfindel this season!
So I guess we’re not having just Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth escorting Aredhel and having more bodyguards?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, I don't know what we're doing in that scene, to be honest. One reason CJRT did not include Glorfindel and Ecthelion in that scene in the Silmarillion was because having them run away from Nan Dungortheb and leave Aredhel looked weak/cowardly, and was not an action befitting the two premier military leaders of Gondolin. We will likely have the same problem with that scene, but how we'll choose to solve it remains to be seen. CJRT left the guards unnamed, and that way it didn't matter who they were or what they did. We won't have that option; we'll have to send someone with Aredhel, and it likely won't be entirely faceless soldier types. Or rather - we'll have to decide if Glorfindel and Ecthelion are there or not; we can't just gloss over it and hope no one notices. A question for Season 5.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Ecthelion and Glorfindel should be Fingolfinian lieutenants... bit so far we didnt have roles for them! At one point well have to have some feanorian lieutenants. If Aredhel needs bodyguards... why then not Hendor, or Laqalasse instead? I would suggext Pengolodh... but so far we see bim as a mere scholar, notba bodyguard, though corey is right if he says thats not a contradiction. Feanor is a scholar, artisan and fighter...
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Let's just keep in mind that Pengolodh needs to survive until the fall of Eregion and then sail West, so we can't have him eaten by Spiders. Also, purposely putting the city's greatest loremaster and living library in danger of being eaten by giant Spiders seems too foolish for Turgon to do.
 
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