Stori3D Past
Member
OK. We know that after the 8th King of Arnor, dissent splits the kingdom into three: Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. And often that gets called a period of "civil wars" in which fortresses were made and walls erected and battles fought.
But ... did any of that happen? Obviously later Rhudaur-Angmar fought against Arthedain-Cardolan. But that is 500 YEARS later and is less civil war & more flat-out war. Let me explain my thoughts:
Conflicting Data:
1. Appendix A mentions that during the period of the 3 kingdoms (starting with the split in TA 861) there was "often strife" and that "hastened the waning of the Dunedain."
2. BUT ... Appendix A also says that it wasn't until the reign of Malvegil (d TA 1349) that "evil came to Arnor." Appendix A also says that when Arthedain claimed overlordship of Arnor again, Cardolan accepted.
So, to #1: The word "strife" suggests armed conflict, as does "hastened the waning." But there is -zero- mention in the Tale of Years of any battle between any of the Arnorian elements all the way from the split (TA 861) to the Battle of Weathertop (TA 1356). No wars mentioned. No kings lost. No sorrowful tales of destruction. Moreover, "hastened the waning" could simply mean that the Dunedain were not acting very Dunedain-like and their grace withered as a result.
To #2, if evil only came to the Arnorian lands in TA 1349, that suggests *strongly* against bloodshed & civil war beforehand. Such bloodshed would have amounted to a Kin-Slaying. It would have been grossly evil.
We do have sign that Cardolan and Arthedain separated themselves. The old wall & ditch along the road between Buckland and Bree suggests a political division that was backed by might. But the fact that there is zero mention of any "Kin-Slaying," or any purported wars at all until TA 1356, makes me think that the recorded "strife" was political & civil, and that battles were not fought. By the time of war with Rhudaur in ~TA 1350, Rhudaur was no longer even Dunedain; it was ruled by Hillmen under the sway of Angmar. And during that time Arthedain claimed overlordship of Cardolan and Cardolan accepted. Those battles last from about TA 1350 to about TA 1409.
Rhudaur-Angmar then destroys Weathertop, and then the Rivendell Elves fight back and subdue Rhudaur-Angmar. And from TA 1409 - TA 1974 we again hear of no more battle in Arnor. The battle resumes in TA 1974, led 100% by Angmar, which destroys Arthedain but then is defeated the next year.
So that whole period, TA 861 - TA 1975, I can't read anything that says "civil war with Dunedain fighting Dunedain to the death."
I think we need to rethink discussion of Arnorian civil wars. Any other thoughts on this?
But ... did any of that happen? Obviously later Rhudaur-Angmar fought against Arthedain-Cardolan. But that is 500 YEARS later and is less civil war & more flat-out war. Let me explain my thoughts:
Conflicting Data:
1. Appendix A mentions that during the period of the 3 kingdoms (starting with the split in TA 861) there was "often strife" and that "hastened the waning of the Dunedain."
2. BUT ... Appendix A also says that it wasn't until the reign of Malvegil (d TA 1349) that "evil came to Arnor." Appendix A also says that when Arthedain claimed overlordship of Arnor again, Cardolan accepted.
So, to #1: The word "strife" suggests armed conflict, as does "hastened the waning." But there is -zero- mention in the Tale of Years of any battle between any of the Arnorian elements all the way from the split (TA 861) to the Battle of Weathertop (TA 1356). No wars mentioned. No kings lost. No sorrowful tales of destruction. Moreover, "hastened the waning" could simply mean that the Dunedain were not acting very Dunedain-like and their grace withered as a result.
To #2, if evil only came to the Arnorian lands in TA 1349, that suggests *strongly* against bloodshed & civil war beforehand. Such bloodshed would have amounted to a Kin-Slaying. It would have been grossly evil.
We do have sign that Cardolan and Arthedain separated themselves. The old wall & ditch along the road between Buckland and Bree suggests a political division that was backed by might. But the fact that there is zero mention of any "Kin-Slaying," or any purported wars at all until TA 1356, makes me think that the recorded "strife" was political & civil, and that battles were not fought. By the time of war with Rhudaur in ~TA 1350, Rhudaur was no longer even Dunedain; it was ruled by Hillmen under the sway of Angmar. And during that time Arthedain claimed overlordship of Cardolan and Cardolan accepted. Those battles last from about TA 1350 to about TA 1409.
Rhudaur-Angmar then destroys Weathertop, and then the Rivendell Elves fight back and subdue Rhudaur-Angmar. And from TA 1409 - TA 1974 we again hear of no more battle in Arnor. The battle resumes in TA 1974, led 100% by Angmar, which destroys Arthedain but then is defeated the next year.
So that whole period, TA 861 - TA 1975, I can't read anything that says "civil war with Dunedain fighting Dunedain to the death."
I think we need to rethink discussion of Arnorian civil wars. Any other thoughts on this?
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