Way back Ep 9/10: Not suspecting Nazgul

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Lotrmith

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Hello!

I was recently made aware of the existence of these wonderful, spectacular, amazing classes on YouTube and have been trying my best to (slowly) get through them. They are engrossing!

Forgive me if this was covered in later classes but in I believe E09 and then followed up in query in E10, it was discussed that Gandalf (1) did not suspect the Nazgul would be among the "servants of the Enemy" seeking the Ring and (2) rightly estimated they had plenty of time before the Shire could be found and Frodo identified and tracked down.

I was surprised first and foremost that Gandalf of all people, having met and questioned Gollum and determined that he had been captured and questioned by Sauron himself, with Sauron certainly being able to discern that Gollum had possessed his One Ring, didn't think that Sauron would send the Nine out to look for it. Why not? I mean, there's a period of time perhaps that Gandalf did know that Gollum had been tortured in Mordor and revealed Shire & Baggins, but did not yet know it was the One Ring. But after Gandalf determines that it IS the One, certainly after confirming with Frodo and the fire writing, why wouldn't Gandalf then immediately realize the peril and suspect that Sauron might send, or in fact would even be *likely* to send, his most powerful servants to look for the thing in the world that he desires above all else?

It's not like the Nazgul are known to be dormant at this time. The White Council suspected that the Necromancer might be a Nazgul.

In my opinion, it's not even out of the question that Sauron himself might go looking for it. It's that important to him, isn't it?

Then in the followup in E10 the distance is discussed, and something else caught my attention in that the land all about was sparsely populated and so the Enemy wouldn't be able to find and question much of anyone on the location of the Shire. But, on the other hand, wouldn't that mean the Enemy would be able to pass more quickly through those lands, because there are no settlements to stop in? Would they not have perhaps fanned out, and at least one ridden up the Greenway fairly quickly and gotten to Bree, where they certainly know of the Shire, and where hobbits actually live (who are like in stature to Gollum)?

Didn't hobbits have forces sent to the Battle of Fornost, so that the Witch King and other Nazgul might at least suspect that region to contain little people like to Gollum?

Sorry if any of this gets covered later. I'm just dying to know and it's been bugging me.
 
Hi Lotrmith,

Good questions. Here are some things to think about as you progress forward:

1. Sauron's first response: Gollum is captured by Sauron sometime between 3009 and 3017 (We don't know when). So there could be quite a few years between Sauron learning of the Ring and his taking any action. At minimum Sauron might have learned about the Ring from Gollum as late as early 3017. The first action he takes is the assault on Osgiliath to try to take the bridge over the Anduin on 20 June 3018. (Although a near simultaneous action is the Orcish rescue of Gollum from the Elves.) Sauron is not in a rush to recover the Ring. Rather than a search for Baggins and the Shire, he launches an assault on Osgiliath, led by the Witch King, to take the bridge (foiled by Boromir and Faramir's defence while the bridge is destroyed) . What is Sauron's strategy? Why a military assault on Gondor? Why no urgency to search for the Ring?

2. The course of the Nine: Gandalf meets Radagast on 29 June, and is told that the Nine have crossed the River (Anduin) secretly, and are looking for a land called The Shire. This is only 9 days after the failed assault on the bridge. Radagast says he gets this news from Saruman. But is it true? Saruman is playing his own game at this time. Is he deceiving Gandalf via Radagast? The Nine do not actually cross the Fords of the Isen into Eriador until 18 September. What were they doing in the 3 months between supposedly crossing the Anduin and crossing the Isen? (There are two partial, contradictory, accounts drafted by JRRT to be found in The Book of Lost Tales). Possibly they were searching north up the Anduin, near the Gladden Fields? Looking for Gollum? Anyway, the Nine enter the Shire on 23 September, just 5 days after entering Eriador. So, once in Eriador, the Nine spend no time searching for The Shire, they just head straight there at speed. Presumably they have learned where it is from someone near Isengard. Saruman? Wormtongue? What are the Nine doing for 3 months after the attack on the bridge? How urgently are they looking for the Ring, the Shire, and Baggins?

3. Gandalf's assumptions: Gandalf, while in the south of The Shire, before meeting Radagast, reports that messages had reached him telling of war and defeat in Gondor, accompanied by a 'Black Shadow'. How did messages reach Gandalf in circa 9 days from Osgiliath to the Shire? Gandalf also reports that he found 'a few fugitives from the South', and it seemed to him that 'on them sat a fear of which they would not speak'. Gandalf seems to assume that this fear was caused by the Nazgul (at least once Radagast tells him that they have crossed the River), but the Nazgul do not cross into Eriador until 3 months later. Was the fear Gandalf detected in the fugitives caused by Nazgul, or rumours of Nazgul, or by the actions of Saruman, as he prepares his Uruk-hai, and armies in Isengard?

4. Sauron's priorities: Gandalf says, "He (Sauron) greatly desires it (the Ring) - but he must not get it.' 'The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.' 'He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.' Just how 'greatly' does Sauron really desire the Ring? And why? Sauron is already plenty strong. Sauron already commands the Nine. The Seven are back in his control or melted by Dragons. Sure, if he could command the Three that would be good for him, but the Elves hid them from him once before. Why couldn't they just do that again? There is no indication that Sauron would regain that 'great part of his former power' which he passed into the Ring if he regained the Ring. He put that power in to rule the others. Can he get it back out again? If he could, would he lose control over the Nazgul? Is it possible that Sauron thinks that regaining the Ring is of limited value to his own objectives, but that the wielding of the Ring against him by someone powerful would be a dangerous threat? As long as no-one powerful is aware that the Ring exists, recovering it, while useful, is not the highest priority? Did Sauron release Gollum in the hope that Gollum would eventually find the Ring? Did Sauron become alarmed about the possibility of someone powerful becoming aware of the Ring if Gollum remained in Elvish captivity, and that is why he launched the rescue? Could it be that it is when the Nazgul reach Isengard, and suspect that Saruman (and possibly Gandalf) are aware of The Shire, and possibly of The Ring, that the search for the Ring reaches highest priority - to recover it before a rival power can obtain it?

Those are a few questions to ponder as you move forward. As for your current questions about Gandalf, and his assumptions about Sauron's searching for the Ring; whether he would deploy the Nazgul? How urgently he would search? How much time was safe? What exactly does Gandalf say? How much is he emphasizing certain aspects of what he says for impact on Frodo? Could it be that Gandalf creates the impression for Frodo that Sauron will seek the Ring with a higher priority and more urgency than Gandalf actually assesses? Is Gandalf not pretty correct in his estimate of how long it will take for Sauron's agents to actually find The Shire? Of course, Gandalf becomes more worried and concerned once he hears that the Nazgul are looking for The Shire (is Radagast's report correct, or has Saruman just told him that to get Gandalf to come to Isengard?), and especially once he learns of Saruman's treason, and that Saruman suspects The Ring.
 
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Thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful response. The timeline sure can be confusing. I wonder if any of the timeline is a relic of editing and continuity. I've never considered Sauron's motivations but with what I understand about the Ring lore it would surprise me if finding and recovering it wouldn't be his primary objective above all others. I wonder if future classes might shed more light. Cheers!
 
I think that many readers assume that Sauron's primary objective is to find and recover the Ring. I think it is one of his objectives, but, if it is his primary objective, his delays in getting that mission going are puzzling? Also, why is recovering the Ring a key objective of Sauron? Is it mainly to be able to wield it himself? If so, what exactly would he gain? Sauron is in a very strong position without the Ring. He is influencing Saruman and Denethor through the Palantir. He has his Nazgul. He has his Orcs. He has massive armies of allies from Harad and Rhum. Isn't Sauron's best strategy to keep corrupting his potential enemies and play a long game? He has been very slow and patient throughout the Third Age. Why so hasty now? Is his main motivation to keep the Ring away from potential rival ringlords? As long as he thinks that Gollum, and the mysterious Baggins are the only ones aware of the Ring, perhaps he thinks he has time? Still, best to be prepared and take the bridge over the Anduin so as to be able to assault Gondor? Is it only once he thinks that Saruman, and possibly Gandalf might be aware of the Ring that he kicks the Nazgul into high gear? Did he become aware via some Palantir conversation with Saruman, which caused him to redirect the Nazgul? ("Find out what Saruman knows, and get the Ring! All of you! Top priority! Stop messing around looking for Gollum, or whatever else you are doing.")?

What was Gollum's part in Sauron's plan to recover the Ring? Why did Sauron let Gollum 'escape' from Mordor? Can we assume from the Orc rescue of Gollum from the Elves that Sauron had been tracking and keeping tabs on Gollum all along?

Gandalf, in conversation with Frodo, says that Sauron greatly desires the Ring. I'm sure he does. But is it his top priority? Also, Gandalf is speaking to have an effect on Frodo. Is it possible that he is inducing inferences (in both Frodo and the Reader) that are more than what he is actually saying?

All possibilities to keep an eye on as you continue on with close reading.

As far as the timeline goes, JRRT was very careful with details such as the time-line, and tried to get it all correct during revision and editing and the construction of Appendix B. It seems that he never did quite make up his mind as to what exactly the Nazgul were doing in the three months between the Battle for the Bridge and the crossing of the Fords of Isen. We know this because he wrote two contradictory and incomplete versions (which can be found in Unfinished Tales). So, he was aware of the 3 month gap, and could have revised things to eliminate it. But he did not. He wanted that 3 month gap. He was just never sure exactly what transpired during it (from the Nazgul's point of view. We know what transpired with Gandalf and with Frodo.).
 
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Thank you again for another thoughtful response!

One particular passage from Gandalf strikes me is when he says:


>‘The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge, to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring'.

I think he's being genuine and that he believes this, and so he must believe that Sauron also believes this, and so I just can't quite imagine Gandalf not thinking Sauron would act quickly and decisively to find It once he discovers from Gollum that It still exists and is at large in Middle Earth.

Certainly I believe Sauron would fear it falling into the hands of the Wise, as we learn later he actually *does* fear and so accelerates his conquest plans. And merely because Gollum had it squirreled away and that "Baggins" had it in the "Shire" doesn't mean Sauron would presume it to be well hidden and out of reach or discovery of the Wise. Of course he would know that the White Council drove him out of Dul Goldur right around the time the Ring was found, and so they are active in the world while he (Sauron) is holed up in Mordor. He may even piece together that the Ring was found nearby to Dol Guldur. Heck, if we're trying to imagine Sauron connecting the dots, we might even think Sauron might believe that one of the Wise actually had found the Ring and, having it in their possession, were emboldened to strike at Dul Goldur.

Anyways, please note I'm not being critical. I love LotR and all things about it, and this advanced discussion is captivating.
 
High Lotrmith,

A couple of observations on that statement from Gandalf:

First, it is 'contradicted' by Elrond during the Council. When Galdor asks, "What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?" (Galdor is asking here in the context of defending the Ring in one of these strongholds against Ringless Sauron.) Elrond answers: "I have not the strength, neither have they." (Implying that Ringless Sauron does not need the Ring to defeat everyone.)

So, Gandalf and Elrond seem to disagree about whether Sauron needs the Ring in order to "break the last defences and cover all the land in a second Darkness." Who is right? My own guess is both both and neither. I guess Elrond is correct that the Elvish bastions cannot withstand Ringless Sauron. and Gandalf is right because while Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel might not be able to withstand Ringless Sauron, Providence will likely have its fingers on the scales as well. And I think that both are wrong, because Providence might be able to intervene enough to prevent even Sauron wearing the Ring from covering all the land in a second darkness (at least one that would last forever).

Second: Gandalf is directing this speech towards Frodo. He is directing his speech for an effect. The effect he is after is to highlight the crucial importance and danger of the Ring. If Gandalf were to say something like, "Sauron wants that Ring back for sure, but it is not his highest priority right now, so you probably have some time before you have to get it out of the Shire and into somewhere safer," that would not create as much concern and urgency in Frodo as he wants to create.

Now, it may be that regaining the Ring is Sauron's top priority. But, if so, then there are quite a few mysteries about Sauron's actions.

Why does Sauron take so long to begin seeking the Ring after he learns about it from Gollum?

Why does Sauron let Gollum 'escape' from Mordor?

What are the Riders doing for 3 months before they start galloping like mad towards the Shire?

Why do they suddenly start galloping like mad towards the Shire?

Puzzles like these are one of the great features of TLOTR. Close reading of TLOTR in the Exploring the Lord of the Rings class tends to reveal these puzzles and questions which are often passed over even when re-reading TLOTR multiple times.
 
A question on the nature of the Ring and Sauron:

As Gandalf, a Maiar himself, fears the Ring because of its influence and power to create an obsession, and given that we know the Ring kind of has a will of its own that is separate from Sauron (as evidenced and discussed in the course already), might not Sauron himself "suffer" from Ring-lust and want it as badly and seek it as feverishly as, say, Gollum does?
 
He might. I don't think there is a lot of evidence. On the one hand, as you reference, we see this effect on others. On the other hand, we know that Sauron left the Ring behind (in his safety deposit box in Barad-dur?) while he was off in Numenor for 57 years, corrupting the Numenoreans. So, he is apparently not totally obsessed with it.
 
Actually I'm fairly certain Sauron did take the Ring to Numenor!
>
  • Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning*: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most
    of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could.

  • "Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."
    [The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #211]
 
It is certainly subject to debate whether Sauron took the Ring to Numenor. It sort of depends on which sources one relies.

In the Alkallabeth, in the published Silmarillion it says: "[Sauron] was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure."

So, from the Alkallabeth, it is often inferred that since Sauron 'took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur' after escaping the downfall of Numenor, that the Ring must have been left behind in Barad-dur during Sauron's captivity in Numenor, to be 'taken up again' when he returned.

On the other hand:
From Tolkien's Letter #211:
"Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans."
Click to expand...
So, what should we interpret. Well, we know that JRRT often said contradictory things in his letters. He took the stance that he was an outside interpreter of his texts, rather than the authoritative source on what he really meant.

Now my own view is that we really should not treat either the Silmarillion nor the Letters, nor any other part of the Legendarium as canon. JRRT did not publish any of this. He did not publish because he was not satisfied. We know that he revised habitually and continuously before publishing. We know that many of his later and unfinished writings differed considerably from the published Silmarillion, but were not included by Christopher, because unfinished. We also know that only a very small percent of JRRTs letters have been published. Humphrey Carpenter (who edited and published over 300 of Tolkien's letters), said that he had to sift through 'literally thousands of letters, I mean thousands'. Carpenter also heavily edited some of the letters which he did publish (often to the detriment of JRRT), and is castigated by Holly Ordway, author of 'Tolkien's Modern Reading', as a biased, incompetent, and slapdash biographer and editor of the published 'letters'.

We know that JRRT often gave one interpretation of his works to one respondent, and a different interpretation to another. So it is difficult to credit any single JRRT letter as authoritative.

I prefer to ignore (or consider very tentatively) all Legendarium materials unpublished by JRRT, and all his letters, and base interpretation mostly on TLOTR alone. However, TLOTR says nothing about the whereabouts of the Ring during Sauron's captivity in Numenor. So, if we have to speculate, I preference the Alkallabeth, which JRRT did not publish, but which he did write to a state that he felt he could share with the Inklings in the 'Notion Club Papers', over his interpretations in his letters. I know that current Tolkien internet fandom tends to canonize the point of view of letter 211. I prefer the Alkallabeth.

However, I consider neither to be definitive.
 
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