Weapon & Armor systems; Tactical Styles in Middle Earth

Are they? Sauron seems to get out for a good long while. Not to mention, one has to consider the possibility of their craft being passed on.

Also, one gets the distinct feeling that most of the equipping of armies takes place there in Angband.
Did we decide if Sauron is the one to meet with the Men in Hildorien?

I’m getting that feeling too, since it’s not mentioned what happens in places that are sacked by Orcs. For example, Glaurung frightened all the Orcs away from the ruins of Nargothrond, and Gondolin was just plain burned to the ground. Orcs never seem to go back to Angband for supplies, mainly to drop off prisoners.
 
What are the supply lines during the Siege? It's said Morgoth had ways for his armies to get around the Noldor, to the north or something. But where are they getting things like food? I wonder if Morgoth just used his power to keep them all alive without adequate food, like he did to Hurin, and like Ulmo did with Tuor in the Rainbow Cleft.

After the Fifth Battle they had more opportunities for pillaging and hunting meat (both animals and people). I would think that if a Dragon doesn't take over, Orcs do pillage the places they conquer. They wanted to pillage Nargothrond, and I would think they pillaged Gondolin, after it burned. Glamdring and Orcrist got into Troll hands somehow.
 
The food supply would by best be explained by magic -i think. Pethaps morgoth had secret underground gardens or an articicial warm oasis somewhete hidden in his icy realm. I don't know...

But i do know that the weapon and equipment of angband should not be primitive and useless. It should be good quality and solidly made.and it should't look crappy and ineffective...
 
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Very interesting!

My question is, when do you more knowledgeable people think that the Noldor, Sindar, Edain, Dwarves, etc. first started using battlefield formations? I would imagine that they didn't have any such thing when they first experienced battle. It's stated in Unfinished Tales that the Numenoreans had a type spear-shaped formation at the time of the Last Alliance. At what time in-between were formations invented? Do you think Orcs ever used formations, or are they too unable to trust each other for that to work?

I know almost nothing about military tactics. But I do have something to add:
Ard-galen was a great grassland and on a large scale, it was probably fairly level. However, it was almost-certainly a steppe-tundra, since it was north of the treeline and just at the border of the arctic or subarctic Dor Daedeloth. Steppe-tundras, like arctic and alpine tundras today, had permafrost underneath them, and there was a fair amount of patterned ground. Patterned ground is uneven at small (and maybe medium) scales because of the movement of permafrost and surface-saturating ice during the autumn, winter, and spring. This creates hills (palsas and pingos), polygonal or circular blocks of land lower or higher than the surrounding land, linear and ring-shaped ridges, and wedges of ice which widen cracks and then melt away during the summer. Larger hills may develop terraced sides. Polygonal and circular features might be a few centimeters to hundreds of meters wide. Patterned ground also changes shape somewhat from one season to the next. In spring, some low-lying polygons fill with temporary ponds or bogs. Palsas and pingos may change elevation over the year. Different parts of patterned ground also have different plants growing.

Ancient horses seem to have done just fine on steppe-tundras, so I don't think it would hinder cavalry. But maybe it would affect the value of different infantry formation types.

After the Dagor Bragollach, all the plants died and it seems like the soil turned into ash or sand. I'm not sure. But if Anfauglith was sand spread over a shifting permafrost base, I think it may have been pretty treacherous ground to fight on. I also wonder if any parts of Anfauglith had a lava rock or glass surface.

I don't know what Dor Daedeloth itself was. Maybe "polar desert" but I don't know what that is.
 
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My question is, when do you more knowledgeable people think that the Noldor, Sindar, Edain, etc. started using battlefield formations? I would imagine that they didn't have any such thing when they first experienced battle. It's a stated fact that the Numenoreans had a type spear-shaped formation at the time of the Last Alliance. At what time in-between were formations invented? Do you think Orcs ever used formations, or are they too unable to trust each other for that to work?


So, in our story, we had the Fëanorians developing formation warfare more or less in secret while they are at Formenos. This was done, in part, to give them something to do, but also to give the audience something other than "Informed Awesomeness" to remember when we see the Fëanorians demolishing the numerically superior orc armies when they first arrive in Beleriand.

For the rest of the Noldor, I don't think they really start catching on until much later, maybe by the Dagor Bragollach. Simple formations like a wedge have been used since the bronze age, so coming up with formations isn't hard. The tough part is having an organized enough society to have disciplined soldiers who can hold those formations and form them on command. For example, the Celts often used formations on Roman armies, but they would often break up upon contact with the more disciplined legionaries. Also, the Romans were able to change formations on the fly, making them more adaptable on the field. I think that by the time we reach the Nirnaeth, the Noldor will have reached the level of the High Middle Ages, able to execute complex maneuvers with specialized units. This has to do with their longevity as well as their focus.

Men, when they arrive, will be used primarily as auxiliary skirmishers. Unable to devote as much of their population to soldiery as the elves, their ranks will be made up primarily of non-professional soldiers with minimal training. We likely won't see humans reaching very high levels of battlefield discipline until the second age.

One of the things we have realized is that there are some specific "dark ages" in Middle Earth's history. Not everyone is affected, but those who are not tend to live in sheltered enclaves. The first dark age takes place after the Nirnaeth. The Noldor kingdoms are scattered, leaving vast expanses of Beleriand populated only by semi-permanent settlements of humans. Numenor and the coastal kingdoms of the elves eventually rise up and form great cultures. Sauron's rise with the power of the rings weakens the elvish kingdoms, though, so a second dark age follows the fall of Numenor. There is another buildup to the Last Alliance, after which the kingdom of Arnor disintegrates, the kingdom of Gondor decays, and the kingdom of Lindon diminishes, forming the third dark age. This lasts more or less until War of the Ring and the Fourth Age.
 
Suggestion for ambush tactics for Sauron's catch and release program: Tevildo appears first, herding Elves towards Sauron who has traps, or Thurwingwethil will snatch them up.
 
I don't know if Sauron needs this kind of industrial hunting system for this, especially since some of the elves we're talking about wouldn't just be hanging out in the woods waiting to get herded. I think the method kind of depends upon the situation we put the elves into when they are captured, and they may not all be captured the same way.
 
I don't know if Sauron needs this kind of industrial hunting system for this, especially since some of the elves we're talking about wouldn't just be hanging out in the woods waiting to get herded. I think the method kind of depends upon the situation we put the elves into when they are captured, and they may not all be captured the same way.
I was thinking up a method of capture that wasn't during a battle, per se. The Hosts suggested using just Tevildo, which I'm not sure would work since... cats don't have opposable thumbs. Or is Tevildo a shapeshifter?
 
I'm not certain one needs opposable thumbs to take someone captive, firstly. One can take someone captive under threat of harm, for example. Secondly, I think Tevildo would need opposable thumbs to perform his duties as chief torturer of Angband. I know he had something of a sojourn last season, but I'd prefer not to forget what his main role is meant to be in our adaptation.
 
Cats are good hunters, as are bats. Shapeshifters/doppelgangers/shadowdemons can work with them by assuming for , spying and luring their prey into traps..

But i think such hunting tenchniques would be deployed to catch big-name elves...
normal no-name workers and women would be captured during raids on outposts, mining colonies, trade caravans or the like.
 
I'm not certain one needs opposable thumbs to take someone captive, firstly. One can take someone captive under threat of harm, for example. Secondly, I think Tevildo would need opposable thumbs to perform his duties as chief torturer of Angband. I know he had something of a sojourn last season, but I'd prefer not to forget what his main role is meant to be in our adaptation.
To be honest, I don’t know what he does.
 
Crazy idea I had, building off the quarterback analogy on the Caranthir thread ;) and making the Angband forces during the Dagor Bragollach like a 4-3 defense in football but with everyone rushing the "quarterback": what if we had each commander from Angband and their forces like defensive linemen: Gothmog assailing Dorthonion, Sauron attacks down Sirion, Glaurung attacks the east and Boldog Mithrim and Hithlum? Then there's three Balrogs acting like linebackers (let's call the middle guy Lungorthin) and smaller companies of Orcs on the sides and in the back to mop up?
 
There are certainly similarities between ancient warfare and football plays. Angband's strategy in the Dagor Bragollach seems like it relies heavily on a very strong center to drive the Elves and their allies into disarray.
 
There are certainly similarities between ancient warfare and football plays. Angband's strategy in the Dagor Bragollach seems like it relies heavily on a very strong center to drive the Elves and their allies into disarray.
And I’m sitting imagining Gothmog as a nose tackle in a 3-4 scheme (three defensive linemen, four linebackers).
 
I don't know man...

I always thought American football and rugby were about using your body as a weapon... a thing you would want to avoid when getting pierced or cut with a spear or sword is actually a real and mortal thing!

Modern riot police tactics might come close, but they are luckily not about killing your opponent ..

 
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I don't know man...

I always thought American football and rugby were about using your body as a weapon... a thing you would want to avoid when getting pierced or cut with a spear or sword is actually a real and mortal thing!

Modern riot police tactics might come close, but they are luckily not about killing your opponent ..


Obviously there are differences, but the tactics can be similar under some circumstances. You still need bodies in the way to prevent the opponent from encircling or getting through your lines.
 
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