When lies are not lies...

[Timdalf]

Well, aside from all the hair-splitting attempts to avoid giving the lie to the lies of various characters in Tolkien -- provoked by a listener question about why Gandalf did not lie to Saruman -- my example of one BIG lie, is the march of Aragorn and Co on Mordor as a diversion to give Frodo and Sam a chance to make it through Mordor... Yes? No? And I do not subscribe to this not using the enemy's means is always to be strictly adhered to... The ultimate classic example is Jesus Christ fooling the devil with His humanity to achieve Salvation. This is an old trope among Church Fathers.... It is an out and out deception. And exacctly parallle to Aragorn's march on Mordor...

 

[amysrevenge]

Hmm. This is a hard one to get to. At what point is a diversion a lie? At what point is you counting on your foe to misinterpret your actions a lie?

Would a swordsman who makes a feint be dishonest? He is indicating that a strike is about to fall in one location, only to actually strike in another. What a liar!

 

[Timdalf]

Well said,... I think letting an evil enemy (and the operative word is "evil") fall into his own ditch is a very laudable bit of misdirection... Letting a liar believe his own lies is only a teachable moment! Not an ethical infraction.

 

[Jim Deutch]

aside from all the hair-splitting attempts to avoid giving the lie to the lies of various characters in Tolkien

I think it's pretty clear that Gandalf has no problem with lying (depending on your exact definition, of course). Faramir claims he would not lie even to an Ork, but the example of a feint in battle is a good one: he would totally do that! It is a thorny issue.

This is an old trope among Church Fathers

I'll just bet it is! And with 47 different flavors, no doubt, most of which have spawned heresies of one sort or another. I think I'll keep my distance.

 

[Timdalf]

Yes, given your cynical attitude to the CONSENSUS of the Church Fathers, not a bad idea that you do! Promulgators of heretical distortions and denials of Orthodox Church teaching are by definition NOT Church Fathers... They are known by their coherence to the consistent Orthodox (capital O) teachings of the Apostles and Fathers... who are of one mind and one heart to those with eyes to read and ears to hear (their services and other writings). This unity as Alexis Khomiakov so perceptively noted is the primary sign of Truth and why the Orthodox Church is in fact one... This is one of the great miracles of Orthodox Christianity. It's absence in the West is one of the prime indicators of the fall of Western Christianism... continuing down to our day with self-appointed "scholars" who presume they are "theologians"! Meanwhile, back to our topic... I merely cited this theological trope among many Church Fathers as a illustrative example -- I could also have cited the famous incident with Isaac blessing Jacob which merely confirmed that Esau had already sold his birthright to Jacob... it behooves self-appointed moral perfectionists to tread carefully indeed.

 

[MithLuin]

Generally, the way that the trope plays out is that one speaks a literal truth, but with the clear intent to deceive an enemy. So, one can avoid the charge of lying (nothing said was a falsehood), but one can also, say, protect innocents from pursuit by soldiers, etc, by making statements intended to mislead.

Example: A holy man of God is traveling by boat on a river. A boat of soldiers comes up behind them, shouting that they are searching for someone. The person they are searching for. . .is aboard the first boat. The holy man calls back to them, "He's just ahead of you. If you hurry, you will catch him!" The soldiers thank him and continue their pursuit.

Technically, no lie was uttered....but deceit was clearly intended.

 

[Jim Deutch]

Yes, given your cynical attitude to the CONSENSUS of the Church Fathers

Sorry; I missed the initial caps on "Church Fathers" and was thinking instead more of "would-be theologians".

I may be just as cynical as you think I am, but I do make an effort not to offend religious belief in others, and I failed this time: I apologize. It was an error, especially since I "know" you pretty well from these fora and should have discerned the clues better.