Whoops! Script Discussion S04E10

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
SilmFilm S4Ep10: Dreams and Portents Script Outline Notes


Protagonist: Finrod or Maedhros?

Conflict: Plans for the future - Sindarin/Quenya - ban - Ulmo’s Dream - Siege of Angband




TEASER: Oropher’s gates are dragon-proof because of the runes built into them...runes with Quenya messages of protection.


Act I - Summer


  1. Minas Tirith. Aftermath of Battle. Fingon, Finrod, Aegnor, and Fëanoreans present, cleaning up. Sindar, led by Beleg and Mablung, arrive. Awkwardness over late arrival. Fingolfin greets them and accepts their explanation over background muttering. Diplomacy - thanks for the effort and willingness to come to our aid.
  2. Maedhros and Mablung discuss Siege in Sindarin. Mablung has a nascent respect for this guy, despite the reputation of the Fëanoreans. Amras pipes up in Quenya, and Maedhros does not rebuke him. Mablung remarks on the lax enforcement of the Ban among the kinslayers. Maedhros comments on the limits of Thingol’s power. The disagreement between Amras and Mablung becomes heated enough to draw attention. Fingolfin gets involved. He affirms his insistance on the Noldor following the Ban as High King of the Noldor. Maedhros acknowledges that he will follow the High King’s directive, and that his people will as well.
  3. Mountains east of Tol Sirion. Cairns of Angrod and Edhellos. Orodreth, Celebrimbor, and Meril make their way down from the mountain after paying their respects. Maedhros (who has also lost a brother and father) comes up later, expressing condolences to Angrod who is waiting by the gravesides. He sees that Aegnor has placed his broken sword in his brother’s cairn.
  4. Turgon deals with the aftermath of the battle in Vinyamar. He and Círdan and Galdor discuss in Sindarin and reaffirm their pledges of mutual assistance. Aredhel arrives with a message from Fingolfin. (She got lost on the way)
Act II - Fall

  1. Minas Tirith. Feanoreans and host of Fingolfin have departed. Aegnor and the people of Dorthonion are leaving. Finrod and Orodreth stay.
  2. Mithrim. Fingolfin calls Fingon and Turgon to Mithrim to discuss the Siege of Angband. He discusses his concerns - the vulnerability of Dorthonion and precariousness of Minas Tirith. He is worried for the safety of his people. He sends Turgon to Finrod and Fingon to Aegnor and Maedhros.
  3. Himring. Mini-Fëanorean council. Brothers are discussing how awesome they were in battle. Maedhros is concerned by the unpreparedness of the other Noldor. Celegorm is dismissive - who cares if they are too stupid to be prepared? Maedhros insists that they can not do this alone. Curufin can suggest sending aid in the form of each of the brothers going as ‘emissaries’ to the other Noldor realms. Maedhros nixes that idea. He requests Caranthir send a messenger to his friend amongst the dwarves.
  4. Minas Tirith. Turgon helps Finrod rebuild the damaged gate-house. They discuss the future defences of Beleriand and their limitations. Are we really able to build anything strong enough to hold Angband off forever? Turgon chides him for his seeming defeatism. Finrod proposes a hunting trip when the weather breaks.
ACT III - Winter

  1. Frame: Forging dragon-proof doors in Erebor. Dwarf explains to Bilbo in Dale the process from the legendary dwarf craftsman Telchar.
  2. Belegost. Forging of Narsil. Runes on blade with Quenya message. Black metal ‘speckled’ throughout. Secret Khuzdul inscription on tang. Fëanorean jewel on pommel.
  3. Dorthonion. Aegnor is distraught and stressed. Fingon arrives and discusses the Siege and Fingolfin’s plans. Fingon invites Aegnor to come with him to Himring in the spring.
  4. Sirion. Finrod and Turgon set out on a hunting trip with snow still on the ground. They travel south along the river Sirion. They discuss Finrod’s view of hope - amdir vs estel. He explains to Turgon that he’s not defeatist - it’s just not about him.

ACT IV - Spring

  1. Vinyamar. Aredhel and Idril. Idril is looking at the statue of her mother in the throne room. Idril discusses her regret that her mother never reached Middle-earth. Aredhel leads her out to the balcony, and encourages her to look out over the Falathrim in the harbor. Their hope for their people is their future.
  2. Banks of Sirion. Finrod and Turgon go on a holiday trip south down the river. It is peaceful and scenic. Spring has arrived in full. They set up camp. Then, they have a dream….
  3. Himring. Gift-giving. Maedhros gives horses to Fingon, and the sword Narsil to Aegnor, as his pledge of mutual protection of Dorthonion during the Siege. Narsil is described as a blade made by the dwarven smith Telchar, and Maedhros reads out the (Quenya) inscription on the blade. Aegnor recognizes the jewel on the pommel as Fëanorean-made.
  4. Banks of Sirion. Ulmo’s vision. Scenes of disjointed battle and chaos and fire. Overview of the fortresses of the Noldor - but they are sandcastles. They burst into flame and turn to glass. They are washed away by a wave of blood, leaving jagged remnants behind and blood on the banners. It begins raining, and the blood washes away. The ruined cities are indentations that fill with water. As they watch, another bigger wave of blood approaches. Panicked, they reach out for a handful of water to save it from destruction. They seek desperately for a place to save it. Turgon finds a white pitcher on a pedestal. Finrod finds a stone basin. When the wave would break over them, instead they find themselves in the darkness alone with their vessel of water. They clutch the vessel of water in darkness and then…. They both wake up.
TAG: Thranduil, Dain, Bard, Gandalf, and Bilbo look at the document that caused the problem. Dwarves didn’t understand Oropher’s grievance, just that he didn’t want to pay for the gates because he doesn’t like the inscription. Bilbo realizes that the elven-king’s complaint was that the inscription was in Quenya.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Hmm... interesting! I mean that bit on the dragon-proof runes...

If Erebor had dragon-proof runes, then how could Smaug enter? If it had not, then why did notnthe dwarves have dpr doors if they knew the technique?

If dwarves and Noldor knew about dpr doors... why were not the gates of Nargothrond dpr?
And: could not an Orc or sorcerer-demon simply destroy or make the dprs ineffective via counterspell or sheer force?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The anti-dragon gate was coming from Moria in this version of the story. Erebor did not have that.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, but, why?
We discussed this in an earlier episode though it is possible the discussion didn't make it into our notes. The secret of the gates of Moria was lost to time, set down in a document with runes which would only be readable once in essentially a millenia.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Is it just me, or does it feel like the Sindar really shot themselves in the foot with the whole Ban thing since it doesn’t seem that Sindarin can do as much as Quenya when spoken? I mean, would the runes on the doors to Moria be as effective if written in Sindarin instead of Quenya?

Take the scene in the Jackson Fellowship of the Ring: Saruman is speaking in Quenya, while Gandalf is speaking in Sindarin, with Saruman overpowering Gandalf. Did Saruman win because he was speaking in Quenya, or was it because he was more powerful (at the time) than Gandalf?

Is it the steel, or the hand that wields it?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Is it just me, or does it feel like the Sindar really shot themselves in the foot with the whole Ban thing since it doesn’t seem that Sindarin can do as much as Quenya when spoken? I mean, would the runes on the doors to Moria be as effective if written in Sindarin instead of Quenya?

Take the scene in the Jackson Fellowship of the Ring: Saruman is speaking in Quenya, while Gandalf is speaking in Sindarin, with Saruman overpowering Gandalf. Did Saruman win because he was speaking in Quenya, or was it because he was more powerful (at the time) than Gandalf?

Is it the steel, or the hand that wields it?
I would say that the speaker is a big factor. For example, when Luthien brings down Sauron's tower or puts Morgoth to sleep, I doubt she is singing in Quenya.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
@angeleyes

I can't believe THAT! It is the essence of soul and creation which is basically the power of all magic, good and evil in middle-earth... and that is also how runes and artifacts work... the artist/magician knows a way how to work with the matter of arda in a very good and skilled way and he puts something of himself in it...

Doesn't matter in what form of language he does that! Well... no doubt some languages have their very own properties which are different than others,,the Black speech for example! But Quenya and Sindarin are BOTH Eldarin languages...
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
The frame for this episode is basically what I suggested for Episode 8:

The method of making dragon-proof gates was developed by the Dwarves of Moria in cooperation with the Elves of Hollin and used for the gates of Moria. Oropher, who was king of the Woodland Realm at the time, commissioned the Dwarves of Moria to make dragon-proof gates for his halls. He pays the dwarves in installments as they work on the gates. The final touch on the gates is an inscription in Quenya. Oropher did not realize the inscription would be in Quenya, so he is outraged when the Dwarven craftsmen show him the completed gates and they are covered in the language of the Kinslayers. Oropher would be particularly sensitive to this because he was in Doriath when the Second Kinslaying happened and may have lost friends or family in the attack. The Dwarves cannot change the inscription to Sindarin because the magic would not work the same, so Oropher refuses to pay the final installment and throws the craftsmen out. Thranduil was elsewhere in Middle-earth when all of this happened, and Oropher did not speak of it to his son because he quickly began to appreciate the gates despite the Quenya inscription.

The document that had the Moon-letters is biased from a Dwarven perspective and only cryptically refers to what Oropher was upset about. It might say he refused to pay them because he "disliked the language used in the inscription" or something to that effect, which Thranduil would not realize referred to Quenya and Dain would see as a pointless quibble about a magic inscription that cannot be altered because he would not understand or may not even know about the ban or its implications.

The frame scenes for this episode can focus on tense negotiations as the kings trying to figure out exactly what the ancient conflict described in the document is now that the hostage situation has ended.

Beginning scene: Negotiations with Thranduil, Dain, Bard, Gandalf, and Bilbo. Dain is demanding payment. Thranduil is insisting that his father would only refuse payment if there was a just cause. Bard says let's find out what the cause is, but they do not know how to do this. Thranduil does not remember the incident because he was not there for it. Gandalf is certain the answer can be found in the document. The cryptic hint about the language makes Bilbo think back to when he saw the gates in Mirkwood. He confides in Gandalf that something about them seemed odd, but he can't put his finger on it.

Ending scene: Bilbo has a eureka moment in the middle of the negotiations. He realizes that the inscriptions were in Quenya and extrapolates the reason Oropher did not pay for them. The issue is finally understood, but Dain still demands payment, so the hostilities are not resolved.
We're adding a frame scene in Act III in which Bilbo speaks to another Dwarf he knew from his quest about how the construction of the gates is going back at Erebor. This Dwarf explains that he has been working on the Quenya inscriptions, a technique handed down from Telchar herself (who probably learned Quenya from the Feanorians). This scene serves as an introduction for the scene of Telchar forging Narsil.
 
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