Why does Boromir not stop in Isengard on his journey north to find Imladris?

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
So, leaving close reading for a while, why not enter into speculation? (Although there may be evidence that I have not discerned to apply to this question.)

Why does Boromir not stop in Isengard on his journey north to find Imladris?

It would seem an obvious place to ask for directions. It is not far out of the way.

OK, Isengard is slightly out of the way if Boromir’s journey was through Rohan, towards the gap of Rohan, and then north up the west side of the Misty Mountains. Still, Gandalf, Theoden and company made the ride from Helm’s Deep to Isengard in a day and a half. For Boromir, travelling faster than an entire troop, travelling less than half the distance between Helm's Deep and Isengard, it should have delayed him less than a day to veer north to Isengard, then south again to clear the southern end of the Misty Mountains. Such a slight detour, should have been well worth it if intelligence about the route north, and possible intelligence about the location of Imladris could have been gained. Also, one might think that it would be almost a duty of Boromir to stop in at Isengard. After all, Saruman held Isengard as a vassal of Gondor. Isengard was Gondorian (not Rohan) territory, which had been granted to Saruman, but, when was the last time a high official of Gondor had checked in on Isengard. If Boromir was going to pass near it, one would have thought that both duty and courtesy, and aid for his quest would have compelled him to visit.

Of course, had Boromir visited Isengard, the consequences would probably have ranged from bad to disastrous, given what we know about Saruman at this time.

So, since it is reasonable that Boromir should have stopped in Isengard, why didn’t he?

Did Boromir even journey through Rohan and the Gap of Rohan? Or did he travel South of the White Mountains until he reached their western end, and then turned north? Why would he have done this? It would seem a longer route. Is there any evidence in the text as to which route he took?

My own speculation is that Denethor told Boromir to steer clear of Isengard. And, that this was not due to some generalized Denethorian suspicion of wizards, but probably due to Denethor’s insights, gleaned from his use of the Palantir, that Saruman was not to be trusted.

Any evidence to support this speculation?

Any other speculations?
 
There is this evidence from Book 2 Chapter 4 A Journey in the Dark
`The road may lead to Moria, but how can we hope that it will lead through Moria? ' said Aragorn darkly.

`It is a name of ill omen,' said Boromir. `Nor do I see the need to go there. If we cannot cross the mountains, let us journey southwards, until we come to the Gap of Rohan, where men are friendly to my people, taking the road that I followed on my way hither. Or we might pass by and cross the Isen into Langstrand and Lebennin, and so come to Gondor from the regions nigh to the sea.'

'Things have changed since you came north, Boromir,' answered Gandalf. 'Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over. But the Ring must not come near Isengard, if that can by any means be prevented. The Gap of Rohan is closed to us while we go with the Bearer.

and then from Book 2 Chapter 8 Farewell to Lórien
'Boromir, and any that go with him seeking Minas Tirith, will do well to leave the Great River above Rauros and cross the Entwash before it finds the marshes. Yet they should not go too far up that stream, nor risk becoming entangled in the Forest of Fangorn. That is a strange land, and is now little known. But Boromir and Aragorn doubtless do not need this warning.'

'Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith,' said Boromir. `But what I have heard seems to me for the most part old wives' tales, such as we tell to our children. All that lies north of Rohan is now to us so far away that fancy can wander freely there. Of old Fangorn lay upon the borders of our realm; but it is now many lives of men since any of us visited it, to prove or disprove the legends that have come down from distant years.

`I have myself been at whiles in Rohan, but I have never crossed it northwards. When I was sent out as a messenger, I passed through the Gap by the skirts of the White Mountains, and crossed the Isen and the Greyflood into Northerland. A long and wearisome journey. Four hundred leagues I reckoned it, and it took me many months; for I lost my horse at Tharbad, at the fording of the Greyflood. After that journey, and the road I have trodden with this Company, I do not much doubt that I shall find a way through Rohan, and Fangorn too, if need be.'
emphasis added

The only information we get of settlements within Rohan, in the published text, place these in the foothills of the White Mountains, including the Beacon Hills. As Rohan is a separate realm, even if allied, it would be most politically astute to follow this road, stopping in Edoras for supplies and information, minimising any chance of being accused of spying in these times of uncertainty.

As much as Denethor might be disdainful of wizard's in general, or Denethor's use of the Palantír could lead him to advise Boromir to avoid Isengard, it is suggested in the text that Denethor's lore studies lead him to being able to give Boromir directions to the vicinity of Imladris without need of further advice.
From Book 2 Chapter 2 The Council of Elrond
Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters. Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay.'

Boromir does not talk about needing to stop for directions to Imladris (a name that isn't commonly used amongst Men) in Dunland or the Enedwaith, and it seems unlikely that he'd find any help in that regard anyway (doubt and danger); yet he does arrive there: From Tharbad you just follow the Greyflood upstream until it forks, and you take the eastern fork (the Bruinen) until you get to the Ford and start looking for Elves. This much is likely to have been held in the records of Gondor for Denethor to relate to Boromir.

If Denethor had advised Boromir to avoid Isengard (and Saruman) then Boromir might have taken the longer road through Lebennin for added safety, and he probably wouldn't later propose a plan that takes the fellowship straight past Saruman's door.
 
Hi Anthony,

Thanks for the reference indicating that Boromir travelled to Imladris via the Gap of Rohan. This makes it all the more curious why he did not pop in to Isengard for intelligence and advice.

I don't think that Denethor gave Boromir very clear directions to Imladris. " Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond AND Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." All he knows is that it was the name of a 'far northern dale' (though, whether by research or by guess, Boromir does look on the correct side of the Misty Mountains). By the way, you mis-quote Boromir, reporting Denethor's words, by one word. Denethor does not say 'where Elrond THE Halfelven dwelt'. He says, "Where Elrond AND Halfelven dwelt", indicating pretty clearly his lack of much detailed knowledge about Imladris.

We have other good evidence that Boromir does not have good directions to Imladris. It takes him 110 days to find the place! It only takes Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli 80 days to reach Minas Tirith from Imladris. And that includes tarrying in Lothlorien for 31 days, as well as taking a wide detour through Rohan, Isengard, and the Paths of the Dead.

If the Company (or some of the Company) had spent say only two days in Lothlorien, and then gone directly from Parth Galen to Minas Tirith (say a journey of about 8 days - It ony took Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas about 4 days to cover a similar distance, from Parth Galen to Fanghorn, but they were running.) Then it would have taken 61 days for the trip from Imladris to Minas Tirith. Boromir's trip (though by a different route, and using different means of transportation) should have taken about that long. So, that it took 110 days, indicates that he did not have very clear directions.

We know that Saruman 'takes up his abode' in Isengard in 2759 (Appendix B). So, he has lived there for 260 years when Isengard falls to the Ents. But, Saruman did not just wander in to a deserted Isengard, and start living there. "Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him leave, for Gondor still claimed Isengard as a fortress of its realm, and not part of Rohan. Beren also gave into Saruman's keeping the keys of Orthanc... In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. (Appendix A)"

So, Saruman was a vassal of the Stewards of Gondor. For Boromir to pass right by Isengard without stopping should seem, in feudal and Medieval terms, to be discourteous, and also a neglect of duty. The Lord (heir to the Lord) should not pass by the holding of a mighty (though remote) vassal without paying his vassal the honor of a visit. He should also not pass by a remote but important fief of the realm without an inspection.

Plus, of course, the Lords of Gondor considered Saruman to be Wise. For Boromir to pause on his journey to seek the wisdom of Saruman would also seem both wise and obvious. Even if Saruman did not know where Imladris exactly was, he would surely know lots about the lands and roads to the north and west, being considerably closer to them than Minas Tirith was.

Boromir, however, does not stop in Isengard. If he had, who knows what might have happened? Boromir set out from Minas Tirith on the 4th of July. Six days later, on the 10th of July, Gandalf was imprisoned in Orthanc by Saruman. Where might Boromir have been on the 10th of July. Well, it took Theoden 10 days to travel from Isengard to Minas Tirith. That included a side trip to Dunharrow, the Muster of Rohan, and delays in the Firienwood. Boromir, travelling faster, without an army, even if he made a brief stopover in Edoras, was probably very close to Isengard and the Gap of Rohan on the 10th of July.

But, he didn't go there.

Why?

There are a range of possibilities:

1. He never thought to go there.

2. He planned to go there, but some incident of Chance ('if chance you call it') diverted him.

3. He thought to go there, but decided not to.

I think that 1. seems unlikely. 2. is certainly possible. If 3. then I speculate that Denethor counseled him not to (who else could have?), and, if so, it was likely because Denethor was uneasy about Saruman. Why might he have been uneasy about Saruman? Perhaps because of things he had seen in the Palantir. Gandalf says, "He saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see." But, 'oft evil will shall evil mar'. Denethor was shrewd, and even among those things which he was permitted to see, he might have seen enough to counsel Boromir to avoid Isengard.
 
I think Denethor is naturally inclined to distrust, and his slow corruption via the Palantir has probably only increased his distrust of others. Just on principle, he might shun the advice of Saruman, a fairly mysterious presence now wholly outside the borders of Gondor no matter what the old maps say.
 
Flammifer,

I don't have my print copies at hand as I'm travelling, but my electronic copy is what I quoted, not misquoted. From internet research, it appears that Denethor's words vary with edition. This then raises questions regarding the correct printed version, as 'Elrond the Halfelven' doesn't support the conclusion you've drawn from 'Elrond and Halfelven'; then again, 'Elrond and Halfelven' could still be correct as there seems to be a total of four people left in Middle-Earth who can be designated as such and the other three are his children. But the ignorance you appear to confer on someone renowned for their study of lore seems unjustified; Elrond Half-Elven is relevant to the lore of Gondor, having been instrumental in its deliverance from Sauron at the turn of the Age.

I also call your travel calculations into question on one very important point: The trip down the Anduin by boat allowed the fellowship to cover ground much faster than travelling on foot. Keep in mind that rivers in Medieval times were the equivalent of freeways in modern times, especially when travelling downstream.
Travelling on the river at an average of 5 miles per hour for 12 hours a day (not an unreasonable estimate) would allow them to cover 600 miles in ten days. As the Anduin is approximately 1400 miles long, this is in the ballpark. Also the fellowship carried enough food to get Frodo and Sam at least to Ithilien with a little Lembas left over.
Boromir, travelling alone up the path of a river on foot, potentially needing to backtrack from dead-end paths to find his way through unfamiliar territory, taking time out to forage or hunt (as he lost his horse at Tharbad and presumably most, if not all, of the food he was carrying) and to find a safe place to spend each night (with no-one to keep watch while he slept), probably averaged no more than 10 miles forward progress a day (taking at least 50 extra days to cover the same distance); this easily explains him taking such a long time without definitively supporting a claim of not knowing where his destination was.

The fact that Saruman has been in Isengard for 260 years actually potentially argues against your idea. Expanding on Big Mike's statement:
If Saruman had been receiving frequent visits from Gondorian nobility it would seem like a bad idea to openly turn the ring of Isengard into a war camp full of Orcs and Wargs.
On the other hand, if he had unsupervised access to the place for the last two centuries he would feel like he owned the place and was free to make changes as he saw fit, with no chance of the landlord dropping in and complaining about the redecoration choices. This would only happen if the Gondorian leadership had de-facto ceded ownership to Saruman. This choice is understandable as it would seem to them that there would be more to be gained from maintaining a close relationship with the nation of warriors living next door in the big house they gave them, than the cranky old man in the flat at the end of the street that stopped paying rent years ago, if you'll forgive the metaphors.

Regarding the perception of Saruman's wisdom by the Lords of Gondor, I'm inclined to agree (again) with Big Mike: Denethor seems inclined to distrust generally, and anything sketchy on the part of Saruman that he saw in the Palantír would be likely to reinforce that distrust.
I don't think that is as relevant as Boromir's tendency toward maintaining self-reliance. He seems like the sort to resist stopping to ask for directions, no matter how much his wife suggests it.

Of your three possibilities I find 1. the most likely.
 
Hi Anthony,

Interesting that some editions of TLOTR may say 'Elrond the Halfelven', rather than 'Elrond and Halfelven'. My edition is the Twelfth Impression, printed in Great Britain in 1962. I would be interested to know if you or anyone else know more about a variation between editions in this passage? When did it occur? Does anyone know why? Was Tolkien involved when the change was made?

Denethor's full statement (in my edition) is, "This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." I think the plural, in 'greatest of lore-masters' is also important in indicating that Denethor assumes that 'Elrond', and 'Halfelven', are two different people, two different lore-masters. Sure it could be read as 'Elrond Halfelven - greatest of lore-masters (implying greatest across time), but it sounds a lot like 'Elrond and Halfelven were the two greatest lore-masters. Which would buttress the case that he does not know much about Imladris, and does not know anymore about its location than Boromir said he knew.

On the subject of travel calculations, I tried to take into account the fact that boats were part of the transport system for the Company. (The trip down Anduin from Lothlorien to Parth Galen). Now, as far as I can see, travel by boat made up less than 1/4 of the total journey distance (judging by the endplate maps). No doubt that travel by boat should be faster than travel by foot. Boromir, however, travelled more than 2/3 of his journey by horse, and less than 1/3 by foot (whereas the distance travelled by horse by the company to Parth Galen, and then theoretically to Minas Tirith, would have been none.). I reckoned roughly that the advantage Boromir gained from horse travel, and the advantage the Company gained from boat travel more or less offset each other.

Also, judging by the end plate maps, the length of the Anduin from Lothlorien to Parth Galen is about 1/4 to 1/5 of the total length of the Anduin. So, if the Anduin is 1,400 miles long (where did you get that estimate?) then I don't think the voyage in Elven canoes could have been 600 miles. 280 miles to 350 miles would be my estimate (based on your 1,400 mile length). This journey takes them 9 days by calendar, but they leave in late afternoon of the first day, and arrive fairly early on the eighth night. So it really takes them only slightly more than 7 days. If we use 7 days, then they average 40 - 50 miles per day by my estimate of the distance. That is quite good going for canoes. So, I guess that travelling by canoe, they probably saved 6 - 8 days versus travel by foot. However, Boromir saved at least that much time by completing 2/3 of his journey by horse rather than by foot.

Let's calculate Boromir's journey a different way.

First leg: Minas Tirith to the Gap of Rohan: We know that Theoden made this journey in reverse in 10 days, with a detour to Dunharrow, time for the Muster of Rohan, and delays in the Firien Wood. I guess that Boromir, on horse should do this in say 6 days, maybe 7?

Second leg: Gap of Rohan to the Fords of the Greyflood at Tharbad. This leg is shorter than the first leg according to the endplate map, but there may be no roads, or fewer roads, less help, and more detours. Still let's say it should take Boromir say 15 days. (Gandalf does this leg, actually even longer than this leg, from Edoras to Tharbad, in 5 days. Of course, he is on Shadowfax.)

Third leg: Tharbad to Imladris. This is about the same distance as the second leg, if Boromir had just gone up the Greyflood, up the Hoarwell, up the Bruinen, to Rivendell. OK, even fewer roads and wilder country than the second leg, so, let's give him twice as much time (if on horse) so 30 days. He should have reached Imladris in circa 52 days.

However, Boromir would not have needed to lose his horse, crossing the Greyflood, if he had known where he was going. You don't need to cross the Greyflood to get to Rivendell. This indicates to me, that he was probably heading on up the Greenway, towards Bree, and then, perhaps, east on the Dwarf Road towards Rivendell. This would explain why he might reckon his journey as 400 leagues (1200 miles) in 'Farewell to Lorien', whereas, I don't think it should have been anywhere near this long. Travelling via Bree, would have made leg 3 the longest of the 3 legs by a considerable distance. And, of course, Boromir had lost his horse, so was now on foot. It takes Gandalf 21 days from Tharbad to Rivendell via this basic route,, with a detour into the Shire, a battle on Weathertop, a detour into the Trollshaws, abandoning Shadowfax after Weathertop, and having to complete the last 14 days of the journey on foot. It takes Boromir, I guess, about 88 days from Tharbad to Rivendell. Of course he is on foot. But it should not take so long. I guess he takes this long because he does not really know where he is going.

Speed comparison leg 1: Gandalf and Pippin, on Shadowfax, Isengard to Minas Tirith: 4 days, going at top speed. Theoden, on horse, going from Isengard to Minas Tirith with detours and army: 10 days. Boromir, on horse, Minas Tirith to Isengard: estimate 6 or 7 days.

Speed comparison leg 2: Gandalf, on Shadowfax, at speed, Edoras to Tharbad, 5 days. Boromir, on horse, does not know the way as well as Gandalf, not pushing too hard, Gap of Rohan to Tharbad: estimate 15 days.

Speed comparison leg 3 (or part of leg 3): Gandalf, on Shadowfax, at speed, with detour to Bag End, Tharbad to Bree, 3 days. Boromir, on foot, plodding up the Greenway: Let's estimate 18 days.

Speed comparison leg 3b: Gandalf on Shadowfax until Weathertop, then long detour on foot through the Ettenmoors, Bree to Rivendell: 18 days. Aragorn and Hobbits, on foot, long detours off the road to avoid detection, Bree to Rivendell: 20 days. Boromir, on foot, on the road, Bree to Rivendell, should have been faster than the Hobbits. Let's say 16 days.

So, If Boromir had known where he was going, he should have got there in about 56 days by this estimate, not 110. (I still doubt Boromir's 400 league, or 1200 mile estimate, as at 56 days, that would imply an average of 21.4 miles per day. That is possible, but hard to keep up for 56 days.)

Last speed comparison: Isengard to Rivendell. Returning home after the War of the Ring, the large group takes 28 days, including 7 days spent sitting still at the western side of the Mountains of Moria, saying farewell to Celeborn and Galadriel. They were mounted. They did not go via Tharbad. They knew where they were going. They were not rushing. It only took 21 days of travel time from Isengard to Rivendell.

Really, if mounted, and not pushing, and knowing the best route, and the location of Rivendell, it should take about 30 days of travel time more or less to go from Minas Tirith to Rivendell. Boromir's 110 days indicates that he did not know where he was going, he wandered off track and got lost, or he had some horrible luck and mis-adventures along the way, or both.

I totally agree with you that Saruman feels that he owns Isengard, and that he has not had much interest from his overlords for quite a while. But, I very much doubt that Gondor felt that they had ceded ownership. Nation states just don't think that way. Denethor, in particular does not seem like one to think that way. Unless he had some reason not to, it would be perfectly in character for Denethor to say to Boromir, "Well, if your heart is set on this dubious quest in the hour of our need, you might as well stop by Isengard and see if you can get any directions or intelligence there. It will do no harm to subtly remind old Saruman that he is still our Lieutenant for Isengard, and Warden for Orthanc. Don't do anything overt. But it won't hurt to show him that he is still representing Gondor, and we take an interest in our fortresses."
 
Flammifer,

As Boromir seeks Imladris for the counsel of Elrond, (not Elrond and Half-Elven) it is clear to me that Denethor does not see 'Elrond and Half-Elven' as two separate people. This turn of phrase seems more to be an aid for any searchElrond doesn't even have to be considered the greatest of lore-masters of all time, just the greatest currently alive to be given the title 'greatest of lore-masters'.

Please spend more time on researching your theories and thoughts before posting, as having to go find the evidence that you can easily find yourself is not a good use of either my time or yours.
e.g. The final lines of Book 2 Chapter 9 are
The Company rested now for a while, drifting south on the current that flowed through the middle of the lake. They ate some food, and then they took to their paddles and hastened on their way. The sides of the westward hills fell into shadow, and the Sun grew round and red. Here and there a misty star peered out. The three peaks loomed before them, darkling in the twilight. Rauros was roaring with a great voice. Already night was laid on the flowing waters when the travellers came at last under the shadow of the hills.

The tenth day of their journey was over. Wilderland was behind them. They could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west. The last stage of the Quest was before them.
So, they took ten days. They didn't travel at the same speed the whole time, they might not have travelled 12 hours a day, and it took them a whole day to portage around the rapids. I didn't include all of that detail in my initial response, and for that I am remiss, but I maintain that the calculation holds.
The length of the Anduin was estimated at 1388 miles by Karen Wynn Fonstad in her Atlas of Arda, based on a careful examination of Tolkien's maps.

For your alternative calculation of Boromir's journey I believe you are glossing over certain details:
First Leg
From Book 5 Chapter 3
‘But we will speak no longer counsels of prudence. We will come. The weapontake was set for the morrow. When all is ordered we will set out. Ten thousand spears I might have sent riding over the plain to the dismay of your foes. It will be less now, I fear; for I will not leave my strongholds all unguarded. Yet six thousands at the least shall ride behind me. For say to Denethor that in this hour the King of the Mark himself will come down to the land of Gondor, though maybe he will not ride back. But it is a long road, and man and beast must reach the end with strength to fight. A week it may be from tomorrow’s morn ere you hear the cry of the Sons of Eorl coming from the North.

‘A week!’ said Hirgon. ‘If it must be so, it must. But you are like to find only ruined walls in seven days from now, unless other help unlooked-for comes. Still, you may at the least disturb the Orcs and Swarthy Men from their feasting in the White Tower.’
Théoden taking 10 days for his journey, whilst travelling in a host for a portion of the distance, was moving with great urgency in an attempt to reach MT in time. Boromir on the other hand, was journeying alone without such urgency driving him. The greatest driver to his urgency would be his food supplies. But I'll cede to your estimate of 6 or 7 days as it makes little difference.

Second Leg
Boromir himself admits that he hasn't been this far, however there are the remnants of the North Road, that is little used and called the Greenway around Bree. I think the most relevant factors delaying his travel here would be the lack of travelling companions to conduct night-watching duties (forcing him to spend more time selecting a safe place to pass the night), and the long road ahead of him through unfamiliar territory; prudence would require him to ride more slowly to avoid riding into trouble unknowingly. Again, the greatest driver to his urgency would be his food supplies. Shadowfax took 4 nights of riding (stopped, hiding by day) to travel from Isengard to Minas Tirith, a distance that we've already agreed would have taken Boromir at least twice as long to cover, although this was somewhat familiar territory for Boromir. Shadowfax never seems to not know where he is going or stepping and never seems to tire, so I would consider 15 days from the Fords of Isengard to Tharbad to be the lower limit for Boromir, possibly taking as long as 30 days.

Third Leg
Yes, let's give him at least twice as long to travel alone on foot through potentially hostile country completely unfamiliar to him, with a requirement to find his food. So, more like 50 to 70 days. Oh, and the entrance to Rivendell is hard to find, so searching the Trollshaws for that could have taken a couple of weeks alone.

This gets us credibly close to 110 days.

As for not needing to cross the Greyflood, travelling north on a ruinous road and then east on the Dwarf road to Imladris riding a horse is the far more prudent path to take. We see from the difficulties that the proto-fellowship had in navigating through the Trollshaws with Bill the Pony, that travelling off-road in unfamiliar territory is a good way to risk getting lost and can slow one down significantly. Following the river course only becomes more sensible when you are on foot, and even then we don't know that Boromir didn't follow the roads on foot. That would improve the terrain and navigation factors, at the expense of having to travel further. The only hint that we get that he might not have followed the roads on foot, is that he didn't mention Bree, or his inability to get a replacement horse there; Tenuous at best, so maybe he did.

Hit the word limit, so continuing in next post
 
Speed comparison
Using Gandalf's travels with Shadowfax as a guide for timings is fraught, as Gandalf knows the terrain he is travelling through the whole time, and Shadowfax is far from an ordinary horse. To suggest that Shadowfax at speed only outpaces Boromir on foot by a factor of 6 seems to either insult Shadowfax, or give Boromir more praise than he deserves. Also suggesting that Boromir should outpace the proto-fellowship through the Trollshaws ignores that he at least needs to find safe places to stay each night, even if he was able to replenish his food stocks (in Bree?) along the way.

So, If Boromir had known where he was going, he should have got there in about 56 days by this estimate, not 110. (I still doubt Boromir's 400 league, or 1200 mile estimate, as at 56 days, that would imply an average of 21.4 miles per day. That is possible, but hard to keep up for 56 days.)
So you disagree with the time for his travel, and then question his distance estimate based on this disagreement. Let us for a moment consider that he did take 110 days to travel 1200 miles, as he reports: A daily average of 10.9 miles over that distance with a portion on horseback seems extremely credible.

Really, if mounted, and not pushing, and knowing the best route, and the location of Rivendell, it should take about 30 days of travel time more or less to go from Minas Tirith to Rivendell. Boromir's 110 days indicates that he did not know where he was going, he wandered off track and got lost, or he had some horrible luck and mis-adventures along the way, or both.
We already know that he didn't know exactly where he was going and had some horrible luck and mis-adventures along the way.

I totally agree with you that Saruman feels that he owns Isengard, and that he has not had much interest from his overlords for quite a while. But, I very much doubt that Gondor felt that they had ceded ownership. Nation states just don't think that way. Denethor, in particular does not seem like one to think that way. Unless he had some reason not to, it would be perfectly in character for Denethor to say to Boromir, "Well, if your heart is set on this dubious quest in the hour of our need, you might as well stop by Isengard and see if you can get any directions or intelligence there. It will do no harm to subtly remind old Saruman that he is still our Lieutenant for Isengard, and Warden for Orthanc. Don't do anything overt. But it won't hurt to show him that he is still representing Gondor, and we take an interest in our fortresses."

The heir of the Steward travelling alone doesn't send the same message that a state visit would, and a state visit would involve an armed company of men and other retainers. Denethor wouldn't release such a group in the hour of need. Regarding Nation states thinking, they are not consistent in their stated positions, but are generally consistently pragmatic: you don't maintain a claim on what you don't believe you can hold by force if it doesn't hold enough value.

As a comparison, consider the British position in the Middle-East after WWII. The forces of the British Empire had been seriously reduced through years of war and so they abandoned a seemingly costly and low value portion of the world that they felt they couldn't adequately defend. If the size of the oil reserves in the region had been known earlier it might have changed their view. Compare this with the refusal to give Gibraltar to the Spanish; Gibraltar gives the British the opportunity to effectively deny access to the Mediterranean from the west, and they don't seriously expect armed forces from Spain to try to take it.

Isengard is actually of very little value to Gondor without a garrison, given its location. The hint is in the name: Isengard is meant to be a fortress that is extremely difficult to tsuccessfully assault, that guards the Fords of Isen from the north. Helm's Deep seems to be a companion fortress on the southern side that could provide supplementary forces from the south, able to attack the flank of any invaders that win their way across the Isen. All of this made sense before the population of Gondor was decimated by the canonical Great Plague (See Appendix A).
With Rohan guarding the Fords of Isengard their own way, and having possession of Helm's Deep, it renders Gondorian possession of Isengard of little benefit. So, rather than leave it empty the Steward gives it to Saruman and essentially gives him a title to justify it to other nobles who might complain. Fast forward 260 years, and it becomes even less likely that Gondor would demand anything of Saruman in his role as vassal. In fact a state visit could been seen as provocative, and a private visit unwelcome at best.
 
Well, you can, of course, come up with a variety of readings to support the contention that Boromir knew where Imladris was.

I suggest Occam's razor as a good principal to apply.

If Boromir says that Denethor did not know where Imladris was. And if the evidence suggests that people on horse who do know where it is and how to get there can make the journey from Minas Tirith to Imladris in about 30 days, taking it easy. Then the most obvious conclusion from Boromir taking 110 days is that he did not know where Imladris was, and Denethor did not know where Imladris was. Boromir went the wrong route, and spent considerable time looking.

As for how long it took the company to travel down the Anduin, you are correct that the text indicates 10 days, however, appendix B says that they left Lorien on the 16th of February, and arrived at Parth Galen on the 25th of February. That's 9 days. So the appendix and the text seem misaligned. The Company leave Lothlorien late in the day on the 16th, and then they spend one day (the day after Legolas shoots the Nazgul beast) portaging their boats around the rapids, and making very little distance (a mile and a half, according to the text). So the company were really travelling by boat for 8 days (discounting the portage day, and using the timetable of the Appendix), and the first of those days was short, as they left late in the day. So I said they canoed for a bit more than 7 days. As to why the text and the Appendix disagree whether the entire journey took 9 or 10 days, I don't have a clue. So it might be that they actually were in canoes on the river for a bit more than 8 days, rather than a bit more than 7 days.
 
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Denethor's full statement (in my edition) is, "This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." I think the plural, in 'greatest of lore-masters' is also important in indicating that Denethor assumes that 'Elrond', and 'Halfelven', are two different people, two different lore-masters.
My edition has the same text you quote, "Elrond and Halfelven". But I don't remember ever thinking that "Elrond" and "Halfeleven" were two different people. I have thought of it, instead, as two different titles, both referring to the same person, like "Lord and King". Of course, that's a bit nonsensical, since "Elrond" is just a name, not a title, but it seemed more plausible when I knew no Elvish whatever -- "Elrond" could have been a title in some Elvish language or other -- and even now I can maintain that idea, because, ya know, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds " [Ralph Waldo Emerson]. Still, it does stick out a bit, I must admit. I'm curious.

I tried to do a bit of research on the article, "and" vs. "the", in various editions of the book, but I'm at work and my security here blocks every single discussion of it, because they fall into either the "Movies" or the "Gaming" category of blocked sites. :(
Thank Eru that I can get into this forum, at least. Otherwise I'd have to just do my actual work!
 
As to why the text and the Appendix disagree whether the entire journey took 9 or 10 days, I don't have a clue.

No disagreement; it depends on how you're counting the days. If you're counting 24-hour periods, it's 9. If you're counting calendar dates, it's 10.

As an example, suppose I leave on a trip January 1 and arrive at my destination January 2. I could say that I arrived at my destination a day after I left, and therefore traveled 1 (24-hour) day. However, I could also say that I traveled some on each day, and therefore traveled 2 (calendar) days.
 
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My edition has the same text you quote, "Elrond and Halfelven". But I don't remember ever thinking that "Elrond" and "Halfeleven" were two different people. I have thought of it, instead, as two different titles, both referring to the same person, like "Lord and King". Of course, that's a bit nonsensical, since "Elrond" is just a name, not a title, but it seemed more plausible when I knew no Elvish whatever -- "Elrond" could have been a title in some Elvish language or other -- and even now I can maintain that idea, because, ya know, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds " [Ralph Waldo Emerson]. Still, it does stick out a bit, I must admit. I'm curious.

I tried to do a bit of research on the article, "and" vs. "the", in various editions of the book, but I'm at work and my security here blocks every single discussion of it, because they fall into either the "Movies" or the "Gaming" category of blocked sites. :(
Thank Eru that I can get into this forum, at least. Otherwise I'd have to just do my actual work!

Hi Jim,

I would be interested in what you might find on the question of the changing quote in different editions. Please post updates.

Your interpretation that Denethor meant one person with two titles ('Elrond' and 'Halfelven') is interesting. From the moment I first read this passage (a long time ago) I have always read it as indicating how vague and incomplete was Denethor's knowledge of Imladris, as I have always read it as Denethor mixing up various references which really applied to Elrond, as indicating two different people.
 
I only have access to two of the three printed copies I've owned, as the binding fell apart on the first copy I owned, and the first copy I read was borrowed from a library (37 years ago). I believe these were all British printings because that's how the book market generally works in Australia.

That said, the 1993 print and the 2012 print I still have both say 'the' and I don't recall ever reading it as 'and', so you can imagine my surprise when told I was misquoting (especially since I copied and pasted).

On the subject of two titles, I guess I don't have an untainted experience of reading it with 'and' but given that Elves don't recycle names (unlike Tolkien, which caused him some issues) it is perfectly reasonably to see Elrond as being a distinct title, even more so than King or Lord; In a given mortal realm there may only be one King at a time, but there is only one Elrond in the entire history of Arda.

On the subject of Denethor's knowledge, we don't know the limits of his knowledge regarding Elrond and Rivendell: All we have is Boromir's report
{QUOTE}Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters. Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay.'[/QUOTE} emphasis added

Even Boromir's report suggests that Denethor knew more. Now 'a far northern dale' doesn't even give you guidance as to which side of the Misty Mountains to look, let alone the secret to the location of Rivendell; For all we can gather from that description it could have Boromir heading to the town of Dale first. In the Hobbit, even Gandalf takes the best part of a day to find the entrance to the valley. Now, understanding that the Hobbit was written with a somewhat different mindset, and a less capable Gandalf, it is fair to say that someone who has never been in that part of the country before would take significantly longer than a day to find it.

When I apply Occam's razor it comes out this way:
We have no valid reason to believe that Boromir lied or exaggerated about the distance he travelled, or the time it took. It is reasonable to believe that Boromir would be judicious in what he relates, so he honestly relates the limits of what Denethor tells, without giving all of the details, Equally, he can spend time seeking guidance without being lost and going the wrong way.

People travelling on horseback can cover significantly more distance in a day than a lone walker even if they don't need to find their food or a bolthole to spend each night.

Once again I find myself arguing unsuccessfully against Flammifer's preconceptions and so will stop, also unmoved by contrary arguments.
 
Hi Anthony,

I was also surprised when you quoted the passage with 'the', as I had only encountered it with 'and'.

I wonder what the history of this change between editions was?
 
Hi Anthony,

I was also surprised when you quoted the passage with 'the', as I had only encountered it with 'and'.

I wonder what the history of this change between editions was?
My guess is that somebody realised that "Elrond and Halfelven" makes no sense whatsoever…
 
Why would 'Elrond and Halfelven' make no sense whatsoever? If there was one person named 'Elrond; and another person named 'Halfelven', it would make perfect sense.

It always has made sense to me in that Imladris and Elrond were so remote and legendary to Gondor, that one person had been confused into two, and the location of Imladris was vaguely known as 'a northern dale', and nothing more.

Consider also the statement about 'Elrond and Halfelven' as 'greatest of loremasters'. Sure, you could say of one person that they were the 'greatest of loremasters', but it is more concise to say 'greatest loremaster', if speaking of one person, whereas it would make more sense to say, 'greatest of loremasters' if you thought that two people were dwelling in Imladris.

I have checked all my editions of TLOTR. The 12th impression printed in Great Britain in 1962 has 'and' rather than 'the'. The 'Collectors Edition' (the first publication of the entire LOTR bound in one volume) copyright 1966 from George Allen and Unwin, has 'and' rather than 'the'. The unauthorized Ace paperback edition, published in the USA in (I think) 1965 has 'and' rather than 'the' (I bought this before I realized it was unathorized. Once I realized, I bought the Ballantine paperback edition, but it was read so often it disintegrated, so I no longer have it to see when it was published, and what word it used).

So, sometime between 1966 and the 1993 edition which Anthony Lawther cited, the word must have been changed. But why? And when? And by whom?
 
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Why would 'Elrond and Halfelven' make no sense whatsoever? If there was one person named 'Elrond; and another person named 'Halfelven', it would make perfect sense.

But there's not, so it doesn't.

Consider also the statement about 'Elrond and Halfelven' as 'greatest of loremasters'. Sure, you could say of one person that they were the 'greatest of loremasters', but it is more concise to say 'greatest loremaster', if speaking of one person, whereas it would make more sense to say, 'greatest of loremasters' if you thought that two people were dwelling in Imladris.

Unfortunately, this works both ways. If it's more concise to say "greatest loremaster" for one, it's also more concise to say "greatest loremasters" for two.

Personally, I think the simplest explanation is that it was a typo which went unnoticed for a while but was eventually fixed. I think this is strengthened by The Treason of Isengard, which shows the third version of this scene saying, "where Elrond the Half-elven dwelt" (pg 120). There's also the fourth version which says "where Elrond Halfelven dwelt" (pg 128).

I would also add that it would seem odd for there to be enough known about Elrond to remember that he is the best person to seek out at this time, while simultaneously forgetting enough that his title is considered a separate person. This is especially the case since, as far as I can see, nothing ever becomes of such a confusion, and it is never mentioned again by Boromir or anyone else.
 
Hi JJ48,

You are quite right that it is entirely possible that it is a typo. (Though a typo that went undetected for at least 12 years.) It is also possible that it was mistakenly 'corrected' by either C. Tolkien, or some editor at some point. I would be more convinced it was a typo if I knew that J.R.R. Tolkien changed it.

I don't have 'The Treason of Isengard' at hand. If you could give more details please, that would be helpful. Do those passages you quote seem to be from drafts preceding the final publication or subsequent? We know that Tolkien proof read carefully, and modified extensively before publication. So, I am inclined to believe that if he published 'and', the likelihood is that he meant 'and'. However, I suppose it is possible that even J.R.R. was not perfect, and an 'and' in the proofs, which he meant to be a 'the' might have slipped by him.

I don't think that anyone thought that Elrond was the best person to seek out at this time. Elrond is not mentioned in the Dream. Imladris is. Boromir is not seeking out Elrond. He is seeking out Imladris. Even Denethor seems to have no idea whether Elrond (or Elrond and Halfelven) are still present in Imladris. He only recalls that he (or they) 'dwelt' there once. If he thought they were still there, he should have said 'dwells'(or 'dwell' (too bad he didn't, as that would have told us if he was thinking of one person or two)). Denethor associates 'Imladris' with 'Elrond' and 'Halfelven' at some time in the past, but he does not seem to know if they are associated in the present.
 
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I don't have 'The Treason of Isengard' at hand. If you could give more details please, that would be helpful. Do those passages you quote seem to be from drafts preceding the final publication or subsequent? We know that Tolkien proof read carefully, and modified extensively before publication. So, I am inclined to believe that if he published 'and', the likelihood is that he meant 'and'. However, I suppose it is possible that even J.R.R. was not perfect, and an 'and' in the proofs, which he meant to be a 'the' might have slipped by him.

This is well before the initial publication. In fact, an outline from August 1940 (placed just before the third version) appears to be where the idea of the Sword was introduced. The outline says, "Boromir. Prophecies had been spoken. The Broken Sword should be reforged. Our wise men said the Broken Sword was in Rivendell. I have the Broken Sword, said Tarkil. My fathers were driven out of your city when Sauron raised a rebellion, and he that is now the Chief of the Nine drove us out." Christopher also notes that the same page also includes a revision to the Prancing Pony part to include Trotter (who would eventually become Aragorn) drawing the sword.

I don't think that anyone thought that Elrond was the best person to seek out at this time. Elrond is not mentioned in the Dream. Imladris is. Boromir is not seeking out Elrond. He is seeking out Imladris.

He is seeking out Imladris, which he knows to be associated with the "greatest of lore-masters", and says that along the way he was seeking "the house of Elrond."

Even Denethor seems to have no idea whether Elrond (or Elrond and Halfelven) are still present in Imladris. He only recalls that he (or they) 'dwelt' there once. If he thought they were still there, he should have said 'dwells'(or 'dwell' (too bad he didn't, as that would have told us if he was thinking of one person or two)). Denethor associates 'Imladris' with 'Elrond' and 'Halfelven' at some time in the past, but he does not seem to know if they are associated in the present.

"Dwelt" may imply uncertainty, but it doesn't necessarily imply doubt (that is, nothing about the word indicates that the action has certainly ceased). Further, Boromir is simply summarizing what Denethor said, and not giving a direct quotation, so we don't know how much is what Denethor said and how much is Boromir's interpretation.
 
All good points, JJ48.

I will stick with 'and' instead of 'the' unless I can figure out that J.R.R. changed it. I think we should accord J.R.R. the respect of knowing that he is a careful proof reader, and consider that the word he published was his word, unless we are sure that it was someone else's error, which he later changed.

I agree that Boromir is seeking out 'Elrond' and 'Halfelven' as he travels north, since they have been associated to Imladris by Denethor. Imladris, however, is in the poem, and Elrond is not. So Imladris is what he is primarily seeking. That's probably one of his problems, in that there might be many people who have some idea where Rivendell is, but don't know the name 'Imladris'. He might have better luck asking if people have heard of someone called Elrond.

I agree that 'dwelt' does not imply specific doubt. But, Denethor is associating Imladris with people who lived there in the distant past. Boromir cannot assume that they might still live there. Sure, he might consider the possibility that Elrond is an Elf, or Wizard, and might still be alive, but equally, Elrond might have been a Man, long departed from Middle Earth. Even if the Elrond who dwelt in Imladris in the past was an Elf or Wizard, and might be still alive in Middle Earth, Boromir has no certainty that he might still dwell in Imladris.
 
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