Why Don't I Agree? - An Old But Stubborn Doubt

[Rachel Port]

This bothered me the first time I listened to the episode, and has continued every time it comes up - and it does pretty regularly. Namely, where does the idea that Frodo was going to desert his friends and wander off (home?) when he put on the Ring and crawled to the outer door? I don't see it, and I've been trying to figure out why I don't. At first, it had seemed to me he was not going to leave the house, but checking the text I realize it does say the outer door, but I'm still not convinced.

So I'm trying to figure out why, and it comes down to this - I don't hear the Ring in this passage. The Ring's voice is clear in the Barrow:

Then a wild thought of escape came to him He wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out. He thought of himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there was nothing else he could do.

That's a clear temptation "If you put me on I can keep you safe, and who will think it wasn't right to save yourself?" It's how the Ring works - it picks up on what you want and offers it to you as if you just thought of it.

In Tom Bombadil's house, all I see is confusion in Frodo's mind. He distrusts that the Ring is still itself, so he puts it on when no one is looking, and when Merry can't see him, When Merry can't see him he's "delighted (in a way)", and after Tom calls him back he "laughed (trying to feel pleased)" and takes off the Ring. I think it's the parentheses that make the difference for me. He's delighted that the Ring is still the Ring, but only in a way. He goes towards the door (not, as Corey said recently, stepping over the threshold) until Bombadil calls him back and tells him to take off the Ring, his hand is more fair without it. And he is embarrassed like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, still feeling two ways. I don't think he ever loses that consciousness of himself. And there is nothing tempting him out. I think if he had gotten outside, he'd have come back in rather quickly, not wearing the Ring. I see no indication that he is thinking of deserting his friends and giving up the quest; there is no offer of freedom or safety, or anything else.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else?

 

[Odola]

In Tom Bombadil's house, all I see is confusion in Frodo's mind. He distrusts that the Ring is still itself, so he puts it on when no one is looking, and when Merry can't see him, When Merry can't see him he's "delighted (in a way)", and after Tom calls him back he "laughed (trying to feel pleased)" and takes off the Ring. I think it's the parentheses that make the difference for me. He's delighted that the Ring is still the Ring, but only in a way. He goes towards the door (not, as Corey said recently, stepping over the threshold) until Bombadil calls him back and tells him to take off the Ring, his hand is more fair without it. And he is embarrassed like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, still feeling two ways. I don't think he ever loses that consciousness of himself. And there is nothing tempting him out. I think if he had gotten outside, he'd have come back in rather quickly, not wearing the Ring. I see no indication that he is thinking of deserting his friends and giving up the quest; there is no offer of freedom or safety, or anything else.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else?

I have the impression Tom serves as a representant of Frodo's conscience here and that Frodo is driven to avoid facing Tom "at all costs" at this moment - so that Frodo does not even consider the consequences like deserting his friends or his mission - he simply doesn't think that far. Frodo seems to want to keep his illusion of his ring being something very special and himself having a very special relationship with it. So the power Tom displays over the ring threatens this illusion and Frodo reacts with a kind of an irrational jealousy not unlike that of a slighted lover.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Rachel,

I agree with you that there is no need to hear 'the voice of the Ring' in the Bombadil House incident.

Indeed, there are many instances which could be attributed to the 'voice of the Ring', which could also not be attributable to the Ring at all. You mention the time in the Barrow. I don't know that this is the Ring at work? Frodo has grown up on many tales of Bilbo using the Ring to turn invisible, and get out of sticky situations. Is it odd that in the terrifying circumstances of the Barrow he should immediately think of putting on the Ring to turn invisible and attempt to escape? I see no necessity for Ring influence on Frodo? (Though, I do see the possibility.)

I would suggest, that, so far, the only clear and indisputable power of the Ring that we have seen on Frodo (and seen or heard about from other Bearers) is that it induces extreme possessiveness in its Bearer. Does the Ring convey 'rationalizations', or 'Ring induced monologues' or 'temptations' to its Bearers? Well, it might, but I don't think that it must. A lot of the 'rationalizations' which we have seen could easily be the sort of rationalizations which the human mind can produce without any outside influence. "Save yourself! Put on the Ring and turn invisible! There is nothing you can do to save your friends." That could well be a normal flight or escape instinct at work. It is a very understandable first impulse. Now the instinct might well rapidly turn from flight to fight. "I can't abandon my friends, but, if I turn invisible, it might help me fight to save them, just like it helped Bilbo against the spiders in Mirkwood." Both, or either, of those impulses seem perfectly normal to me, with no need for the external voice of the Ring to induce them.

I am not sure that we have seen clear and convincing evidence that the Ring does anything other than induce possessiveness? We have seen things that make us wonder, but I don't think we have seen enough to be sure?

 

[Rachel Port]

I have the impression Tom serves as a representant of Frodo's conscience here and that Frodo is driven to avoid facing Tom "at all costs" at this moment - so that Frodo does not even consider the consequences like deserting his friends or his mission - he simply doesn't think that far. Frodo seems to want to keep his illusion of his ring being something very special and himself having a very special realtionship with it. So the power Tom displays over the ring threatens this illusion and Frodo reacts with a kind of an irrational jealousy not unlike of a slighted lover.

I love this, especially the thought that Frodo is acting like a slighted lover. There is a sulky quality to Frodo's whole reaction to Tom's handling of the Ring.

A lot of the 'rationalizations' which we have seen could easily be the sort of rationalizations which the human mind can produce without any outside influence. "Save yourself! Put on the Ring and turn invisible! There is nothing you can do to save your friends." That could well be a normal flight or escape instinct at work. It is a very understandable first impulse. Now the instinct might well rapidly turn from flight to fight. "I can't abandon my friends, but, if I turn invisible, it might help me fight to save them, just like it helped Bilbo against the spiders in Mirkwood." Both, or either, of those impulses seem perfectly normal to me, with no need for the external voice of the Ring to induce them.

Exactly. That's the ring of The Hobbit. It's interesting that later Sam will use the Ring the same way to rescue Frodo, and even at the threshold of Mordor, we see that hobbit-ness - there is nothing of the sinister, Sam is just being practical.

 

[Kate Neville]

I wonder whether there's a bit of a holdover from some of the original drafts. The first draft of the scene at Farmer Maggot's house includes the idea that Bingo (Frodo) put on his Ring from the beginning in order to have some fun with Farmer Maggot. I can't right now recall whether the Ring had become 'the One Ring' yet, but the idea of just 'using' the Ring for its invisibility may have leaked into the Bombadil scene. The whole Old Forest/Bombadil episode is the transition from Shire to Wider World: perhaps we are meant to see in Frodo's action not a sign of the Ring 'acting' on him in the way it did in the Barrow and Bree, but rather an extension of his inability to put the Ring in his fire back in Bag End. Back there, Frodo was not even aware of what he had done until he had done it. Here he is aware that he's not acting ethically (or politely, as he might have put it to himself). His awareness of what the Ring might be doing to him grows through the Barrows, and Bree, and on Weathertop. So that when he agrees to take the Ring in Rivendell, he does so knowing the consequences in a way which he didn't in the Shire. He's offering not only his life, but his soul.

 

[Rachel Port]

Where Farmer Maggot says he won't have any Baggins in his house, and Frodo goes in with the others, invisible, then drinks Farmer Maggot'a beer and wears his hat out the door? I enjoy that one, Kate.

Looking at this from that perspective of seeing it as transitional, of relating this action more to his inability to throw the Ring into the fireplace is intneresting. But in that moment, we hear very clearly in Frodo's thoughts the same words we hear from Isildur, from Gollum, and from Bilbo - talk about its perfect roundness and beauty, and how it looks altogether precious. Frodo weighs it in his hand to make sure it's still his Ring. His putting it on is deliberate as another test, not involuntary as in Bree or as it would have been in the Shire when the Black Riders are near. In that sense it is more like his His moving toward the door is unexplained.

If he had opened the door, the others would have been aware of what he was doing even without Tom seeing him.

But I do think you are right about his knowing much more by the time he volunteers to take the Ring to Mordor. He knows as well as Gandalf that he could be possessed by the Ring. Gandalf says not for evil, but there is always that possibility - so yes, Frodo knows that his life and his soul (do hobbits believe in souls?) are threatened by his quest. But I'm still not sure this incident is so fully under the Ring's sway.

 

[Odola]

But I do think you are right about his knowing much more by the time he volunteers to take the Ring to Mordor. He knows as well as Gandalf that he could be possessed by the Ring. Gandalf says not for evil, but there is always that possibility - so yes, Frodo knows that his life and his soul (do hobbits believe in souls?) are threatened by his quest. But I'm still not sure this incident is so fully under the Ring's sway.

I have another a bit far fetched idea which goes beyond the clear text but makes sense in this context.
I am sure Tolkien did not intend it to, but the idea seems to fit the text itself.

So a big SPECULATION warning here.

If Tom is an Ainu.
Gandalf is an Ainu.
Sauron is an Ainu.
And a mortal "guardian spirit" is also an Ainu.
(As hobbits might have no concept of "souls", they would not have any about "personal guardian spirits" either).

Tom seems to work with/ support Frodo's conscience in a way a "guardian sprit" would in this passage.
Gandalf's "Take it off! Take it off! You fool, take it off! Tag off the ring!" at Amon Hen seems to be also a warning in the style a "guarding spirit" would normally send to "his" mortal.

I think the ring as the tool of Sauron who is himself an Ainu would interfere with the "guardian spirit's" access to the mortal's soul, like "corrupting/ engrossing/monopolising the access channel" to a degree.

This would make it difficult for such a person to "die" properly, as the "guardian spirit" is the one guiding the soul beyond the "circles of Arda".

As the Valar saw this happen to Isildur - maybe he got stuck somewhere on his way out - they allow all ringbearers to go to Valinor to get this issue fixed so that they have their ability to die/leave Arda the proper way restored.

I know this is a bit far fetched, but it seems to add up.

 

[Rachel Port]

I know this is a bit far fetched, but it seems to add up.

It is far-fetched, but I enjoy it more than many of your speculations. Mostly because I don't favor the theological kind of analysis - I'm not Catholic or even Christian, so I often get lost, and a bit resentful. But this is clear and actually interesting. Thank you.

 

[Odola]

But this is clear and actually interesting.

This idea also would explain why Gandalf feels the very urgent need to have an lengtly discussion with Tom after the war - discussing and comparing (among others) their observations on Frodo and
their implications for the further treatment of the "Ringbearer-Syndrom" like two old fellow experienced specialists?

 

[Rachel Port]

Except that Tom is called Eldest, said to be in Middle Earth before everything else - remembers the first trees, etc. So I don't think it actually works for Tom. The other question is why Tom is unaffected by the Ring, while Sauron made it and Gandalf is afraid to take it.

 

[Odola]

Except that Tom is called Eldest, said to be in Middle Earth before everything else - remembers the first trees, etc. So I don't think it actually works for Tom. The other question is why Tom is unaffected by the Ring, while Sauron made it and Gandalf is afraid to take it.

Gandalf is incarnate, as such to an extend "a mortal", and I do doubt Tom is, as I doubt Goldberry is.
If Goldberry is a nature spirit and Tom is one of the Ainur who entered Arda at the beginning and just does his job as a guardian spirit of "his" place and he just did not buy into the whole "Valinor" thing and stayed at "his" place the whole time, he had plenty of time to observe mortals - he claims he had known the fair lady who was the owner of the brooch found in the barrow - so he had some relation with men living there for centuries.
He can be considered an "expert" if even only by observation - more than anybody else - as such he is the only one left for Gandalf to consult on this matter on this side of the sea. Elrond is a healer but he cannot tell much about the mechanics of mortals leaving Arda. Tom has had plenty of time to analyse it - maybe this is one of the reasons his home is so near to the barrows ;-).