Why two months delay between the Council and departing Rivendell?

For a scholar both familiar with English history and Catholic teaching the 25th of March can never simply be a random date.

In other words, "We have already firmly established our conclusion regardless of evidence or lack thereof."
 
In other words, "We have already firmly established our conclusion regardless of evidence or lack thereof."
So the Gondorian New Year being the same date as the Old English New Year written by a guy intending - according to his own words - to write a mythology for England is a completely random occurance, the author was clearly not aware of what he was doing, even if from inside the text a date of 23th or 28th of March would work exactly the same for the story?
 
Please stop being sarcastic and cynical (you wouldnt make it into the core TCBS). I really want to hear Narnion's opinion on this but if we continue on this level he surely will not mention this in his next session
 
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So the Gondorian New Year being the same date as the Old English New Year written by a guy intending - according to his own words - to write a mythology for England is a completely random occurance, the author was clearly not aware of what he was doing, even if from inside the text a date of 23th or 28th of March would work exactly the same for the story?

Yet again, whoever said that Tolkien was completely unaware of the date? The question is whether he shifted his entire story around (giving "weak" reasons for doing so, no less) just to make the particular date work out. Personally, I find the idea that he changed the dates for story purposes much more likely, particularly since he did not select such important dates to begin with. As Anthony pointed out, it's probable that the coincidence of the dates with important Catholic dates would have been a confirmation; not a cause.

Though, as Anthony also pointed out, we have long since ceased discussing text and notes and are now simply wildly speculating what was going on in Tolkien's head (in some cases in direct contradiction to text and notes), and therefore are solidly in crit-fic territory. As such, I too shall take my leave of the discussion. Good day to you all.
 
Per Hammond and Scull:

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We aren't going to settle it. (My own gloss would be that Tolkien intended it as something of an Easter egg which might evoke certain mythic associations in readers, but would recoil from pressing the point directly, for the same reasons he found the Arthurian myths fatally harmed by too much explicit Christianity.)
 
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Per Hammond and Scull:

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We aren't going to settle it. (My own gloss would be that Tolkien intended it as something of an Easter egg which might evoke certain mythic associations in readers, but would recoil from pressing the point directly, for the same reasons he found the Arthurian myths fatally harmed by too much explicit Christianity.)
I actually always considered it an "Easter Egg". Otherwise the issue would have been easily remedied by taking e.g. December the 27th - which is end of December too - and which would have no adverse influence on the story at all.
 
Per Hammond and Scull:

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We aren't going to settle it. (My own gloss would be that Tolkien intended it as something of an Easter egg which might evoke certain mythic associations in readers, but would recoil from pressing the point directly, for the same reasons he found the Arthurian myths fatally harmed by too much explicit Christianity.)

Is there a reference given for this Nomenclature they mention?
 
You misunderstand me completely. I have no problem at all with the religious analysis, or drawing conclusions about how Catholicism affected JRRTs life or thinking. (I also find it distressing that the automatic assumption is that the objection is due to the mention of religion) My problem is with the continued, determined statements that this must have driven his decisions on the dates, when the scholarly records refute this.

The marked irony I see in all of this is the refutation of the possibility of this being coincidence, when that is the most frequent means of intervention by Eru in Arda. If Art is imitating life here, then this sort of serendipitous coincidence is exactly the way God works, and to deny the possibility of it being so is to take away from the glory of God.

Hi Anthony,

I really like your supposition that it is the intervention of Providence which causes the departure to coincidentally fall on Christmas.

Very cool!

However, Providence may work this way in the real world? But, TLOTR is a sub-created world, and, as such, I think we should probably attribute the causes of important seeming 'coincidences' to the sub-creator, rather than to God?
 
Per Hammond and Scull:

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We aren't going to settle it. (My own gloss would be that Tolkien intended it as something of an Easter egg which might evoke certain mythic associations in readers, but would recoil from pressing the point directly, for the same reasons he found the Arthurian myths fatally harmed by too much explicit Christianity.)

Good research Beech27!

Also, I totally agree with your conclusion. JRRT did not want to make the connection too explicit, and exactly as you say, his comments on the overly explicit Christianity in the Arthurian myths (perhaps also in C. S. Lewis Narnia books?) reinforce my supposition that he did not want to make it too explicit. It would have been easy enough to insert the date in the body of the text, if he had wanted it more obvious. Instead, he buried it in Appendix B.

I don't think he meant it exactly as an 'Easter Egg' (as that term is often used for movie references to other movies, simply designed to delight more perceptive and acute viewers). I think he meant it to be noticed by perceptive and acute readers, and cause them to think about why he did it, and what it meant.
 
Per Hammond and Scull:

View attachment 3802

We aren't going to settle it. (My own gloss would be that Tolkien intended it as something of an Easter egg which might evoke certain mythic associations in readers, but would recoil from pressing the point directly, for the same reasons he found the Arthurian myths fatally harmed by too much explicit Christianity.)

Hi Beech27,

Another comment on your excellent research. As you demonstrate, JRRT's comments on why December 25 was chosen as the date of departure are contradictory from different sources. To Henry Resnik, Tolkien says that the date 'occurred strictly by accident'. In 'Nomenclature' Tolkien says, "Dec. 25 (setting out) and March 25 (accomplishment of quest) were intentionally chosen by me."

This illustrates some of the dangers of using ancillary Tolkien material to try to interpret TLOTR. Tolkien gave different perspectives at different times or, perhaps to different audiences. Furthermore, we only have a fraction of JRRTs letters, and an unknown fraction of his notes and drafts published, and, in both cases, the choices of what to publish were not made by JRRT, but by others. Who knows what other thoughts JRRT may have jotted down that editors did not select, and that we know nothing of?

Besides the unreliability, and dubious nature of using Tolkien legendarium material to interpret TLOTR, there is a lot to be said for interpreting the work of art as a work of art. Within the work of art, it is indisputable that the Company left Rivendell on Christmas Day. It is a good idea for us, as close readers, to wonder why? Why is this 'buried' in the Appendices? How important is it that the Company leave on this day? Is this why the company spends so long in Rivendell before setting out? How logical are the other reasons given for tarrying in Rivendell?
 
The marked irony I see in all of this is the refutation of the possibility of this being coincidence, when that is the most frequent means of intervention by Eru in Arda. If Art is imitating life here, then this sort of serendipitous coincidence is exactly the way God works, and to deny the possibility of it being so is to take away from the glory of God.
Somehow I really like the idea of JRRT's writing of the book being influenced by divine coincidence. It completes the circle so perfectly, it's just gotta be true!
 
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