Women Fighters

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I don't mind making the Galdors one person. I can see him saying to Círdan (after the fall of Gondolin), "I'm no longer Galdor of the Tree, I'm back to being Galdor of the Havens now". It would make some sense. It would be kind of cool.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We have not yet discussed how we intend to handle the lords of Gondolin. We know we want Glorfindel and Ecthelion. And we've discussed how Rog will come to Gondolin post-battle (so, his house is not one of the 'original' houses but a later addition, as are several others).

Houses of Gondolin:
House of the King: Turgon
House of the Heavenly Arch: Egalmoth
House of the Tree: Galdor
House of the Golden Flower: Glorfindel
House of the Fountain: Ecthelion
House of the Swallow: Duilin
House of the Harp: Salgant
House of the Mole: Maeglin
House of the Pillar: Penlod
House of the Tower of Snow: (also) Penlod
House of the Wing: Tuor
House of the Hammer of Wrath: Rog
As you can see, some of these are later additions. At the founding of Gondolin, we will only have:

House of the King: Turgon
House of the Heavenly Arch: Egalmoth
House of the Tree: Galdor
House of the Golden Flower: Glorfindel
House of the Fountain: Ecthelion
House of the Swallow: Duilin
House of the Harp: Salgant
House of the Pillar: Penlod
House of the Tower of Snow: (also) Penlod

In Season 4, we only intend to introduce Glorfindel and Ecthelion. The names in italics are there, but as unnamed faces in the background. More of a costuming choice than a casting choice, at this point in time. We'll spend a lot of time in Gondolin over the next few seasons, so it's quite possible that we'll find opportunities to give some of those unnamed lords roles or lines or character development. Or....they might just be Turgon's court, known by their heraldry and that is all.



Is this the same Galdor? That's a choice we can make this season. It could be, though it doesn't have to be. Galdor-of-the-Havens was one of Círdan's mariners in Season 3; he's not currently with Círdan in the north, but with the people of the Havens who are currently refugees.

We know that some Sindar (including Falathrim from the [destroyed] Havens) will join Turgon in Nevrast. We will show that in Episode 4-5, presumably. These Sindar will then go to Gondolin with Turgon this season (that move will happen after the Kinslaying reveal, so it might not be automatic, but Turgon will handle it in some way).

In the Lost Tales version of the Fall of Gondolin (the only one we have!), a lot of the folk of the House of the Tree (Galdor's house) escape with Tuor and join the refugees at the Havens of Sirion.

So, if we wanted him to be the same person, he could wind up back at the Havens that way, and we'd have to have him stay with Círdan rather than sail west, sticking around for the Second and Third Ages.

When Tolkien was considering the 'two Glorfindels' problem, he ultimately concluded that these two Galdors were in fact different elves, but it was a question worth asking to him. He concluded that it's a common name, and it's just two random elves who happen to share a name. We could merge them, but we don't have to. If we did merge them into one, we would likely solve the problem Tolkien saw with making them a single character; in our version, Galdor is one of the Falathrim, not a Noldo elf, so there's no reason for him to return to Tol Eressëa with the other Noldor at the end of the First Age. Having one of the Lords of Gondolin be a Sinda would be an interesting choice; we could do something with that.

We're eliminating the name 'Legolas Greenleaf' as an elf of Gondolin because we're reserving that for the main character in Lord of the Rings. We have enough other elves in Gondolin; we don't need him. Can someone else take his role? Sure, no problem. But we're not using that name.

If Galdor-of-the-Havens *is* Galdor-of-Gondolin, then that would give us interesting opportunities for dialogue between Galdor and Glorfindel later.


In conclusion - Egalmoth, Duilin, Salgant, and Penlod will not be introduced by name this season. If Galdor is a different elf, he won't be introduced, either. If it's the same Galdor, we will have to get him to Nevrast and make him the leader of a group of Sindar there.
When should we introduce them (if we introduce them)? Season 5, when Aredhel leaves, or when she returns to Gondolin? Early Season 6, when Hurin and Huor arrive after rescue from Orcs? Or Season 8 (?) when Tuor arrives in Gondolin as a messenger of Ulmo?
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
When should we introduce them (if we introduce them)? Season 5, when Aredhel leaves, or when she returns to Gondolin? Early Season 6, when Hurin and Huor arrive after rescue from Orcs? Or Season 8 (?) when Tuor arrives in Gondolin as a messenger of Ulmo?
If we are talking about Glorfindel and Ecthelion, we have already seen them as unnamed characters without a speaking role in S03. As Turgon separates from the other Noldor, they will likely be introduced through S04.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If we are talking about Glorfindel and Ecthelion, we have already seen them as unnamed characters without a speaking role in S03. As Turgon separates from the other Noldor, they will likely be introduced through S04.
Well, the other Lords of Gondolin. How about the rest (with the exception of Glorfindel and Ecthelion who are introduced earlier) are introduced by the time Aredhel makes her fateful trip in Season 5 or when she returns and dies, with Maeglin being introduced to the rest when he forms his own house?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Well, the other Lords of Gondolin. How about the rest (with the exception of Glorfindel and Ecthelion who are introduced earlier) are introduced by the time Aredhel makes her fateful trip in Season 5 or when she returns and dies, with Maeglin being introduced to the rest when he forms his own house?
Perhaps. We will likely begin to focus more on Gondolin as we approach its fall.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
I think they each require an 'introductory scene' where they do something significant and the audience pays attention to them, but also gets to know something of their characters. There was a suggestion for Ecthelion to fight off werewolves, either while exploring Beleriand or in an attempted elf-napping. A skirmish in which he would be the awesome fighter who prevails (and saves whomever he's with at the time).

I don't recall any suggestions on how to introduce Glorfindel, actually.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think they each require an 'introductory scene' where they do something significant and the audience pays attention to them, but also gets to know something of their characters. There was a suggestion for Ecthelion to fight off werewolves, either while exploring Beleriand or in an attempted elf-napping. A skirmish in which he would be the awesome fighter who prevails (and saves whomever he's with at the time).

I don't recall any suggestions on how to introduce Glorfindel, actually.
Ecthelion: fighting off werewolves sounds good.

Glorfindel: Same, perhaps in a scene where Turgon is present to establish them as kin? I've thought of having Glorfindel act as an elder brother to Idril during his time in Gondolin and teaching her how to wield a sword when she asks him during the last seven years of Gondolin's time.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
suggesting that Nick and I will pre-emptively ban your ideas there is a bit...pre-emptive...don't you think? ;) Okay, in all seriousness, I understand your concern.
It's because it has felt like when I mention the possibility, the reaction I get looks like: They don't need to be Celeborn's relative, therefore they should not be his relative. This is why it has sometimes felt like the answer is already no.

About the Besain and healers, @MithLuin I do appreciate that there are pitfalls to avoid when using any minor or background characters, that I'm less familiar with those pitfalls than you are, and that you aren't necessarily saying we can't use them. It isn't always easy to tell the tone of a long critique on a forum.

I hope that for characters who would fade into background characters in some seasons, it would be helpful to not make them very prominent in the episode that introduces them.

You'll notice that we did manage to get flashbacks-for-Eöl-who-has-been-in-Beleriand-since-well-before-the-Sun-rose into Season 4.
Yes, we did. :)

I certainly intend to bring up Irimë's daughter again and see if she can be included. As of right now, she has not been, for whatever reason.

Each of our kings will have a court. That court will consist mostly of background characters. 'Someone' will speak up when we need the court to voice something, and they will become repeat background faces. So, this is comparable to the minor nameless alien ambassadors from Babylon 5. They will be known by their role, not by their name.
I like this.
 
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MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Women fighters in the American Revolutionary War

Deborah Samson (sometimes spelled Sampson) is the best-known example of a woman who disguised herself as a young man and joined the Continental Army. She served for 3 years under the alias Robert Shirtliffe, being wounded twice in that time, before her identity was discovered by a doctor during an illness. She was discharged and granted a pension.

Less famous examples include Margaret Corbin, who "stepped up to the artillery during the attack on Fort Washington when her husband fell by her side and unhesitatingly took his place and performed his duties. In July of 1779 the Congress awarded her a pension for her heroism."

And the sisters Rachel and Grace Martin who "disguised themselves as men and assailed a British courier and his guards. They took his important dispatches, which they speedily forwarded to General Greene. Then they released the two officers who didn't even know that they were women." We know the officers didn't realize who they were, because they visited their mother's house and met them immediately after this incident...but didn't recognize the two young women as the 'men' who had assaulted them the night before. They were wearing their husbands' clothes and carrying pistols at the time of the assault.

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/femvets.html


General Casimer Pulaski was not a woman. But he has a woman's skeleton. To back up...we know this person was baptized as a boy. We know he had facial hair and male-pattern baldness. All of this indicates the presence of androgen hormones (ie, testosterone) and male sexual characteristics. But...this person's skull and pelvis? Would be classified as a female skeleton if they didn't know who it was. Height was somewhere between 5' 2" and 5'4". Never married and had no known direct descendants.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/revolutionary-war-hero-casimir-pulaski-might-have-been-woman-or-n991371?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR3Bo7KPshh6SGibUoh_vsasXFArNsYB_3xL5Voj5kWS8oM3fYtqKRFSXec

So, it is possible that this individual was intersex. I'm a bit frustrated that this article, which says they did DNA analysis, doesn't just come out and say whether that was XX, XY, XXY, or something else. And, obviously, if you give a woman more testosterone, her physical characteristics as far as muscle mass go are not markedly different from a man. But, regardless, this person was a noted general during the American Revolutionary War, and very successful until fatally wounded.

ETA: According to this second article, the condition General Pulaski most likely had was CAH, and the genetic analysis was of mitochondrial DNA in the femur (so that would explain why they couldn't confirm XX or XY or whatever). If it was a case of CAH, then Pulaski was most likely genetically female, but produced enough androgen hormones to show male traits.

https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/casimir-pulaski-intersex/Content?oid=69383944&fbclid=IwAR3EXqIK33pkiclCks0T1QZTEb51pMypfFb8mRKhRMplrUZSd4fq3gZeSaU
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Hmm...

I don't think we'll actually need women who disguise as males... i mean, if elf women choose to fight they can do so. Maybe we have a small group of woman-regiment, or they just take part in the phalanx like the next guy. I just criticized the trend to have women put into classical male stereotypes.. as i don't think thats very progressive and i also said that women fighters in the legendaroum are always the minority and not the common standard. However the Halethrim and Rohirrim have an open subculture of female warriors, and the Elves have words for female warriors, so they must have existed.We know that some eldarin women did train on weapons and did perform athletic feats, others went hunting along with the males... makes them perfect candidates for possible female warriors. I just doubt they were very common, that is all.
 
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