Worldbuilding in Valinor

yeah well... theres the two trees on the hill, surrounded by wells, two rivers running west from the trees and kelusindi runnung to the treef from north and the lake ton sovriel south of valmar, with rivers running from it west. valmar has tulkas court un the center, every vala has some sort of dwelling there, manwe in the east next to the gate, ulmo in the south close tothe water, orome also in the south, nienna in the west, aule in the center close to tulkas, mandos in the north and lorien in the southwest and vana outside near the trees.valmar has about 150 buildings, most of which are quite large and have domes and towers, but valmar is not overtly densely settled... there are a lot of greenspaces and quite a few small woodes areas and pools of water. i've left out the falasse numen, which i interpret as a huge bay in amana westetn coast... but the rivers from the two trees and the ton sovriel empty to it
I would just like to add that we said in the discussion in season one that a lot of the constructions in Valmar (I mean buildings but also things like roads or streets, gates and whatever) - if not all of them - are created for the interaction between Ainur and the Eldar. It's the city of the Valar but they don't really need all of the stuff built there. So I think we should have a city-like creation. On the one hand, it should be made with the Elves in mind, but on the other, it should be a bit weird or other-worldly to reflect the fact that the Ainur have completely different needs. Even if a lot of this does not affect the drawing of a map, some of it will, perhaps.
 
Yes. Welcome, Rachel!

That was my more linear mind talking and trying to get all the T's dotted and I's crossed. I think that we service the plot, the stories and the characters if we just indicate that time has passed. We also need to indicate that the time that it took Feanor's crossing is a shorter time than it took Fingolfin (by several factors). We don't need to narrow it down and say, Feanor's crossing took 5 years (and if we really want to, we could say it took so long because a) the Noldor were not particularly good open sea sailors and b) even though Osse was forbidden from interfering directly with Feanor, I'm sure that he may have played some tricks with currents and prevailing winds that little rapscallion...) and then say Fingolfin's crossing took 12 years and two months and five days. Instead, we can say that Feanor's crossing took years because of the passive hinderance of Osse while the crossing of the Helcaraxe took more than twice as long and the hardships that Fingolfin's host endured were far greater.
 
this is it:
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While geography is important, I'd like to divert the conversation back into architecture for just a moment, if that's okay. When it comes to visual worldbuilding, architecture is immensely significant. I would argue that architecture is perhaps much more important than spatial geography, at least as far as visual media is concerned, because the visible stylistic differences apparent in architecture act as signals which let the audience know where they are, culturally speaking. It's one of the biggest ways viewers differentiate between settings. So that has to be taken into account. When we're thinking about what Tirion and Formenos should look like, we should also be thinking ahead and asking questions like, "How is this architectural style going to be easily differentiated from Sindarin architecture, which we'll see much later?" etc.

Also, while architecture is cultural, it is also functional.

I think the functionality of architecture could be really well employed in later seasons if we establish it now. For example, we know Gondolin is modeled on Tirion, and that the two cities greatly resemble each other. The only really big visible difference between these cities, other than literal location, would be the presence of fortifications. Military campaigns are not part of Valinor's history, whereas the Noldor who crossed back to Beleriand soon grow accustomed to warfare. So, due to the inherent functionality of architecture, it makes sense that there would be developments in the way the Noldor construct buildings.

Basically, changes in lifestyle elicit changes in architecture.

So when the Feanorian host arrives in Beleriand, let's say they begin constructing permanent (or semi-permanent) settlements in the way they typically built settlements in Valinor - which is to say, in the Noldorin way, the only way they've ever built settlements up until now. And then they realize (through trial and error) that they actually need to put serious thought into fortifying their settlements now! I think a lot of fun could be had with this, especially considering the Noldorin predisposition to trying to improve upon their own creations. Maybe in Meadhros' absence, whenever Maglor suspects his younger brothers are up to no good, he sends them to inspect/improve the fortifications in an attempt to distract them.

Anyway, in order to set the scene for this kind of long-term visual development, we'd need to have a pretty solid grasp on the cultural/functional significance of Tirion's architecture. We know that Tirion is a walled city (Galadriel even mentions the "walls of Tirion" in her Song of Eldamar in Fellowship), but perhaps we should make it clear that these walls are for decorative purposes, rather than purposes of defense.

Thoughts?
 
the noldorin fortifacations are described as hillforts at some point... so something like arthurian, late roman dark age architecture maybe?

taniquetil and formenos are much more difficult for me to imagine...

as for valarin architecture i know they use wood, marble, metals,have high towers and domes. and roofs if golc and silver and i'd like to draw from some of tolkiens sketches for it, thal halls of the merking for example. but formenos and noldrian architecture i'm still unsure about

some rough sketches to show what I intended:
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all pretty closely based on Tolkien drawings. It seems to me that I can distinguish two different designs, the first I would call "epic-Fatasy" design, Tolkien obviously was totally into slender, slightly curved forms, some of his drawings remind of english churches and victorian architecture while others do have a more oriental or russian-orthodox or maybe bycantine feel about them. The second strain is what I would call "Fairytale-style"... it has more domes and round and conical forms and it looks much more "cute" or childlike, but very otherworldly too...
 
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Another issue raised in the script discussions - Transportation.

We've talked a bit about ship building. We know the elves at Cuivienen will have simple rafts to reach the island. We also know that Círdan is going to start building boats in the Bay of Balar, while they wait for the return of the Island Ferry. And, of course, some more impressive ships will happen when the Teleri move from Tol Eressëa to Alqualondë. We need that all in place so that by the end of Season 2, we have an entire fleet of swan ships.

At some point, the elves are going to start riding horses. Oromë does, and they meet him early on, so horse riding is possible as soon as the journey across Middle Earth. But what else goes into this migration? Do they have wagons to transport stuff? Seems...burdensome and unwieldy. There certainly aren't any roads in Beleriand - they have to forge paths through the wilderness....which suggests following rivers. Do they just carry all of their belongings in packs? Do they have pack animals?

How about in Valinor? Surely by then they build roads? It seems...highly unlikely....that the Noldor don't have paved stone roads leading into/out of Tírion. Even if wide parts of Valinor are wilderness, there would still be reason to have roads connecting Valmar, Tirion and Alqualondë. Do the elves (or Maiar/Valar) make use of palanquins/litters? I think there's a very problematic history there (it would imply that the elves doing the carrying are servants/slaves), but perhaps we should consider...? I am fine with limiting transportation to foot traffic and pack animals, or possibly simple wheeled vehicles (wagons). But we should definitely consider whether or not we want them to have wagons prior to the migration across the Helcaraxë.

The Shire has wheelbarrows and the Wainriders have....wains. The word can be used for wagons or chariots, but I think it means wagons there? (I have to look up/re-read that section). Regardless, plenty of wheeled vehicles in the 3rd Age. But when will the wheel be introduced to Middle Earth, and by whom?

Do we want to consider any sort of fantastical methods of transportation? No, I'm not suggesting people riding unicorns. But there is precedent for travel-by-giant-bird in Tolkien's world. We're in Valinor...if we're going to have anything...magical...going on, it would be here.
 
As a Noldor kind of guy, I sort of like the idea of wagons for the migration, with all the necessary path finding and (especially) bridge building that would entail.
 
Well, yeah. You have to get the relief carvings on the underwater/not-visible supports for your one-time-use temporary bridge just right, and that kind of craftsmanship takes time.
 
I propose Travois and Sleds. No Litters or Palanquins - that's too decadent for elves. Also I think to remember that Tolkien stated somewhere that the Eldar disliked wheels.. so they knew them , but tried to avoid their use... Morgoth and the mortal men of course should use them.

Thinking of ships and boats... Tolkien uses different shiptypes in his books, Galley, Galleon, Bark, Gondola, Dromon, shallop, skiff, barge... there should be some elven-ships ships large enough to transport Horses and great armies.
 
Boy oh boy, there's a difference between avoiding wheels, and owning nothing larger than you can carry in a backpack for decades...
 
Yes. And what large things would the Noldor transport on their long journey and would Carts or Wagons even be of use to travel terrain such as the Helcaraxe?

I agree they would use wheels say, if they built their fortresses and have to transport heavy rocks (but then again, maybe they go egyptian or stonehengian instead) or if they use engines of war, but if you're crossing an ice-barrier I honestly rather believe in sleds and Travois.
 
I was thinking smaller scale than that, and definitely for the initial East-West journey across Middle Earth, not the return one over the grinding ice. Cooking pots. Woodcutting axes. Tents and blankets. Bulky and heavy things. Not to mention maybe personal things - artwork and such. You can carry an oven in a wagon. And even a small/portable forge (depending on whether they have any inkling of metalworking at all pre-Valinor).

Cram 'em all on ponies I suppose. But it's a pretty lean and mean way to live for decades.
 
Sleds and Travois can be very effective... many cultures in the world did not use Carts and wheeled vehicles, even when they knew the use of the wheel. I recall the southamerican cultures for example.
 
Looms to make cloth should be added to the list of items that need to be transported during the Great Migration.

No pre-Valinor metal-working.

I definitely think pack animals are required for this. And yes, sleds are an option.
 
Haerengil does make a good point about an elvish dislike of wheels.

For example, chariots arise from the unsuitability of early horsemanship for cavalry, however, as the elves have no need of saddles or lengthy desensitization training, the chariot might never exist for them, but certainly for Morgoth's armies and human ones.
 
that's what i'm talking about. depending on the territory you're traveling such travois can be even more efficient than wheeled carts. travois-like means of transport were used around the world since the neolithic age and were common in many regions beside carts wellinto the medieval age.
 
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