Impact of Beren and Lúthien story on future seasons

Odola

Well-Known Member
A reminder that this thread is for discussing the scope of the remaining seasons of the First Age. It will become way too chaotic if we use it to discuss every story choice that needs to be made over the next 5 seasons! So, suggestions on how to break up the stories, which stories to group together, where to end one season and begin another, etc. - that is what this thread is meant for. This is a "big picture" discussion - we can work out details elsewhere at another time.

Still they need not to known of it before nor must they have known about Luthien's 1st death or of her having become a mortal. As such their later decission to allow Luthien to wear it could still make sense. We want the Feanorians consistant. If they decide not to attack Doriath now but do so later the change must make some sense for them. It shoud not seem random - just because now it fits our plat and before it did not. The audience takes offence with such things - I have heard many people e.g. complaning that in the Witcher the hero does not kill the villian in an episode when he has him right there standing before him but then he spends several episodes trying to find him just to be able to kill him. We shoud try to avoid such inconsistencies.

2nd questions - for the decades of the Turin story - is the Silmaril placed somewhere visible in Doriath or is is with the dwarves the whole time to be set into the necklace. Does Turin see the Thingol's Silmaril during his stay in Doriath? How familiar is he with the Beren and Luthien story? Is he shown the places where it happened? E.g. does he pass Hirilorn and is told its part in the story? Has he heard some parts of it from Morwen as a child already? Does he known of Beren's reembodiment? Or does he think Beren's first death was the result of Beren having married an elf and as a result Turin himself is resolved not to marry an elf not to end like Beren? This would influnce the Finduilas story. So how far does Beren & Luthien influence the Turin story?
 
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I am well aware that internal consistency matters. The Fëanoreans do not attack Doriath while the Girdle is intact (for obvious reasons). They do not demand the silmaril from Beren and Lúthien (and thus do not attack them). And they *do* demand the silmaril from Dior, and then attack him when he refuses. Pausing before attacking someone who single-handedly took on Sauron, Morgoth, and Námo is something that can certainly be explained in dialogue. There is a difference between Beren and Lúthien - who stole the silmaril from Morgoth themselves - holding it, rather than Dior - who was not alive during their quest and had nothing to do with it - holds it. Yes, the Oath demands it either way, but delaying the Oath has always been an option. Lúthien dies the same year she gets the silmaril, and there are no Fëanoreans nearby. Delay, rather than inconsistency, explains their motivations.

Whatever is chosen, as long it is at least hinted to the audience that there is a valid reason for it should be fine.

Still, what is known of the Beren and Luthien's story by whom, when, from which source and to what extend is an inportant matter as it will infuence other stories.

When Elrond comes into the picture Beren and Luthien's story is already common knowledge both among elves and humans.

But as long as Thingol is alive it is an internal private matter of the Doriathrim royal family which is for sure not much discussed at lenght with his declared enemies by his subjects.

So the whole story gets out pobably in Dior's time as for him it is the basis for his public legitimation of his right to rule. He is proud of his parents achievements and he has an acute political interest in the story getting out as far as possible. And the narrative is very anti-Feanorian even before they claim the stone from him. Also if for him the Silmaril is an emblem of his own claim to the throne of Doriath he will never give it up. Melian has left and Thingol's face with mirrored the light of the Trees is no more. The divine light has vanished from Doriath save for the Silmaril alone.
 
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o.k - so according to https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline/First_Age (our Beren and Luthien story takes place 4 years earlier than in canon):

464Beren leaves Dorthonion and meets Lúthien in the forest of Doriath.
Birth of Túrin.
465The Quest for the Silmaril. Death of Finrod.
Birth of Brandir.
466Beren and Lúthien take one Silmaril from Morgoth. Beren loses his hand to Carcharoth. The Hunting of the Wolf. The first death of Beren Erchamion.
Birth of Urwen.
467The first death of Lúthien. Lúthien sings before Mandos, who releases both her and Beren from the Halls of Mandos.
468Birth of Hunthor. Thingol refuses to join the Union of Maedhros.
469Death of Urwen. Orcs driven from Beleriand. Beren and Lúthien return to Middle-earth.
470Births of Dior and Hardang.
471Death of Halmir. Huor weds Rían.
472The Nirnaeth Arnoediad ("Battle of Unnumbered Tears"). Deaths of Fingon, Huor, Glóredhel, Azaghâl, Haldir, Hundar and Rían. Húrin is taken captive to Angband. Turgon becomes High King of the Noldor.
The Year of Lamentation. Birth of Tuor.
473Birth of Nienor. Túrin sent to Doriath. Fall of the Falas. Brithombar and Eglarest ruined. Gil-galad and Círdan flee to the Isle of Balar. Havens of Sirion constructed.
481Túrin becomes companion-in-arms to Beleg on the marches of Doriath.
484Death of Saeros. Túrin leaves Doriath.
485Túrin kills Forweg and becomes leader of the Gaurwaith.
486Túrin and the outlaws encounter Mîm and make their home on Amon Rûdh as the House of Ransom.
487Túrin lives as an outlaw on Amon Rûdh.
488Tuor enslaved.
489Beleg joins Túrin on Amon Rûdh. Mîm betrays them to Orcs and Túrin is captured. Death of Beleg.
490Gwindor leads Túrin to Nargothrond. Túrin becomes captain of Nargothrond.
491Tuor escapes and becomes an outlaw.
494Morwen and Nienor flee to Doriath.
495Battle of the Crossings of the Taeglin. Battle of Tumhalad. Tuor comes to Nevrast. Sack of Nargothrond by Glaurung. Deaths of Finduilas, Orodreth, Gwindor, and Handir.
496Túrin comes to Brethil.
Tuor comes to Gondolin.
Morwen Eledhwen and Nienor leave Doriath seeking Túrin. Nienor loses her memory, is found by the Men of Brethil, and given the name Níniel.
 
497Dior weds Nimloth.
498Túrin weds Níniel.
499Túrin defeats Glaurung. Deaths of Brandir, Hunthor, Nienor and Túrin.
500Eluréd and Elurín born. Release of Húrin.
501Húrin comes to Doriath. Deaths of Morwen and Hardang.
502Húrin gives the Nauglamír to Thingol and Melian. Deaths of Húrin and Mîm. The Dwarves of Nogrod set the Silmaril in the Nauglamír. Death of Thingol. Melian returns to Valinor. Tuor weds Idril.
503Births of Eärendil and Elwing. The Battle of the Thousand Caves. The Battle of Sarn Athrad. Death of Mablung of the heavy hand. Lúthien wears the Silmaril. Dior and his family come to Menegroth. Final deaths of Beren and Lúthien. Dior receives the Nauglamír and Silmaril.
504With the power of the Silmaril, King Dior finally restores the former glory of Doriath. He now publicly wears the Nauglamír and the Silmaril.
505The sons of Fëanor demand the Silmaril from Dior.
506The Second Kinslaying at Menegroth and the Ruin of Doriath.
Deaths of Dior, Nimloth, Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir. Eluréd and Elurín are abandoned in the wintry forest to die.
507Elwing comes to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril.
509Maeglin captured and tortured by Morgoth.
510The Fall of Gondolin. Deaths of Turgon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Maeglin, and Gothmog.
Ereinion Gil-galad becomes High King of the Noldor.
511Gondolin refugees arrive at the Havens of Sirion.
 
512Maedhros learns that a Silmaril is at the Havens of Sirion, but forswears the Oath of Fëanor.
525Eärendil weds Elwing. Tuor and Idril depart for Valinor.
527The remaining Sons of FëanorMaedhros, Maglor, Amrod, and Amras – begin to feel tormented by their unfulfilled oath.
532Births of Elrond and Elros.
534Eärendil searches for Valinor.
538Third Kinslaying at the Havens of Sirion. Deaths of Amrod and Amras. Elrond and Elros are taken captive by Maglor. Elwing escapes with the Silmaril into the Sea. Ulmo gives her the form of a white bird and she reunites with Eärendil aboard Vingilot.
540Morgoth controls all of Beleriand.
542Eärendil and Elwing come to Valinor and rally a great host.
545The Host of Valinor lands in Beleriand.
587The Destruction of Beleriand. Deaths of Ancalagon and Maedhros.
590Morgoth is thrust from Arda. The Host of Valinor departs Middle-earth.

So according to the timeline Tuor has no info about the Beren and Luthien story untill the Fall of Gondolin. His mother Rian was at their wedding in our story but she never spoke to her son and Annael has now knowledge of it. Rian is in deep depression when she comes to Annael and about to give birth, she has other things on her mind than gossiping about random things with the elves.

Gondolin is isolated but while Turgon could have gained some news of it to make him willing to allow Tuor wed Idril it is still doubfull Turgon would gossip around about Thingol's private family matters publicly - there is still some basic solidarity among kings.

Turin is another matter - Turin is older and he is in Doriath and treated as a foster son by Thingol. Thingol considers him a replacement for Beren. Turin must have heard some parts of the story both from his mother Morwen and later in Doriath itself. How much and to what extend and how he interprets it to himself and how he has heard it judged while still in Dor-Lormin among humans is to be decided. He might even visited the first grave of Beren and think a mortal married to an elf is doomed to an early untimely death.

As the Silmaril is Doriath at the time it is certain Turin must have seen it.

At least in 504 Dior will have the official version of the Beren and Luthien story composed and distributed far and wide as a way to legitimate his kingship of Doriath to all Beleriand. As it includes heavily anti-Feanorian elements the demand for the Silmaril from the Feanorians in the following year can be actually a response to his narrative which could be considered slander by some of them.

By the time Earendil weds Elwing in 525 the story is widely known everywhere.

Any other suggestions?
 
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We had the legend of the outlaws of Dorthonion be common knowledge in places far from Dorthonion early in Season 6...because their brave deeds make a good story and people wanted to talk about that! Beren is 'a living legend who lives up to the legend' in his own lifetime. Orodreth and family discuss the outlaws of Dorthonion in Minas Tirith in Season 6 Episode 1. And when Lúthien introduces Beren to the court of Doriath, she does so not as a random stranger, but as someone whose history and deeds are known.

The tale of the quest for the silmaril and the wedding of Beren and Lúthien are definitely going to be news! Carcharoth's swath of destruction was not limited to Doriath, so any tale of the wolf naturally would raise interest in what caused his madness and what became of him. The quest took Beren and Lúthien to Nargothrond, and involved the people of that kingdom in it. They have more than a passing curiosity to learn how it all worked out! Any story that involves defeating Morgoth is going to be THE story.

The only fully isolated kingdom in Beleriand is Gondolin. Everyone else trades with the dwarves, welcomes travellers, and has interactions with people outside their borders (some more than others, naturally). Turgon gets his news from the eagles, who were directly involved in the quest for the silmaril. They know how Beren and Lúthien got from Angband to Brethil! They met and spoke with Daeron, who told them Lúthien's story to that point. They spoke with Lúthien while transporting her. They are going to have an interest in finding out what happened to these people whose story they became involved in.

Nargothrond and Doriath are both fairly isolationist during this time, but neither has absolutely closed borders. Túrin is in Nargothrond from FA 490-495 (at Gwindor's invitation). During this time, Finduilas falls in love with Túrin, and turns away from Gwindor. When they discuss Túrin, Gwindor warns her that Túrin is not Beren, and that she should really think twice about marrying a mortal. Gwindor was imprisoned in Angband during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (FA 472). So, this suggests that news of the story of Lúthien, princess of Doriath, marrying the mortal Beren had spread to Nargothrond prior to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad...which is unsurprising. Again, an army from Doriath showed up on Nargothrond's doorstep demanding information on Lúthien's whereabouts and in response for a marriage proposal written by Celegorm. News of her wedding to Beren is something that the people of Nargothrond are going to care about!

As for the mortals - folk of Brethil tended Beren's maimed hand, attended the wedding, and encountered Carcharoth. They are part of this story. Those same people then moved to Dor-lómin, so news of the story would have travelled there as well.

So, going into Season 7, I would say it is safe to say that it is common knowledge throughout all of Beleriand that:
  1. Lúthien defeated the sorceror at Tol-in-Gaurhoth
  2. Beren and Lúthien entered Angband and stole a silmaril from Morgoth
  3. Beren and Lúthien got married
  4. Carcharoth was killed in Doriath
  5. Thingol has a silmaril
The death and subsequent return of Beren and Lúthien is one of the most shocking events in their story. Surely that would be talked about as much as the other things! But I imagine there could be confusion, disbelief, and multiple versions of that tale. I recognize that this is not an era of instantaneous communication, but people do interact with one another, and legends do spread. While it would take time for the tale of Beren and Lúthien to be told in full or put in the form of poems or songs, there is significant interest, and it does not take a ridiculously long time, either. Their deeds were very public - these were not secrets to hide. So, given a few years...most people have heard their story. It does not take a full 50 years for this story to spread.




Also, the way the medium of film works, it is very difficult to maintain characters not knowing information that is known to the audience. The audience will assume that everyone knows what they know unless told otherwise, and characters who do not know the information that is known to the audience will appear foolish and uninformed. So, if there is something that no one on screen knows...then it is best to keep that information unknown to the audience as well. If we wanted some aspect of Beren and Lúthien's story to be unknown to a particular character, we would have to go out of our way to establish that this character is ignorant of that detail.

As an example, in Silo (an adaptation of the novel Wool), there is a question about what the landscape outside the silo looks like. There are cameras involved, so is what you are seeing real, or is it an illusion? And if more than one possible vision is presented...which one is the real one? There is a character, early in the show, who has a chance to observe with their own eyes (no cameras/screens), so we know that what that person sees is reality. The viewer...does not see what they see. That was a very important choice; it was IMPERATIVE that the audience not know what that character saw at that time. Because if the audience had seen, all further speculation on the part of other characters would be boring, and anyone who was wrong about what was really going on would be clearly shown to be foolish. But if the audience remains ignorant, and does not know any more than the characters...the question remains open and interesting. The audience needs to discover reality with the point of view character, not a moment ahead, for the story to work.

If we have a reason to establish that a character is ignorant of the major events of their lifetime, we can do so. Tuor is a good example - based on how he was raised, he's limited in his knowledge of the world. But he's not wholly ignorant. We have to be very careful about what gaps we want to give him in his knowledge, and how that will matter for particular scenes.
 
  1. Lúthien defeated the sorceror at Tol-in-Gaurhoth
  2. Beren and Lúthien entered Angband and stole a silmaril from Morgoth
  3. Beren and Lúthien got married
  4. Carcharoth was killed in Doriath
  5. Thingol has a silmaril
The death and subsequent return of Beren and Lúthien is one of the most shocking events in their story. Surely that would be talked about as much as the other things!

The firts death yes. But their return not necesarily.

The return happens delayed, about 3 years later - and the story has already found it natural end with Beren and Luthien 1st death.
A nice tragic story which warns young men not to fall for pretty-face elf-maidens. A perfect story for humans to tell at their campfires and winter evenings - very usable. Nobody among the humans will see it necessary to ask more about it beyond that.

All know Thingol was mourning and then he suddenly got better after 3 years. But why? - He just might have finally "gone over it".
Beren and Luthien go almost immiediately into their self-chosen exile on Tol Galen and Beren never speaks to any mortal again (which - if taken literaly - suggest he kills the dwarves in total silence). Socially he for sure stays dead for all of humanity. Is returned Beren a zombie, ghost, apparition or only a poetical artistic invention of the elves? No one among the humans can tell.

Melian only surmises that Luthien is mortal now - it is not generally spoken about - even Thingol has not registered this. So it is probably noone beyond Melian really understands what that means and none even in Doriath is aware of it. And if Doriath does not know about it - there is also no news to spread about it. Melian is not into gossiping.

But the Feanorians know about reembodiment - the issue that their grandmother refused to do so is a painfull part of their family history and a source of their political struggles. For them the rumours of Luthien's return are not extraordinary in its reembodiment aspect - only insofar as she has not stayed in Valinor. But her return from death - while faster than usual - is not in itself surpising.
What they do with rumours of a returned Beren? The humans they know are not clear about it so they pobably unsure abut it too. But as Beren is a mortal he has to die sooner or later. That much is sure.

Galadriel could be a source of some info about retuned Beren and Luthien to the Feanorians. But how much would Luthien confide in her and how much of what she said in confidence would Galadriel tell to others is another matter.

The Green Elves are isolated and while they do gossip freely among themselves they seldom confide with others.

Annael has exiled himsef in our story so he seeks no contact with others. If he were well-connected he would have send Tuor back among humans again as soon as Tuor was out of his toddler years. I do not see how Annael would have gained much info about the detail of Beren and Luthien story beyond some very basic rumours and why would he have bothered to learn more about it.

BTW Luthien's talk with Mandos is of spiritual nature and people generally do not speak about freely but only if they really have to. So while Luthien reporting the talk privately to Dior might make sense to explain to him that she will die with his father when Dior is grown up - it makes not much sense for her to have talked about it with anybody beyond Beren.

Later Dior has an acute political interest to get that part of the story out into public as he must expect to be contested both as a biological son of Beren by humans and as a valid heir of Thingol by the elves. So he simply has to get his narrative out in a form that proves his identity and descent - and it is best to add some divine legitimation into the mix as well - so his mother's talk with Mandos himself serves this purpose perfectly - even if it means publishing the very private details of his parents spiritual experiences to the whole world. Dior has to "sell his family's privacy" for his own political legitimation.

But before Thingol's murder and Beren's and Luthien's second death nobody concerned has any interest to get those details out into public. Why would they? To the contrary - they recluse themselves.

If we look at the Beren and Luthien story it is in its form not a romantic story but a heroic epic and a half-mythical "origin of a royal bloodline story" depicting the mythical ancestors of the kingly line as semi-divine heroes. This is why we had to actually add the "romance" into it. It is far more a political narrative than a romantic one. So I would assume most of it in-world was composed and circulated during and directy after Dior claiming the throne of Doriath.


And narrative irony plays a significant part in Tolkien's work - most visibly in the story of Turin when he is not aware of his mother and sister being in Doriath or Niniel being Nienor while the audience knows it all along, but also in LOTR when the heroes wonder how much can Sauron know of their plans endevours at which time - all the while the audience is in on the secret. Or the audience being aware the Gollum does not know nor understand Frodo's plan to throw the ring into Orodruin as otherwise Gollum simply would not help Frodo to get into Mordor. So as some narrative irony is unavoidable anyway we must take care to keep track of who reasonably can know what from which source and to what extend at a given time.
 
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The return of Beren and Lúthien from the dead is not a secret - it is well-known in Doriath. In Silm Film, we have shown the-dead-that-live presented to the court in Menegroth.

1691245275043.png

Certainly, it is possible that there may be some distortion of that part of the story as told elsewhere, but it is not a secret known only to Thingol and Melian, either. And no doubt the story spread while they were dead...but we're moving into the time period after their return. News of their return would also spread.

Film is a different medium than a novel. The use of narrative irony in film can create tension, when the audience is aware of a risk or danger that the character is not aware of (such as when Indiana Jones is presented with poisoned dates, and he almost eats one during a conversation). But if there is no tension, simply a wrong belief that some character has...that character often appears foolish. We have to be very, very careful about introducing narrative irony where there is no tension about the character discovering the truth. If they...simply don't know, then they are perceived as an idiot, because the audience knows.
 
The return of Beren and Lúthien from the dead is not a secret - it is well-known in Doriath. In Silm Film, we have shown the-dead-that-live presented to the court in Menegroth.

View attachment 5178

Yet Luthien having become a mortal is neither known to anybody save Melian nor understood nor yet talked about - as having this discussed would make Thingol sad again and that would cause another winter = bring again chaos onto his realm. Nobody has any interest in that. And what is not talked about will not get outside.

As said Luthien being reembodied is not is much extraordinary for elves as her return from Valinor and whatever Beren is now exactly nobody is sure.


Still if everybody generally knows everything that happens anywhere as a rule then having Turin randomly not know stuff will seem very odd and make him look really stupid in comparison - which would detract from the tragedy of his story. He would then just get an expected and well-earned reward for his exceptional stupidity in the eyes of the audience.
 
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Melian only surmises that Luthien is mortal now - it is not generally spoken about - even Thingol has not registered this. So it is probably noone beyond Melian really understands what that means and none even in Doriath is aware of it. And if Doriath does not know about it - there is also no news to spread about it. Melian is not into gossiping.

...

BTW Luthien's talk with Mandos is of spiritual nature and people generally do not speak about freely but only if they really have to. So while Luthien reporting the talk privately to Dior might make sense to explain to him that she will die with his father when Dior is grown up - it makes not much sense for her to have talked about it with anybody beyond Beren.

In Silm Film, Melian and Lúthien do explicitly discuss this in an intimate conversation.

1691264736361.png
 
In Silm Film, Melian and Lúthien do explicitly discuss this in an intimate conversation.

View attachment 5179

? It is not said but only implied in the show. The audience does not know what exactly they are speaking about and much less the Doriathrim and even far less the wholly absent Feanorians.
Or will Melian now sent messages out to all of Beleriand explaining all this in detail?
For all we know Melian might have just said to Luthien: "Do not let your father know, it would break him."
 
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