Worldbuilding in Valinor
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
I used this map (Karen Fonstad) and tried to estimate the distances. Cuiviénen-Beleriand: at least 5000 km or probably up to 10 000 km in walking distance, which sounds a lot but given that the Great Journey took 200 years that means the elves travelled at a speed of less than one kilometer a week, which is close to standing still. Bay of Balar-Bay of Eldamar: less than 4500 km, which means that the distances the returning Noldor covered would never take several years unless they were seriously lost on the way. So... I suggest we don't let the return of the Noldor take 19 years (or 38 years walking cross the Helcaraxë).
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
i was never happy with KWFs continental maps... she took over JRRTs ambarkanta sketches almost to the word making middle-earth not only a very small continent but also ambar as such a very small planet. i always understood the ambarkanta sketches as more schematic... beleriand is in focus and much enlarged otherwisely the overall similarities to africa, india and east-asia on the map wouldn't make any sense... after all aragorn said he traveled the lands of rhun and harad where the stars are strange... so MEs south and east must have stretched far over the southern and eastern hemisphere... the distance between cuivienen and west beleriand should at last be similar to the distance between west-Britain and the Lake Baikal.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
200 years from Cuivienen to Valinor are okay to me as we talk about mass-migration of nomadic clans, but a 19 year ship-journey from Valinor to Beleriand? Even Columbus found his way from Spain to the Bahamas within one year - without knowing the route and probably less sophisticated ships.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
back to mithluin#s original Question I've found this article:
http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/...ow-long-does-it-take-to-cross-the-us-by-horse
"It took two weeks to get from New York City to Chicago by land before rail connection, provided there were good conditions"
So roughly 1000 kilometers from Tirion to Formenos or Tirion to Valmar? It's not the world but quite a good journey... even considering the Elves had well tended paved roads (similar to roman Roads?) and Valinorian Horses (American Quarter Horses on steroids?).
http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/...ow-long-does-it-take-to-cross-the-us-by-horse
"It took two weeks to get from New York City to Chicago by land before rail connection, provided there were good conditions"
So roughly 1000 kilometers from Tirion to Formenos or Tirion to Valmar? It's not the world but quite a good journey... even considering the Elves had well tended paved roads (similar to roman Roads?) and Valinorian Horses (American Quarter Horses on steroids?).
Well, the Great Journey is such a great enterprise and takes such a long time that one can think of a number of reasons that would make it take extra time (stopping at the Misty Mountains; Elwë lost, people looking for him for many years before giving up, etc). The possibility to do something similar for the boat trip of the Noldor is almost impossible.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
This Issue is damn tricky...
"(...)Before its western gate there was a green mound, Ezellohar, that is named also Corollairë(...)"
"(...)Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom near to the golden gates of Valmar(...)"
so what does "before" and "near" mean here... I remember som e tourist advertising say that Giant#s causeway was "just outside Belfast"... its de facto 60 miles north of it! So whatever before or near does mean, I'd say it's definitely closer than 60 miles. What would you call "near or before" Is the Statue of Liberty "near or before" the NY mainland? it's about 1,5 miles I guess, so anything between 60 miles and 1,5 miles would be thinkable.
Also, how large is Valimar? I assume Tirion, Alqualonde and Formenos aren't that big, more like medieval Cities perhaps, or at least not larger than ancient rome... but Valmar is often describes as "great". Is it similar to one of the modern megacities , i mean is it as big as LA or maybe the densely settlet sorroundings of the London Area? That could be quite a large area...
What is said about the Light in Valinor?
The northern Lands, Araman and southern Arvalin are described as Dark... so theere#s not everywhere light in Aman. In connection to Lórien theres sometimes the term twilight used. So I guess Lórien is some distance away from the trees and is only in dim or half-light.
"(...)[If] [the Teleri] wished they could see the light of the Trees, and could tread the golden streets of Valmar and the crystal stairs of Tirion(...)"
Does this mean the Teleri cound't normally see the light from their abodes?
"(...)It is told that even as Fëanor and Fingolfin stood before Manwë there came the mingling of the lights, when both Trees were shining, and the silent city of Valmar was filled with a radiance of silver and gold.(...)"
So seemingly the light in Valmar (directly beside or beyond the trees) is stronger and of a different quality than in the rest of Valinor.
"(...)But Melkor looked north, and saw afar the shining plain, and the silver domes of Valmar gleaming in the mingling of the lights of Telperion and Laurelin.(...)"
So here clearly the south is dark, only the plain of Valinor is described as shining.So Valimar lay in a great plain, while the Trees were on a height.
"(...)in the midst of the plain beyond the mountains they built their city(...)"
another hint, Valimar lay central in a plain behind the Pelori...
"(...)to that low place amid the hills where Valinor may just be glimpsed upon the far off plain; and that opening is nigh Taniquetil where is the strand of Eldamar.(...)"
So Valinor is quite far off from Calacirya/Taniquetil and Eldamar as it can only be glimpsed on from afar...
"(...)Behold there is a low place in that ring of mountains that guards Valinor, and there the shining of the Trees steals through from the plain beyond and gilds the dark waters of the bay..., but a great beach of finest sand, golden in the blaze of Laurelin, white in the light of Silpion, 1 runs inland there, where in the trouble of the ancient seas a shadowy arm of water had groped in toward Valinor, but now there is only a slender water fringed with white. At the head of this long creek there stands a lonely hill which gazes at the loftier mountains.(...)"
hmm... so theres a far wide creek and beach more inland where Tuna is located and this area is still bathed in the shine of the trees...
"(...)Even among the radiant flowers of the Tree-lit gardens of Valinor [the Vanyar and the Noldor] longed still at times to see the stars; and therefore a gap was made in the great walls of the Pelóri, and there in a deep valley that ran down to the sea the Eldar raised a high green hill: Túna it was called. From the west the light of the Trees fell upon it, and its shadow lay ever eastward.... Then through Calacirya, the Pass of Light, the radiance of the Blessed Realm streamed forth, kindling the dark waves to silver and gold, and it touched the Lonely Isle, and its western shore grew green and fair.(...)"
here the light from the trees even reaches the western coasts of Tol Eressea...
"(...)... [Alqualondë] lay upon the confines of Eldamar, north of the Calacirya, where the light of the stars was bright and clear.(...)"
This of course could explain while the Teleri usually did not see the light of the trees... their city did not lay east of calacirya but more to the north, so they were not exposed to the light.
------------------------------------
Enough quotes, Question now is how do we rationalize the description and distances...
some ideas:
-the Himalaya mts are visible from Kathmandu 82.5 miles or 132 KM away, actually the area is known for it#s very beautiful view on the mountains (besides: Ama Dablam would make a terrific Taniquetil! http://www.himalayanwonders.com/blog/the-14-most-beautiful-peaks-of-the-himalayas.html#)
-the Chicago Skyline is visible from Milwaukee 90 miles away :
"(...)one would need to be 5,500 feet high in milwaukee to see the base of a skyscraper in chicago, but with the sears tower standing nearly 1,500' tall and several others over 1,000', you would not have to be at 5,500' high in milwaukee to see the tops of those buildings. this of course is all presuming optimal visibility conditions. (...)"
( http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1089877&page=2)
-New Mexico Atomic Bomb Tests could be seen for 200 miles (http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-first-light-of-the-trinity-atomic-test) this has to do with hight as well... we don#t know exactly how high the two trees were but maybe we could try to guess it with what we know about the visibility of light and curvature of the earth (of course I know... in theory Aman would be a flat world...).
so far i propose:
-the two trees should be more than 60 km high (i know this is not possible...)
-Mahanaxar and Ezellohar are 1,6-60 miles outsode of Valmar
-Valmar is only 1000 miles inland
-Alqualonde is a bit mor north from the Calacirya, possibly more than 90 miles
-the Calacirya if gigantic! Given that Tol Eressea is roughly the size of Britain it should be 400-800 miles wide , so its not so much of a simple pass but more a mountainless lower landscape.
What we haven't thought through yet are the influence of the second world on this:
-Elves see different than we do. They can see much farther and need far less light
-The light of Aman has different physical qualities than the light we know... the Airs from Valinor would probably transport the light in a way like "bubbles", not so much like waves or beams
I probably made many mistakes in this and there are probably many things i did not consider of while thinking this through... any of you thoughts about this?
"(...)Before its western gate there was a green mound, Ezellohar, that is named also Corollairë(...)"
"(...)Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom near to the golden gates of Valmar(...)"
so what does "before" and "near" mean here... I remember som e tourist advertising say that Giant#s causeway was "just outside Belfast"... its de facto 60 miles north of it! So whatever before or near does mean, I'd say it's definitely closer than 60 miles. What would you call "near or before" Is the Statue of Liberty "near or before" the NY mainland? it's about 1,5 miles I guess, so anything between 60 miles and 1,5 miles would be thinkable.
Also, how large is Valimar? I assume Tirion, Alqualonde and Formenos aren't that big, more like medieval Cities perhaps, or at least not larger than ancient rome... but Valmar is often describes as "great". Is it similar to one of the modern megacities , i mean is it as big as LA or maybe the densely settlet sorroundings of the London Area? That could be quite a large area...
What is said about the Light in Valinor?
The northern Lands, Araman and southern Arvalin are described as Dark... so theere#s not everywhere light in Aman. In connection to Lórien theres sometimes the term twilight used. So I guess Lórien is some distance away from the trees and is only in dim or half-light.
"(...)[If] [the Teleri] wished they could see the light of the Trees, and could tread the golden streets of Valmar and the crystal stairs of Tirion(...)"
Does this mean the Teleri cound't normally see the light from their abodes?
"(...)It is told that even as Fëanor and Fingolfin stood before Manwë there came the mingling of the lights, when both Trees were shining, and the silent city of Valmar was filled with a radiance of silver and gold.(...)"
So seemingly the light in Valmar (directly beside or beyond the trees) is stronger and of a different quality than in the rest of Valinor.
"(...)But Melkor looked north, and saw afar the shining plain, and the silver domes of Valmar gleaming in the mingling of the lights of Telperion and Laurelin.(...)"
So here clearly the south is dark, only the plain of Valinor is described as shining.So Valimar lay in a great plain, while the Trees were on a height.
"(...)in the midst of the plain beyond the mountains they built their city(...)"
another hint, Valimar lay central in a plain behind the Pelori...
"(...)to that low place amid the hills where Valinor may just be glimpsed upon the far off plain; and that opening is nigh Taniquetil where is the strand of Eldamar.(...)"
So Valinor is quite far off from Calacirya/Taniquetil and Eldamar as it can only be glimpsed on from afar...
"(...)Behold there is a low place in that ring of mountains that guards Valinor, and there the shining of the Trees steals through from the plain beyond and gilds the dark waters of the bay..., but a great beach of finest sand, golden in the blaze of Laurelin, white in the light of Silpion, 1 runs inland there, where in the trouble of the ancient seas a shadowy arm of water had groped in toward Valinor, but now there is only a slender water fringed with white. At the head of this long creek there stands a lonely hill which gazes at the loftier mountains.(...)"
hmm... so theres a far wide creek and beach more inland where Tuna is located and this area is still bathed in the shine of the trees...
"(...)Even among the radiant flowers of the Tree-lit gardens of Valinor [the Vanyar and the Noldor] longed still at times to see the stars; and therefore a gap was made in the great walls of the Pelóri, and there in a deep valley that ran down to the sea the Eldar raised a high green hill: Túna it was called. From the west the light of the Trees fell upon it, and its shadow lay ever eastward.... Then through Calacirya, the Pass of Light, the radiance of the Blessed Realm streamed forth, kindling the dark waves to silver and gold, and it touched the Lonely Isle, and its western shore grew green and fair.(...)"
here the light from the trees even reaches the western coasts of Tol Eressea...
"(...)... [Alqualondë] lay upon the confines of Eldamar, north of the Calacirya, where the light of the stars was bright and clear.(...)"
This of course could explain while the Teleri usually did not see the light of the trees... their city did not lay east of calacirya but more to the north, so they were not exposed to the light.
------------------------------------
Enough quotes, Question now is how do we rationalize the description and distances...
some ideas:
-the Himalaya mts are visible from Kathmandu 82.5 miles or 132 KM away, actually the area is known for it#s very beautiful view on the mountains (besides: Ama Dablam would make a terrific Taniquetil! http://www.himalayanwonders.com/blog/the-14-most-beautiful-peaks-of-the-himalayas.html#)
-the Chicago Skyline is visible from Milwaukee 90 miles away :
"(...)one would need to be 5,500 feet high in milwaukee to see the base of a skyscraper in chicago, but with the sears tower standing nearly 1,500' tall and several others over 1,000', you would not have to be at 5,500' high in milwaukee to see the tops of those buildings. this of course is all presuming optimal visibility conditions. (...)"
( http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1089877&page=2)
-New Mexico Atomic Bomb Tests could be seen for 200 miles (http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-first-light-of-the-trinity-atomic-test) this has to do with hight as well... we don#t know exactly how high the two trees were but maybe we could try to guess it with what we know about the visibility of light and curvature of the earth (of course I know... in theory Aman would be a flat world...).
so far i propose:
-the two trees should be more than 60 km high (i know this is not possible...)
-Mahanaxar and Ezellohar are 1,6-60 miles outsode of Valmar
-Valmar is only 1000 miles inland
-Alqualonde is a bit mor north from the Calacirya, possibly more than 90 miles
-the Calacirya if gigantic! Given that Tol Eressea is roughly the size of Britain it should be 400-800 miles wide , so its not so much of a simple pass but more a mountainless lower landscape.
What we haven't thought through yet are the influence of the second world on this:
-Elves see different than we do. They can see much farther and need far less light
-The light of Aman has different physical qualities than the light we know... the Airs from Valinor would probably transport the light in a way like "bubbles", not so much like waves or beams
I probably made many mistakes in this and there are probably many things i did not consider of while thinking this through... any of you thoughts about this?
Ray Burns
Active Member
I sort of like the idea of Valinor being a lot larger than most people picture in their headcanon (for example, I've always pictured the Calacirya to be almost a cleft in a narrow mountain range rather than a large alpine valley that divides the Pelori in twain). It will give a scope and grandeur to Valinor (especially when we do the Melkor and Ungoliant look down on Valmar scene). However, if we do make Valinor yuge (heh), we run the risk of making the Noldor look somewhat petty when they complain of being constrained in Valinor. 25,000 elves on a sub-continent the size of Madagascar is a lot different that that many elves on a continent the size of Australia.
As for the time considerations... I think we'll just have to bite the bullet and stray away from Tolkien just for it all to make sense. We can rationalize this by saying that the 38 years being quoted was poetic license being used to denote the scale of suffering, tragedy and perseverance that Fingolfin's host showed in crossing the Helcaraxe ('the journey seemed to last for 38 years, so great was the struggle'). And, as I recall, when Fingolfin's host arrives at Lake Mithrim, Feanor's host is still on the northern shore, which would make one wonder what exactly they were doing for 38 years.
I propose that we say the journey of the Noldor from Alqualonde to the Helcaraxe take no longer than 2 weeks. Fingolfin's host, being large, is strung out for many miles and it takes another week for the entire host of Fingolfin to assemble. Feanor leaves Fingolfin's host and journeys across the sea for 10 days, so Fingolfin's host is fully assembled for 3 days before Feanor burns the ships when they arrive at Losgar. (if the world is flat, the far seeing Noldor can see the actual burning. If the world is round, we can say that the wood of the Teleri ships burns both brightly and with a certain smoke that the far seeing Noldor can see over the curve of the world). Fingolfin's host (having already sent out scouts during the 3 days) departs across the Helcaraxe. This journey takes approximately one month (30 days). During that Month, Feanor makes his encampment on Mithrim (3 days). Morgoth assembles his host and attacks the Feanorians in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath (8 days). Noldor win the battle and continue the fight by chasing the fleeing orcs and during this pursuit is when Feanor outruns his company and is assaulted by Balrogs (3 days). Feanor dies. Maedhros becomes High King and begins to fortify the encampment (10 days). Maedhros is betrayed and captured by Morgoth at about the same time that Fingolfin's host finishes crossing the Helcaraxe (6 days). Maedhros is chained to Thangorodrim and sees Fingolfin's host briefly lay siege to Angband (this is why he conceives of the idea of renouncing his claim to the throne, because he witnesses firsthand how awesome Fingolfin is). Fingolfin's host arrives at Lake Mithrim 38 days after being betrayed by Feanor. Fingon then goes forth to rescue Maedhros (rescue and return takes 8 days). Thus, some 50 days after being betrayed, Fingolfin is named High King.
All of these days can be manipulated as we see fit, but I personally think that we have to compress the timeline. If we show the fire and fury of Feanor and the Noldor as they leave Valinor and how ruthless they've become through the Kinslaying, I can see no better way to dilute that impression of righteous anger than to even hint that it then takes them 38 years to actually begin doing things.
just my thoughts.
As for the time considerations... I think we'll just have to bite the bullet and stray away from Tolkien just for it all to make sense. We can rationalize this by saying that the 38 years being quoted was poetic license being used to denote the scale of suffering, tragedy and perseverance that Fingolfin's host showed in crossing the Helcaraxe ('the journey seemed to last for 38 years, so great was the struggle'). And, as I recall, when Fingolfin's host arrives at Lake Mithrim, Feanor's host is still on the northern shore, which would make one wonder what exactly they were doing for 38 years.
I propose that we say the journey of the Noldor from Alqualonde to the Helcaraxe take no longer than 2 weeks. Fingolfin's host, being large, is strung out for many miles and it takes another week for the entire host of Fingolfin to assemble. Feanor leaves Fingolfin's host and journeys across the sea for 10 days, so Fingolfin's host is fully assembled for 3 days before Feanor burns the ships when they arrive at Losgar. (if the world is flat, the far seeing Noldor can see the actual burning. If the world is round, we can say that the wood of the Teleri ships burns both brightly and with a certain smoke that the far seeing Noldor can see over the curve of the world). Fingolfin's host (having already sent out scouts during the 3 days) departs across the Helcaraxe. This journey takes approximately one month (30 days). During that Month, Feanor makes his encampment on Mithrim (3 days). Morgoth assembles his host and attacks the Feanorians in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath (8 days). Noldor win the battle and continue the fight by chasing the fleeing orcs and during this pursuit is when Feanor outruns his company and is assaulted by Balrogs (3 days). Feanor dies. Maedhros becomes High King and begins to fortify the encampment (10 days). Maedhros is betrayed and captured by Morgoth at about the same time that Fingolfin's host finishes crossing the Helcaraxe (6 days). Maedhros is chained to Thangorodrim and sees Fingolfin's host briefly lay siege to Angband (this is why he conceives of the idea of renouncing his claim to the throne, because he witnesses firsthand how awesome Fingolfin is). Fingolfin's host arrives at Lake Mithrim 38 days after being betrayed by Feanor. Fingon then goes forth to rescue Maedhros (rescue and return takes 8 days). Thus, some 50 days after being betrayed, Fingolfin is named High King.
All of these days can be manipulated as we see fit, but I personally think that we have to compress the timeline. If we show the fire and fury of Feanor and the Noldor as they leave Valinor and how ruthless they've become through the Kinslaying, I can see no better way to dilute that impression of righteous anger than to even hint that it then takes them 38 years to actually begin doing things.
just my thoughts.
Ray, I think your timeline is way too compressed, but in the end, that might not matter. Tolkien did try out different ideas of time here, with the 'rushed' departure from Tirion to go to Alqualondë...maybe taking a year. The important part is the rushing, not the amount of time that passes.
Keep in mind that up until this point, we've seen years pass between (and even during) episodes. An entire generation grows up between one episode and the next at several points in Season 2 (Celeborn at Cuivienen; Fëanor born in one episode and married in the next; the older grandsons of Finwë introduced, and the youngest born in the next episode, and they are all adults in the next). Melkor's 'probation' (which surely lasts years) is accomplished in one episode with a timeskip in it.
So, the passage of time is not important - we have trained the audience that 'and then time passes' happens all the time, possibly whenever the camera cuts between scenes. Going to a 'real time' movement of time in Season 3 will be a bit tricky, so the audience may be filling in gap years on their own at that point!
What *is* important is which events happen contemporaneously, and in what order. Does it take 40 days or 40 years to cross the Helcaraxë? Not important. What does matter is that Elenwë, wife of Turgon and mother of the child Idril, dies in that crossing, and that it is shown as a great hardship. They are crossing an ice desert; supplies are an issue. They should be shown to be running short on food, to contrast with the ease of life in Valinor. That....probably can't happen in just a few weeks, as they are no doubt well-supplied when they first leave. Also...elves don't starve right away. Also also, the Valar have to invent the Sun and the Moon during this time, and that's probably not an instantaneous thing. So, we have to imply some passage of time, but we don't need to specify how *much* time has passed....just that it's getting to be long enough that the crossing is an issue. If we *do* want it to be as long as 40 years, we should show Idril grown up when they arrive in Middle Earth. If we want it to be a matter of months, not years, then she should be the same child actress from the Darkening/Oathtaking scene. So, really, that's our decision on time - how close is Fingolfin's host to starvation (and are they managing to, like, go ice fishing or something?), and how much does Idril grow up during the crossing? The answer to that question will determine how much infrastructure we show the Fëanorean host building in Mithrim.
I realize that believing Maedhros can hang by his wrist for years and not be dead is a stretch of the imagination, and therefore the desire to limit that ordeal to more like a week makes it more believable. BUT. This is a world with magic. When Morgoth imprisons you, he knows how to make sure you don't (can't) die [just ask Húrin]. We can show Maedhros in a more 'traditional' dungeon prior to chaining him to the cliff, but I do not want to do *anything* to imply he was rescued right away. That experience had a huge impact on him (and I don't just mean because it cost him his hand). He begs Fingon to kill him, so he is well beyond his point of endurance, and in battle after that, he is 'as one who returns from the dead.' What his spirit endured during his captivity is being compared to being ripped from your body and tossed in the Halls of Mandos. Granted, I likely can't last more than 3 days under those conditions, but I'm not an elf of Valinor, either. It's got to take him some time to recover from that ordeal. I...likely have a lot to say on this topic and will cut myself short.
Keep in mind that up until this point, we've seen years pass between (and even during) episodes. An entire generation grows up between one episode and the next at several points in Season 2 (Celeborn at Cuivienen; Fëanor born in one episode and married in the next; the older grandsons of Finwë introduced, and the youngest born in the next episode, and they are all adults in the next). Melkor's 'probation' (which surely lasts years) is accomplished in one episode with a timeskip in it.
So, the passage of time is not important - we have trained the audience that 'and then time passes' happens all the time, possibly whenever the camera cuts between scenes. Going to a 'real time' movement of time in Season 3 will be a bit tricky, so the audience may be filling in gap years on their own at that point!
What *is* important is which events happen contemporaneously, and in what order. Does it take 40 days or 40 years to cross the Helcaraxë? Not important. What does matter is that Elenwë, wife of Turgon and mother of the child Idril, dies in that crossing, and that it is shown as a great hardship. They are crossing an ice desert; supplies are an issue. They should be shown to be running short on food, to contrast with the ease of life in Valinor. That....probably can't happen in just a few weeks, as they are no doubt well-supplied when they first leave. Also...elves don't starve right away. Also also, the Valar have to invent the Sun and the Moon during this time, and that's probably not an instantaneous thing. So, we have to imply some passage of time, but we don't need to specify how *much* time has passed....just that it's getting to be long enough that the crossing is an issue. If we *do* want it to be as long as 40 years, we should show Idril grown up when they arrive in Middle Earth. If we want it to be a matter of months, not years, then she should be the same child actress from the Darkening/Oathtaking scene. So, really, that's our decision on time - how close is Fingolfin's host to starvation (and are they managing to, like, go ice fishing or something?), and how much does Idril grow up during the crossing? The answer to that question will determine how much infrastructure we show the Fëanorean host building in Mithrim.
I realize that believing Maedhros can hang by his wrist for years and not be dead is a stretch of the imagination, and therefore the desire to limit that ordeal to more like a week makes it more believable. BUT. This is a world with magic. When Morgoth imprisons you, he knows how to make sure you don't (can't) die [just ask Húrin]. We can show Maedhros in a more 'traditional' dungeon prior to chaining him to the cliff, but I do not want to do *anything* to imply he was rescued right away. That experience had a huge impact on him (and I don't just mean because it cost him his hand). He begs Fingon to kill him, so he is well beyond his point of endurance, and in battle after that, he is 'as one who returns from the dead.' What his spirit endured during his captivity is being compared to being ripped from your body and tossed in the Halls of Mandos. Granted, I likely can't last more than 3 days under those conditions, but I'm not an elf of Valinor, either. It's got to take him some time to recover from that ordeal. I...likely have a lot to say on this topic and will cut myself short.
Ray Burns
Active Member
Don't get me wrong. I totally agree that it's what happens in the time that is more important than the time taken itself. My problem is that with three different things going on at once, it's hard to reconcile them all into the same timeframe without one looking much the worse. It's a pretty problem to be sure. How to reconcile the time it takes for the Valar to create the Sun and the Moon, Fingolfin's host to cross the Helcaraxe, and Feanor's group to a) fight one battle, b) have Feanor killed, c) have Maedhros betrayed, and d) have Maedhros hanging out (sorry, couldn't resist) while, presumably, Maglor assume the role of leader (if not King) and tries to keep his brothers in check.
Maybe a way to solve this is to include the first contacts with the Sindar and Thingol by the Feanorians and have King Maedhros send his brothers out to 'scout' for new lands. This would set up some of the original tension between Thingol and the Sons of Feanor and would also explain how once Maedhros is rescued, he can send his brothers off to their timeouts because they've already established beachheads in those new lands.
Maybe a way to solve this is to include the first contacts with the Sindar and Thingol by the Feanorians and have King Maedhros send his brothers out to 'scout' for new lands. This would set up some of the original tension between Thingol and the Sons of Feanor and would also explain how once Maedhros is rescued, he can send his brothers off to their timeouts because they've already established beachheads in those new lands.
Concerning visibility:
For a black object against a white background, "in the cleanest possible atmosphere, visibility is limited to about 296 km (184 miles)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visibility
For comparison, here is a visibility weather map of the US today, showing most places with a visibility of ~ 8-10 miles:
https://www.wunderground.com/US/Region/US/2xpxVisibility.html
This does not take into account the quality of elf-vision, and obviously a very bright object can be seen against a dark background at a greater distance, because it does not rely on reflected light.
Also, for the light of the Trees, keep in mind that they are planted on a hill, so not all of their height has to be the heights of trees. But they should be living things, so while they might be unusually tall for a tree, they can't be RIDICULOUSLY tall for a tree - that's what the Lamps were for.
For a black object against a white background, "in the cleanest possible atmosphere, visibility is limited to about 296 km (184 miles)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visibility
For comparison, here is a visibility weather map of the US today, showing most places with a visibility of ~ 8-10 miles:
https://www.wunderground.com/US/Region/US/2xpxVisibility.html
This does not take into account the quality of elf-vision, and obviously a very bright object can be seen against a dark background at a greater distance, because it does not rely on reflected light.
Also, for the light of the Trees, keep in mind that they are planted on a hill, so not all of their height has to be the heights of trees. But they should be living things, so while they might be unusually tall for a tree, they can't be RIDICULOUSLY tall for a tree - that's what the Lamps were for.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
What if the hill was made of ice though? 
Ray Burns
Active Member
There is one thing that we can consider that might help. What if the Plains of Valinor are actually a plateau that are 1-2 miles higher in elevation than the land on the east side of the Calacirya? And if the Calacirya itself slopes from Valmar to the Bay of Eldamar, an Elf in Eldamar could be as much as 2 miles lower than where the Two Trees stood on Ezellohar. So the flowering crowns of the Trees could be over 10,000 feet higher than what someone might be seeing in Eldamar or Tuna without the trees themselves being unreasonably high.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
i kind of would like the idea of the two trees visually merging with noctilucent clouds on the sky.
i think we can happily ignore tolkien's timeline at this point.a one year travel for feanors fleet seems reasonable while the host crossing the helcaraxe should need some more time (if we take the estimated 4000 miles + journey). what is important for a depiction on film should be the logistic problem of the journey as well as the hardships. we should show a host of men-at-arms, women, chhildren, horses and other animals boarding very large and capable ships, shipwrecking, storms and all kinds of a troubled sea voyage as well as similar trouble for a mass migration of armed men, women, children,horses,cattle,carriage and resources crossing the ice-desert, including all sorts of trouble and obstacles connected with such a journey.
i think we can happily ignore tolkien's timeline at this point.a one year travel for feanors fleet seems reasonable while the host crossing the helcaraxe should need some more time (if we take the estimated 4000 miles + journey). what is important for a depiction on film should be the logistic problem of the journey as well as the hardships. we should show a host of men-at-arms, women, chhildren, horses and other animals boarding very large and capable ships, shipwrecking, storms and all kinds of a troubled sea voyage as well as similar trouble for a mass migration of armed men, women, children,horses,cattle,carriage and resources crossing the ice-desert, including all sorts of trouble and obstacles connected with such a journey.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
one more question... as promised i've redrawn my aman map
http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?media/amannew2-kopie.90/full&d=1483511129
now, what is the helcaraxe like? is it purely grinding ice or is it also snowed land, part of the continental mass of aman or maybe even northern islets cinnected by frozen ocean? what to do about the snippets ("green land" "ice land" "northern isles") tolkien guves us in lost tales?
http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?media/amannew2-kopie.90/full&d=1483511129
now, what is the helcaraxe like? is it purely grinding ice or is it also snowed land, part of the continental mass of aman or maybe even northern islets cinnected by frozen ocean? what to do about the snippets ("green land" "ice land" "northern isles") tolkien guves us in lost tales?
Ren
Member
Nice map. It reminds me a bit of the 'Bering Bridge', where the Inuit crossed from Asia to North America.
I always imagined the Helcaraxe as a bridge made of pack ice. Once it is melted you can not cross anymore by foot. But yes, I would say mainland, islands and rocks are also part of the Helcaraxe. As long as everything is frozen over, who can tell the difference anyway?
I always imagined the Helcaraxe as a bridge made of pack ice. Once it is melted you can not cross anymore by foot. But yes, I would say mainland, islands and rocks are also part of the Helcaraxe. As long as everything is frozen over, who can tell the difference anyway?
I really don't see this as a problem. After Maedhros' capture, the Fëanorean camp is stalled. What can they do? They refuse to negotiate with Morgoth (for obvious reasons), they refuse to give up their Oath/claim on the silmarils....but they can't attack Angband, either. They are...stuck.
So, yes, they more-or-less just sit at Mithrim and bicker a lot. That is where we see the first contact with the Sindar and the first exploration of Beleriand, so we can have some scenes with them while the other things (creation of the Sun/Moon, crossing of the Helcaraxë) are going on. Also, we can certainly see their temporary camp at Mithrim become a lot more permanent, as a way of showing 'time passes'.
Also, regardless of how long it takes for the Valar to hide Valinor and make the Sun and the Moon....we will just put those scenes in where they make sense. We're not following the Valar in real time, so the audience is unlikely to ask 'what have those guys been doing all this time?' if we show the enchanted isles shrouded in mist at some point, and the Sun and the Moon rising after we show whatever we are going to show for the 'Making Of' process there.
[And then the Set and Lighting crews rejoiced, as they don't have to do any more seasons entirely in firelight, torchlight, lamplight and starlight. The Perennial Dusk is over!]