Session 5-01: Pre-production

Rhiannon said:
That will depend on what else is happening in the episode.

Here is a list of what I think will happen with the Gondolin/Aredhel and Maeglin plotline. These do not all necessarily need to be shown, and several will probably happen in the same episodes, but I hope it will help give a idea of how this story progresses.
  • Aredhel becomes dissatisfied with Gondolin
  • FA 316 - Aredhel confronts Turgon and leaves Gondolin, loses the lords sent with her in Nan Dungortheb, visits Aglon but Celegorm and Curufin are not there
  • Aredhel goes wandering again, gets lost in Nan Elmoth, meets Eol
  • Eol tells Aredhel the story of how he gave Anglachel to Thingol in exchange for Nan Elmoth
  • Aredhel marries Eol
  • Turgon learns that Aredhel is lost and assumes the worst
  • Maeglin born, Aredhel names him Lomion
  • Maeglin is 12, Eol names him Maeglin
  • Maeglin grows up hearing stories of Gondolin from Aredhel and visiting the Dwarves with Eol
  • FA 400 - Arehel and Maeglin leave Nan Elmoth and go to Gondolin
  • Eol follows them and encounters Curufin
  • Confrontation between Turgon and Eol
  • Eol kills Aredhel then is executed
  • Maeglin in Gondolin, loved by everyone but Idril
How much of Eol's interactions with the Dwarves do we want to show? We could potentially have a story set in Nogrod or Belegost. Also, the Feanorians, particularly Caranthir, are on friendly terms with the Dwarves, and The Silmarillion says "Celegorm and Curufin were mighty lords who loved Eol not at all," which suggests they may have met him before Curufin's encounter with Eol in The Silmarillion.

We will also have the making of the Nauglamir this season. Maybe Eol and the Feanorians could be somehow connected to that. Maybe Curufin, Celebrimbor, and/or Celegorm could travel to Nargothrond when the Nauglamir is delivered, so they will know the way there in the future. It would be funny if one of the Feanorians sees the Nauglamir and says something like, "Hmmm. It would look better with a large central jewel." :)

I don't know if it is logistically possible, but it also might be interesting for Celebrimbor and Maeglin to meet before Maeglin goes to Gondolin. They have a lot in common, being great craftsmen who are the sons of great craftsmen, and I feel like they would get along.
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Well, we might show at least one, just to show what Eol does on his business trips. Indeed, he's on one when Aredhel and Maeglin fly the coop.

Perhaps this is where Celegorm and Curufin bump into him?
 
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Octoburn said:
We really should have a "lore keeper" similar to what Brian Cogman did for Game of Thrones. He basically kept their in-show lore in check, knowing who was where and did what at what point in the story (though this seems to have broken down the last two seasons.) It could be in a word doc, or even a spreadsheet, with characters in one column, and each season in adjacent columns, with what they do in that season in the intersecting cell of the spreadsheet. This is how I usually keep track of over multiple chapters/issues of something I'm writing with a large cast. I've got most of the Silmarillion stuff down, but trying to keep up with how y'all have expanded gets me sometimes.
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I was asked a while ago to create a thread where I keep track of minor characters that I introduced in the scripts. Here it is. It's not exactly what you are looking for, but it may help you with some of the little changes and additions we have made. The episode outlines are also really helpful to scan if you are trying to remember a particular detail about something.

If you think you can create and maintain a "lore keeper" for SilmFilm, by all means, go for it. Or, if you want to make a dedicated thread and/or Google spreadsheet with an open link to it, I will contribute to it as much as I can.
 
Rhiannon said:
I was asked a while ago to create a thread where I keep track of minor characters that I introduced in the scripts. Here it is. It's not exactly what you are looking for, but it may help you with some of the little changes and additions we have made. The episode outlines are also really helpful to scan if you are trying to remember a particular detail about something.

If you think you can create and maintain a "lore keeper" for SilmFilm, by all means, go for it. Or, if you want to make a dedicated thread and/or Google spreadsheet with an open link to it, I will contribute to it as much as I can.
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@Nicholas Palazzo tried to make a wiki awhile back. It didn't gain much traction, but it could be quite useful.

Maybe we could resurrect the wiki idea?
 
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Octoburn said:
We really should have a "lore keeper" similar to what Brian Cogman did for Game of Thrones. He basically kept their in-show lore in check, knowing who was where and did what at what point in the story (though this seems to have broken down the last two seasons.) It could be in a word doc, or even a spreadsheet, with characters in one column, and each season in adjacent columns, with what they do in that season in the intersecting cell of the spreadsheet. This is how I usually keep track of over multiple chapters/issues of something I'm writing with a large cast. I've got most of the Silmarillion stuff down, but trying to keep up with how y'all have expanded gets me sometimes.
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He wasn't that good at it, as part of a generation got skipped over in the show.

In the books, there are three generations of Targaryens before Daenerys' siblings. The first includes the children of Maekar I: Daeron Targaryen (called the Drunk), Aerion Targaryen (called the Monstrous), Maester Aemon, Daella Targaryen, King Aegon V Targaryen (known as Aegon the Unlikely), and Rhae Targaryen. Aegon had five children: Duncan the Small (married Jenny of Oldstones and resigned all claim to the throne), Jaehaerys II (married his sister Shaera and sired Aerys II the Mad King), the aforementioned Shaera, Daeron (KIA in 251 AC), and Rhaelle (married into House Baratheon; she is grandmother of Robert Baratheon).

The complication that the show has created is that in this version, Aegon V has three sons: Duncan, Aerys II (who was moved up from being a grandson to a son of Aegon V) and Daeron. So the Baratheons' relation to the Targaryens is a lot more vague in the show. Not really sure if this was deliberate choice or not knowing the text.
 
Rhiannon said:
I believe what you are referring to is the "Tale of Adanel," which is appended to the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth." It is the one where Men hear the Voice that guides them but tries to get them to learn and do a lot on their own, then another being comes and gives them gifts and teaches them but wants Men to worship him. Because of this, the Voice punishes them with death and short lifespans. Does that sound right? There is also some stuff in the Book of Lost Tales that deals with the Awakening of Men, but I am not sure how compatible that is with our story.

I am pretty sure the "Tale of Adanel" was meant to be an example of one of the legends Men had about their past, not what actually happened. There was definitely some kind of Fall of Man that Melkor brought about, but I think Tolkien was adamant about death really being a gift from Iluvatar in his legendarium.

I think we could allude to elements of it, even suggest that Men were seduced into worshiping Melkor, but I do not think we should tell the full story unless we are very clear that it is a legend that has been distorted, and it should not be told willingly.

In Episode 6 of Season 4, we already had a brief shot of Morgoth standing atop a temple during the eclipse with Men bowing around him, and Morgoth hinted when he returned from the east that he had done something really horrible. Mairon and Thuringwethil were accounted for at this time, so I do not think they were part of the Fall of Man. As for going among Men to sew distrust after they cross into Beleriand, The Silmarillion does say "certain it is that he [Morgoth] knew of the coming of Men into Beleriand and of their growing friendship with the Elves." Sauron and Thuringwethil could spy on Men and maybe do some preliminary sewing of dissent to set up for the debate with fake Amlach.

One thing I noticed when rereading was that, when Men are camped in Estolad, "Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers of welcome to them." Perhaps a recently-freed Annael could be one of those messengers, and the information he reports to Thuringwethil could be about Men. That would give us a chance to tie together the story of the arrival of Men with the escape of Rhogrin and Annael.
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Thought about the Tale of Adanel: Andreth doesn't seem to have told the Tale of Adanel to anyone. Did she decide that the story of Men's fall would die with her?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
He wasn't that good at it, as part of a generation got skipped over in the show.

In the books, there are three generations of Targaryens before Daenerys' siblings. The first includes the children of Maekar I: Daeron Targaryen (called the Drunk), Aerion Targaryen (called the Monstrous), Maester Aemon, Daella Targaryen, King Aegon V Targaryen (known as Aegon the Unlikely), and Rhae Targaryen. Aegon had five children: Duncan the Small (married Jenny of Oldstones and resigned all claim to the throne), Jaehaerys II (married his sister Shaera and sired Aerys II the Mad King), the aforementioned Shaera, Daeron (KIA in 251 AC), and Rhaelle (married into House Baratheon; she is grandmother of Robert Baratheon).

The complication that the show has created is that in this version, Aegon V has three sons: Duncan, Aerys II (who was moved up from being a grandson to a son of Aegon V) and Daeron. So the Baratheons' relation to the Targaryens is a lot more vague in the show. Not really sure if this was deliberate choice or not knowing the text.
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A. I'm not sure the decision was Cogman's to make. It was more than likely a decision of the showrunners.

B. Is it really relevant to the show itself? I mean, yeah, it's cool that Robert had some kind of claim to the throne, but the show never even mentions that, that I recall, leaning simply on the fact that Robert took the throne by force.

C. He was the "lore keeper" or whatever they called it, for the show, that's why I emphasized "Show-lore" not simply the lore of the books. The show was always going to be different from the books, so I don't blame those kind of decisions on him.

D. I didn't say we needed someone to do it the way he did, just someone who does that type of job would be helpful.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Thought about the Tale of Adanel: Andreth doesn't seem to have told the Tale of Adanel to anyone. Did she decide that the story of Men's fall would die with her?
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The legends of Men concerning their fall are uncertain, and I don't think Andreth knows definitively what happened. Tolkien's commentary on the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth says "[Finrod] uncovers a concomitant tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster, about which human lore is unclear, or Andreth is at least unwilling to say much." The note on this commentary (Note 9) explains this further: "It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more. Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men from revealing to the Elves all that they knew about the darkness in their past; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind about the conflicting human traditions."

This note goes on to explain just what the "Tale of Adanel is within the fictional frame: "Longer recensions of the Athrabeth, evidently edited under Numenorean influence make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer ... In one version a complete legend ... is given explicitly as a Numenorean tradition ... The legend bears certain resemblances to the Numenorean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Numenor. But his does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the people of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise."
 
Heh, 'lore keeper' is almost certainly a hat I wear here, as I do try to make it my job to remind Corey Olsen of any decisions already made as he discusses things on the podcast. And I do agree that keeping straight the difference between 'published Silmarillion', 'other assorted texts Tolkien wrote' and 'Silm Film story' can be confusing, especially where those things aren't in agreement. Obviously, our goal is to be compatible with the published Silmarillion (expanding on it rather than contradicting it), but there are points where our story is different from Tolkien's in the details. There are likely times when my memory will fail and I will forget some details.

For Season 4, we did have a spreadsheet to keep track of various storylines across the episodes. We called it a GANTT chart, but that is a bit ambitious. It was a spreadsheet, but wasn't really set up with interlocking milestones or anything like that. Also, it was a planning tool, and wasn't necessarily kept up to date as the season progressed. I would certainly be interested in creating a similar tool for Season 5, to keep track of our storylines and plan out our episodes during the pre-production stage.

A wiki is a lot of work to create and maintain. If someone wants to take on that project, they can go for it, and I would do my best to help keep it accurate. I am not, however, going to volunteer to create a wiki for this project myself.



Now, on to the question of the 'backstory' of Men. We are telling the story of Men from an elf-centric viewpoint, so there have only been 'teasers' for the audience so far, prior to their arrival in Beleriand. At the end of Season 3, we showed the awakening of the children of Men with the rising of the Sun. In Season 4, we had Morgoth involved in unspecified activities out east, with only a glimpse of what he was up to (worshipers at a temple during an eclipse). And then if the final scene of Season 4, Finrod discovers the camp of sleeping Men and picks up a harp.

We will begin Season 5 from Bëor's perspective, so we might 'back up' a bit from before Finrod wanders into their camp - show them crossing the mountains, have them discuss what they hope to find in Beleriand, and then Finrod's arrival speaking a 'foreign' language (subtitled Sindarin). Since we will be showing the Mannish perspective, they can be discussing what was happening in the East - not in a 'as you know' way, but references made in passing, as they compare the land of Beleriand to the place (and people) they left behind. Obviously, we haven't actually planned Episode 1 yet, so this is just conjecture as to one possible way of handling this.

So, while we likely wouldn't show the interaction between Angband and the Edain in Season 5, we can allude to it, and take steps to set up the Easterlings prior to the battle of Unnumbered Tears.

Our stories are going to stay elf-centric, but that doesn't mean we can't have subplots that are dwarf-centric or men-centric or villain-centric. We can and do and will. It's just a matter of keeping those subplots part of the greater whole. We have not really shown the interior of Belegost or Nogrod yet on screen. There has been a glimpse of Telchar's smithy, but that's it. They are places that have been referenced, but we've only 'met' the dwarves when they come out to interact with the elves. We likely will have a chance to see the interior of Belegost more fully this season with Eol and Maeglin visiting there. And Nogrod has barely been part of the story at all, but that will likely change here in Season 5 as well.
 
Okay, so I'm starting to put the information together for the (eventual) GANTT chart for Season 5. I started with the storylines of the Men:

5House of Bëor
5.1Bëor meets Finrod and agrees to go to Nargothrond (FA 311)
5.2Encampment at Estolad
5.3Fighting at Maglor's Gap
5.4Death of Bëor (FA 355)
5.5Boromir moves to Ladros in Dorthonion (FA 410)
5.6Andreth (young woman) meets Aegnor (c. FA 380)
5.6.1Andreth (middle aged woman) and Finrod discuss Aegnor
5.6.2Death of Andreth (elderly woman)
5.7Death of Bregolas in Dagor Bragollach (FA 455)
5.8Emeldir leads women and children to safety in Brethil?
6House of Hador
6.1Enters Beleriand in multiple hosts
6.2Settles in Estolad
6.3Council (FA 369)
6.3.1Fake!Amlach and Bereg speak against joining the elven war
6.3.2Amlach joins Maedhros
6.3.3Bereg leads Men from Beleriand to Eriador, not taking part in the war
6.4Magor moves to Hithlum/Ered Wethrin (does not serve elf-lord)
6.5Hador becomes Lord of Dor-lomin
6.5.1Death of Hador in the Dagor Bragollach (FA 455)
7House of Haleth (Haladin)
7.1Conflict with the Green Elves of Ossiriand
7.2Settle in Thargellion
7.3Attack on their camp (FA 375)
7.3.1Death of Haldad and Haldar at stockade
7.3.2Caranthir meets Haleth
7.4Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb
7.5Settle in Forest of Brethil
7.6Beleg assists them in fighting off Sauron's forces (FA 456)


Based on this, it seems the Human storylines will be (in this order):
Bëor
Marach (renamed Hador?)
Amlach
Bereg
Magor
Haldad/Haldar
Haleth
Andreth
Boromir
Hador
Bregolas
Emeldir

My guess is that no human will be alive for more than 3 episodes this season. So, we will have to tie all their stories together in a way that makes sense over the course of the season. Am I forgetting anyone who does something significant enough to be called out as part of this? The italicized names are more supporting characters, but will be named on screen at some point, as they all do something significant (not just born/have kids/die)
 
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MithLuin said:
Okay, so I'm starting to put the information together for the (eventual) GANTT chart for Season 5. I started with the storylines of the Men:

5House of Bëor
5.1Bëor meets Finrod and agrees to go to Nargothrond (FA 311)
5.2Encampment at Estolad
5.3Fighting at Maglor's Gap
5.4Death of Bëor (FA 355)
5.5Boromir moves to Ladros in Dorthonion (FA 410)
5.6Andreth (young woman) meets Aegnor (c. FA 380)
5.6.1Andreth (middle aged woman) and Finrod discuss Aegnor
5.6.2Death of Andreth (elderly woman)
5.7Death of Bregolas in Dagor Bragollach (FA 455)
5.8Emeldir leads women and children to safety in Brethil?
6House of Hador
6.1Enters Beleriand in multiple hosts
6.2Settles in Estolad
6.3Council (FA 369)
6.3.1Fake!Amlach speaks against joining the elven war
6.3.2Amlach joins Maedhros
6.4Magor moves to Hithlum/Ered Wethrin (does not serve elf-lord)
6.5Hador becomes Lord of Dor-lomin
6.5.1Death of Hador in the Dagor Bragollach (FA 455)
7House of Haleth (Haladin)
7.1Conflict with the Green Elves of Ossiriand
7.2Settle in Thargellion
7.3Attack on their camp (FA 375)
7.3.1Death of Haldad and Haldar at stockade
7.3.2Caranthir meets Haleth
7.4Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb
7.5Settle in Forest of Brethil
7.6Beleg assists them in fighting off Sauron's forces (FA 456)


Based on this, it seems the Human storylines will be (in this order):
Bëor
Marach (renamed Hador?)
Amlach
Magor
Haldad/Haldar
Haleth
Andreth
Boromir
Hador
Bregolas
Emeldir

My guess is that no human will be alive for more than 3 episodes this season. So, we will have to tie all their stories together in a way that makes sense over the course of the season. Am I forgetting anyone who does something significant enough to be called out as part of this? The italicized names are more supporting characters, but will be named on screen at some point, as they all do something significant (not just born/have kids/die)
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For the House of Beor: doesn’t Bereg speak against the Elves at the same event where Amlach is impersonated? And some of the House of Beor goes to Dor-Lomin since this is how Morwen and Rian are there and Hurin and Huor marry them.
 
Emeldir leads the refugees from Dorthonion to the Forest of Brethil. After that, some do go to Dor-Lomin, it's true, but that's not a Season 5 thing. I'm honestly not even sure if Emeldir's journey is a season 5 or Season 6 question yet, but I figured I'd include it here, and if it gets bumped back until later, fine.

I'll add Bereg to the list.
 
Rhiannon said:
We will also have the making of the Nauglamir this season. Maybe Eol and the Feanorians could be somehow connected to that. Maybe Curufin, Celebrimbor, and/or Celegorm could travel to Nargothrond when the Nauglamir is delivered, so they will know the way there in the future. It would be funny if one of the Feanorians sees the Nauglamir and says something like, "Hmmm. It would look better with a large central jewel." :)
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The Nauglamir will be made by Zirak of Nogrod. Up until now, the dwarves of Nogrod have not had much interaction with the elves of Beleriand, so we certainly will have to tell a story of how that happens - why Nogrod and Nargothrond? What is the connection there? And why does Nogrod change its mind and decide to get involved, when prior to this, it was mostly a Belegost thing?

I don't think we'd have a reason to involve the Fëanoreans in that plotline, but we could, possibly. Finrod gets along with everyone, including Fëanoreans, Men, Sindar, Dwarves, etc.
 
MithLuin said:
The Nauglamir will be made by Zirak of Nogrod. Up until now, the dwarves of Nogrod have not had much interaction with the elves of Beleriand, so we certainly will have to tell a story of how that happens - why Nogrod and Nargothrond? What is the connection there? And why does Nogrod change its mind and decide to get involved, when prior to this, it was mostly a Belegost thing?

I don't think we'd have a reason to involve the Fëanoreans in that plotline, but we could, possibly. Finrod gets along with everyone, including Fëanoreans, Men, Sindar, Dwarves, etc.
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Perhaps it’s what they make? What have we had Nogrod make and what has Belegost made?
 
Hence the Nauglamir.

But the question is...why are they getting involved with the elves now? They weren't overly interested in establishing a relationship with the Sindar back in Season 3. So, why the Noldor, why Nargothrond, why Finrod, why now....? What's the impetus here?
 
MithLuin said:
Hence the Nauglamir.

But the question is...why are they getting involved with the elves now? They weren't overly interested in establishing a relationship with the Sindar back in Season 3. So, why the Noldor, why Nargothrond, why Finrod, why now....? What's the impetus here?
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Because there's a market for their products due to the Ban? Technically the Dwarves aren't in Thingol's jurisdiction, right?
 
Precious metals and pearls aren't included in the Ban - just jewels.

The dwarves are of course not beholden to Thingol's decree, but the Noldor (under Fingolfin's direction) are abiding by it, and the Sindar definitely are as well. So...less of a market for jewelry in Beleriand post-Ban than pre-Ban.

Unless...the Noldor would now be more willing to unload their jewel-containing jewelry in trade with the dwarves....
 
MithLuin said:
Precious metals and pearls aren't included in the Ban - just jewels.

The dwarves are of course not beholden to Thingol's decree, but the Noldor (under Fingolfin's direction) are abiding by it, and the Sindar definitely are as well. So...less of a market for jewelry in Beleriand post-Ban than pre-Ban.

Unless...the Noldor would now be more willing to unload their jewel-containing jewelry in trade with the dwarves....
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Are there any special qualities of Noldor jewels that the Dwarves would be interested in?
 
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