A first time reader's actual experience

[Anthony Lawther]

1. She does not simple give him new clothes, she clothes him like an elven prince of Valinor and then shows him off to her granddaughter.
That IS matchmaking.

2. She gives Aragorn the family jewel on behalf of Arwen before he is king - so even before he has met the condition set by Elrond.

3. Celeborn being Sindar is not yet "ready" to leave. Galadriel is tired, and she has some explaining to do towards Celebrian. Celeborn looks after the two boys still left. Celeborn's moving from Lorian to Rivendell after witnessing the fading of Lothlorien is actually a step in his getting ready to leave.

Why? She knew Luthien personally and seems to consider her marriage to Beren a success - even if there was a price to pay for it -and she saw her very own brother got himself self-confined in Mandos for the rest of his time in Arda for an "unlived" love - in the end for just a wasted oportunity which resulted in nothing.

She doesn't know Aragorn much at that point yet - so this cannot be out of her high regard for Aragorn's character.
Her behaviour needs the background of the Legendarium to be understood. It is no possible to understand it out of TLOTR alone.

1. That was nearly 30 years after they first met and while he might have looked like ‘an Elf-Lord from the Isles off the West’ he might also have simply been wearing a spare set of Celeborn’s clothes. Also, he was simply allowed the freedom of Caras Galadhon, not paraded in front of Arwen as you suggest. It’s not a clear case of matchmaking in my eyes.

2. Also not matchmaking. At this point the match has already been made.

Aegnor isn’t mentioned in TLOTR, so we don’t know anything about him without looking outside the work in question. Even so, she can’t know for a fact what the fate of Aegnor was until she returned to Valinor, so I don’t think that could have been a factor in her thinking.

I disagree that you need more than TLOTR to understand what is happening here, unless you bring in those outside factors that then demand explanation by the outside works.

 

[Flammifer]

1. She does not simple give him new clothes, she clothes him like an elven prince of Valinor and then shows him off to her granddaughter.
That IS matchmaking.

2. She gives Aragorn the family jewel on behalf of Arwen before he is king - so even before he has met the condition set by Elrond.

3. Celeborn being Sindar is not yet "ready" to leave. Galadriel is tired, and she has some explaining to do towards Celebrian. Celeborn looks after the two boys still left. Celeborn's moving from Lorian to Rivendell after witnessing the fading of Lothlorien is actually a step in his getting ready to leave.

Why? She knew Luthien personally and seems to consider her marriage to Beren a success - even if there was a price to pay for it -and she saw her very own brother got himself self-confined in Mandos for the rest of his time in Arda for an "unlived" love - in the end for just a wasted oportunity which resulted in nothing.

She doesn't know Aragorn much at that point yet - so this cannot be out of her high regard for Aragorn's character.
Her behaviour needs the background of the Legendarium to be understood. It is no possible to understand it out of TLOTR alone.

Hi Odola,

1. Galadriel dresses Aragorn up nice, but I doubt it is clothing that makes him seem like an Elf-lord. There is no evidence that she 'shows him off' to her granddaughter. He sees Arwen (I assume) under the trees, picks the flowers of gold to give her, and walks towards her. Is it the clothing that Arwen focuses on (disappointing)? Or the flowers (better)? Or him (best)? Then she beholds him and 'her choice was made'. No intervention in this scene by Galadriel is mentioned.

2. When Galadriel gives Aragorn the jewel, Aragorn and Arwen are already betrothed. The jewel is a gift of Estel, as, if Elrond's conditions are not met, the outlook is pretty bleak for everyone in Middle-earth. I do not see this as 'matchmaking'.

If Galadriel's behavior needs the background of the Legendarium to be understood, then that understanding belongs in a close reading of the Legendarium. A close reading of TLOTR leads to different evidence and different speculations.

 

[Odola]

2. Also not matchmaking. At this point the match has already been made.

How so? The condition set by Elrond has not yet been met?

She can know Aegnor's fate , as
1) this is something Finrod tells Andreth before his brother is even dead yet,
2) there was communication between Aman and ME for elves: as we are told in the Nimrodel poem about Amroth: "But from the West has come no word" - so there would be info from Aman to ME if Amroth had arrived there
3) her parents were alive in Valinor and would request info about their son's fate given that one of the other brothers who died later has already been relased
4) they had info from inside of Mandos the mentioned released brother himself
5) they would send info to their daughter
as her mother was a noble lady of the Teleri there was no problem to send a word to her daughter with the ships returning to ME

 

[Odola]

Hi Odola,

1. Galadriel dresses Aragorn up nice, but I doubt it is clothing that makes him seem like an Elf-lord. There is no evidence that she 'shows him off' to her granddaughter. He sees Arwen (I assume) under the trees, picks the flowers of gold to give her, and walks towards her. Is it the clothing that Arwen focuses on (disappointing)? Or the flowers (better)? Or him (best)? Then she beholds him and 'her choice was made'. No intervention in this scene by Galadriel is mentioned.

2. When Galadriel gives Aragorn the jewel, Aragorn and Arwen are already betrothed. The jewel is a gift of Estel, as, if Elrond's conditions are not met, the outlook is pretty bleak for everyone in Middle-earth. I do not see this as 'matchmaking'.

If Galadriel's behavior needs the background of the Legendarium to be understood, then that understanding belongs in a close reading of the Legendarium. A close reading of TLOTR leads to different evidence and different speculations.

1. The clothing is described in details, it was not just some spare outfit. What was it that changed Aragorn's appearance, you ask? The magic intervowen in the clothes as in everything the elves do.
2. They have come to a private understanding. There was no official betrothal and there couldn't be withour Elrond's consent.

 

[Flammifer]

How so? The condition set by Elrond has not yet been met?

She can know Aegnor's fate , as
1) this is something Finrod tells Andreth before his brother is even dead yet,
2) there was communication between Aman and ME for elves: as we are told in the Nimrodel poem about Amroth: "But from the West has come no word" - so there would be info from Aman to ME if Amroth had arrived there
3) her parents were alive in Valinor and would request info about their son's fate given that one of the other brothers who died later has already been relased
4) they had info from inside of Mandos the mentioned released brother himself
5) they would send info to their daughter
as her mother was a noble lady of the Teleri there was no problem to send a word to her daughter with the ships returning to ME

Hi Odola,

Did ships return to Middle-earth? Or was it a one way journey? I don't think we know? There is a clue, however in Cirdan's title, 'The Ship-wright'. If the ships came back, how many new ships would Cirdan need to make? Why would 'The Ship-wright' be his main title?

As far as we know, from TLOTR, there is no communication between The West and Middle-earth other than Dreams. We do not know, for instance, that Glorfindel has somehow come from the West to Middle-earth. 'From the West has come no word", could as well be an expression of lament that there never comes any word from the West, as an expectation that word could well come,, but has not?

 

[Flammifer]

1. The clothing is described in details, it was not just some spare outfit. What was it that changed Aragorn's appearance, you ask? The magic intervowen in the clothes as in everything the elves do.
2. They have come to a private understanding. There was no official betrothal and there couldn't be withour Elrond's consent.

A season after the encounter with clothes and flowers, Aragorn and Arwen, upon the hill of Cerin Amroth, looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, "and they plighted their troth and were glad". That seems pretty definitive.

Elrond's 'condition' is partly just a reflection of his reading of the Song. Unless Aragorn becomes King of both Gondor and Arnor, there is little hope for any in Middle-earth, and Aragorn probably won't be around to marry anyone. Of course, Elrond is also saying, "Don't get married unless we somehow win."

 

[Odola]

Hi Odola,

Did ships return to Middle-earth? Or was it a one way journey? I don't think we know?

They did return for sure, as this was long before the fall of Numenor and the ships even arrived at that island which was part of ME. And even after that - how otherwise would the Istari and Glorfindel arrive in ME even after Numenor's fall? They came on several different ships. I am not sure about the sailors, if they were allowed to set foot on land and be allowed back, but as long as they stayed on the ships and got provisions, goods and news from local people visiting their ships - either from Tol Eresea or Alqualonde, that seemed to be fine. But even if not, then Glorfindel was in Mandos himself - and given the elvish love for gossip, he knew all about it. An elf refusing reembodiment is a big deal, especially coming from the ruling house - it can be even a basis for a big court case, as far I remember... Good that elves do not have a tabloid press, because that would be front cover news for quite some time.

And I am not the first to notice that Galadriel acts as the matchmaker - I have (again ) found an old thread and allow myself to cite some other's remarks:

Galadriel - the matchmaker? [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

[Archive] Galadriel - the matchmaker? The Books

forum.barrowdowns.com

"akhtene
10-26-2002, 06:35 PM
My question is inspired by one of current threads. As I was re-reading ‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’ it suddenly got inside my skull.
It’s been agreed that Elrond wasn’t especially happy about Aragorn’s feelings towards his daughter. So Elrond set the task, and Aragorn left for war against Sauron. Arwen’s feelings at that point are not mentioned or considered.
But then 30 years later Aragorn appeared in Lorien, when Arwen was also dwelling there.
"Galadriel bade him to cast aside his wayworn rainment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an elf-lord from the Isles of the West.And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him againafter their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.
Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlorien… …and they plighted their troth and were glad"
Thus Galadriel seems to be pushing them towards each other, tempting to disobey Elrond’s will. OK, she doesn’t actually DO or SAY anything blame-worthy (just showing hospitality) but didn’t she see what was going on? Don’t tell me that smilies/wink.gif. What was her aim then?"
It’s hardly just a petty wish to spite her son-in-law.
Patronizing young people in love – but she doesn’t look any bit romantic herself.
Well, of course she cared for M-E and might be willing to spur Aragorn in his fight for the kingdom and restoration of peace, but to use your own grand-daughter as a bait (OK, let it be ‘prize’ – that gives me creeps…"

"Diamond18
10-26-2002, 09:30 PM
Well, I don't know...Galadriel seems so perceptive and wise that I find it hard to believe that anything would escape her notice. But then again, we don't know what Arwen's thoughts were on the matter at that point, so we don't know what there was for Galadriel to perceive!

But even if Arwen thought herself indifferent, Galadriel's foresight could have been great enough to see that it was Aragorn and Arwen's fate to fall in love and marry, and that it was Arwen's fate to become a mortal and die. As we see by the way Galadriel turns down the Ring and accepts "dimishing" as a result, Galadriel was not one to stand in the way of fate.

I can see her acting in that manner because she knew it had to be done. It was the will of Ilúvatar. Now, it might seem a bit shallow for Arwen to fall in love simply because he looked good...but this is a short tale in an appendix and not a fully developed romance novel! I'm sure a lot of it had to do with fate and the will of Ilúvatar, and not just a bath, a shave and some new clothes. Those were simply icing on the cake.

It does make sense to say that Galadriel was just being hospitable, but the way Tolkien writes it gives it more importance, in my mind. He didn't say that Aragorn got new clothes from the Elves of Lothlórien, he mentioned Galadriel specifically as giving them to him."

"hobbitlass
10-26-2002, 10:22 PM
My first impression, when I read the topic starter, is that Galadriel is just being female. On a whole, and with mortality not considered, I find mothers and grandmothers to be more sympethetic and supportive of their (grand)daughter's love than a father would."

"Helkasir
10-27-2002, 02:38 PM
hhmm.. well, she is old, and probably bored. Maybe she's taken up a hobby. not that much to do in a day with peaceful place like lorien."

So it is generally visible that she is actively - even if with all the necessary subtlety - bringing them together.

And it is not clear from TLOTR at all, why.

 

[Flammifer]

They did return for sure, as this was long before the fall of Numenor and the ships even arrived at that island which was part of ME. And even after that - how otherwise would the Istari and Glorfindel arrive in ME even after Numenor's fall? They came on several different ships. I am not sure about the sailors, if they were allowed to set foot on land and be allowed back, but as long as they stayed on the ships and got provisions, goods and news from local people visiting their ships - either from Tol Eresea or Alqualonde, that seemed to be fine. But even if not, then Glorfindel was in Mandos himself - and given the elvish love for gossip, he knew all about it. An elf refusing reembodiment is a big deal, especially coming from the ruling house - it can be even a basis for a big court case, as far I remember... Good that elves do not have a tabloid press, because that would be front cover news for quite some time.

Yes, ships could probably go and come back in the days of Numenor. But, that was before the Seas were bent, and the world was made round. Could they still after that?

Do we know when Glorfindel arrived in Middle-earth for the third time (I guess - 1) born in Middle-earth (or was he born in Valinor?); 2) returned to Middle-earth with the second wave of the Noldor; 3) returned again to Middle-earth after spending time in Mandos' Halls subsequent to death by Balrog.) (In the Legendarium that is - in TLOTR we have no clue that he returned again to Middle-earth, and can only assume that he has been there ever since the return of the Noldor.)?

Glorfindel might have returned again before the Seas were bent?

We guess from Appendix B that Gandalf arrived in Middle-earth at the Grey Havens as that is where Cirdan gave him one of the Elvish Rings which might indicate that he came by ship. However, even that is uncertain, as all that is said is, "(Cirdan) welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens," which might just mean that as Mithrandir toured the most important points in Middle-earth, to meet the most important people (Cirdan perhaps being the most important, as he, "saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth") he stopped by the Havens, having arrived in Middle-earth by some more mysterious means than by ship (Eagle perhaps?). Less likely, but not impossible?

I don't think we know for sure (from TLOTR alone) whether ships could come back from the West after the Seas were bent?

 

[Odola]

Yes, ships could probably go and come back in the days of Numenor. But, that was before the Seas were bent, and the world was made round. Could they still after that?

Do we know when Glorfindel arrived in Middle-earth for the second time (in the Legendarium that is - in TLOTR we have no clue that he returned again to Middle-earth, and can only assume that he has been there ever since the first return of the Noldor.)?

Glorfindel might have returned again before the Seas were bent?

We guess from Appendix B that Gandalf arrived in Middle-earth at the Grey Havens as that is where Cirdan gave him one of the Elvish Rings which might indicate that he came by ship. However, even that is uncertain, as all that is said is, "(Cirdan) welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens," which might just mean that as Mithrandir toured the most important points in Middle-earth, to meet the most important people (Cirdan perhaps being the most important, as he, "saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth") he stopped by the Havens, having arrived in Middle-earth by some more mysterious means than by ship (Eagle perhaps?). Less likely, but not impossible?

I don't think we know for sure (from TLOTR alone) whether ships could come back from the West after the Seas were bent?

Has no real relevance for the question at hand as both Finrod and Aegnor died in the First Age and Finrod was reembodied soon enough for it to be generally known in ME - as the Second Age was still to be over 3400 year long. And Glorfindel and the Blue Wizards arrived in ME in the SA still, before Numenor's Fall. {So Glorfindel could have brought a horse with him, even if Asfaloth could not have been living this long to have been that horse.)

So no reason to think Galadriel at all ignorant about the tragedy that has befallen her own family.
Edit:
As far I know Glorfindel has been born in Valinor. After his death he spent just a few years in Mandos and was then released. Then he lived ca 1000 years in Valinor and arrived in ME 1600 S.A. Fail of Numenor was S.A. 3319.

 

[Forodan]

As far as we know, from TLOTR, there is no communication between The West and Middle-earth other than Dreams. We do not know, for instance, that Glorfindel has somehow come from the West to Middle-earth. 'From the West has come no word", could as well be an expression of lament that there never comes any word from the West, as an expectation that word could well come,, but has not?

Yes, this is a critical qualification. We don't have information within the most popular work, LOTR, about how any communication might be occurring. But in Unfinished Tales there is a wealth of new information, including the discussion of the Palantiri. One of them is stated to be kept in the Tower Hills, and to be linked only to another stone still kept in the "Tower of Avallonë upon Eressëa". This is the link to the 'Uttermost' or 'True' West that Tolkien was probably thinking of for any news after the fall of Numenor.

 

[Odola]

@Flammifer
"But from the West has come no word,
And on the Hither Shore
No tidings Elven-folk have heard
Of Amroth evermore."

= we heard neither from the West nor from here (ME) about Amroth - both as likely as the other to have happened had he managed to come out the sea on either of the two shores...

 

[Flammifer]

Has no real relevance for the question at hand as both Finrod and Aegnor died in the First Age and Finrod was reembodied soon enough for it to be generally known in ME - as the Second Age was still to be over 3400 year long. And Glorfindel and the Blue Wizards arrived in ME in the SA still, before Numenor's Fall. {So Glorfindel could have brought a horse with him, even if Asfaloth could not have been living this long to have been that horse.)

So no reason to think Galadriel at all ignorant about the tragedy that has befallen her own family.
Edot:
As far I know Glorfindel has been born in Valinor. After his death he spent just a few years in Mandos and was then released. Then he lived ca 1000 years in Valinor and arrived in ME 1600 S.A. Fail of Numenor was S.A. 3319.

Hi Odola,

I never thought that Galadriel was (or was not) ignorant of the tragedy in her own family. Because, when close reading TLOTR Finrod and Aegnor do not exist. Glorfindel is just a high elf in Rivendell. None of this has any relevance to the Galadriel we know in TLOTR. Because it is not in TLOTR.

 

[Odola]

Hi Odola,

I never thought that Galadriel was (or was not) ignorant of the tragedy in her own family. Because, when close reading TLOTR Finrod and Aegnor do not exist. Glorfindel is just a high elf in Rivendell. None of this has any relevance to the Galadriel we know in TLOTR. Because it is not in TLOTR.

As such her "shipping" Aragorn and Arwen seems just a cruel fancy of an old bored grandmother, disloyal both to her own daughter and to her son-in-law. And it does her character terribly wrong.
And, as far know, Finrod existed before Galadriel was ever invented? His ring does exist in LOTR, and that couldn't have just come from nobody?

 

[Flammifer]

It is the Ring of Barahir. As far as I know, Finrod is never mentioned in TLOTR.

You lost me with your comment on 'shipping' Aragorn and Arwen. I don't know what that means?

I think that both Galadriel and Elrond intuit that if the War is somehow won, then Aragorn and Arwen's wedding is doomed to be. As the early beginning of the relationship between Elves and Men was marked by a marriage across the twain, the sundering of the relationship will follow a similar pattern. They may not be overjoyed about this (especially about it involving Arwen. But they have Estel, that one day Arda will be re- born, all will be as it should have been, and that the parting from Arwen will be removed.

 

[Forodan]

Finrod was originally the head of a 'house', it was the earlier name of Finarfin. And the character now named Finrod was named "Inglor", meaning "Gildor Inglorion of the house of Finrod" was supposed to be his son. There were a few revisions that didn't get fixed in the published LOTR.

 

[Odola]

It is the Ring of Barahir. As far as I know, Finrod is never mentioned in TLOTR.

You lost me with your comment on 'shipping' Aragorn and Arwen. I don't know what that means?

I think that both Galadriel and Elrond intuit that if the War is somehow won, then Aragorn and Arwen's wedding is doomed to be.

Shipping (fandom) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Elrond reservation are more imho about Arwen being ill-fitted for the job at hand. He seems to hope to the very end she will reconsider, because he knows that she would not be happy in the end. It is fun to be a queen to an extend, but in the end she is not Luthien, she isn't really interested in the fate of men per se.

 

[Odola]

Finrod was originally the head of a 'house', it was the earlier name of Finarfin. And the character now named Finrod was named "Inglor", meaning "Gildor Inglorion of the house of Finrod" was supposed to be his son. There were a few revisions that didn't get fixed in the published LOTR.

Yeah, thanks, I thought so, but could not remember, where the name of Finrod fall in LOTR. Once again Gildor's is a savior. It doesn't get fixed as it was reinterpreted as Gildor being of the household of Finrod. But doesn't matter - Finrod officially IS in LOTR.

 

[Flammifer]

OK Finrod's name is mentioned (as an obscure head of an unknown 'house'), but Finrod as anything but a word, does not exist in TLOTR.

I like your comment that Arwen is not Luthien. It is a very interesting question as to how like and un-like Arwen and Luthien were. I agree that we have no evidence that Arwen is really interested in the fate of Men. But, likewise, I don't think we have any evidence that Luthien was interested in the fate of Men.

I would be interested in your thoughts on compare and contrast Luthien and Arwen. The compare is obvious, and I have long focused only on that, but, the contrast is not something I have given much thought to. I agree that Luthien seems much more ready (not sure about happy) to leave Arda behind than Arwen (though we don't get nearly as in depth a look at her feelings). How do we get such an in-depth account of Arwen's words at the death of Aragorn? I guess it must be that she gave an account to either Eldarion and/or her daughters? Luthien and Beren seem to have departed Arda together, rather than one at a time as Aragorn and Arwen did. I wonder what effect that might have had?

 

[Odola]

OK Finrod's name is mentioned (as an obscure head of an unknown 'house'), but Finrod as anything but a word, does not exist in TLOTR.

I like your comment that Arwen is not Luthien. It is a very interesting question as to how like and un-like Arwen and Luthien were. I agree that we have no evidence that Arwen is really interested in the fate of Men. But, likewise, I don't think we have any evidence that Luthien was interested in the fate of Men.

I would be interested in your thoughts on compare and contrast Luthien and Arwen. The compare is obvious, and I have long focused only on that, but, the contrast is not something I have given much thought to. I agree that Luthien seems much more ready (not sure about happy) to leave Arda behind than Arwen (though we don't get nearly as in depth a look at her feelings). How do we get such an in-depth account of Arwen's words at the death of Aragorn? I guess it must be that she gave an account to either Eldarion and/or her daughters? Luthien and Beren seem to have departed Arda together, rather than one at a time as Aragorn and Arwen did. I wonder what effect that might have had?

Luthien is half-Ainur. Her soul might be Elvish but her nature is mixed. As such she is just returning to Her others oryginał homeland. Where she is free to roam The heavens with the heavenly hosts kicking some demons' behinds without having to manager to a over-possesive Thingol.
Arwen is just a prety-faced girl on noble descent who has been oversheltered by her family after her mother's incident but who was fine with that. She does emboidery well, beyond that she się show little activity. Boeing admirał by a handsoome Ranger is fine, bein a Queen also (even if I do believe real queenly duties might have to be delegated to some other noble ladies, cannot imagine Arwen actually doing any "work". Most human stuff from politics to caring for refugees would simply digust her. Art, music those are her fields, but still, does she even know how to be a patron for artists?

 

[Flammifer]

Interesting take Odola,

But is there any evidence? Will Luthien roam the heavens with those Ainur who never descended into Arda, or will she share the mysterious fate of Men (which might or might not be to roam the heavens with the Ainur)?

Was Arwen oversheltered after her mother's incident? She seems to have traipsed back and forth between Rivendell and Lothlorien, which was the journey which doomed her mother.

I do agree that the best alteration of movie LOTR from the book was to give Arwen a more active role (and get rid of Glorfindel, who plays no part necessary to himself in the book, except to give Gandalf the opportunity for his statement about those who have been to the Blessed Realm being able to have great power against both the Seen and Un-Seen (though, now that I think about it, that was said of the Elven-wise of Rivendell, not specifically of Glorfindel, so, we could easily get rid of him and replace him in the Flight to the Ford with Arwen, like the movie did)).

However, absence of evidence is not evidence. Just because we don't see Arwen being active does not mean that she is not?

It is true that Arwen is a symbol, more than a rounded character all through TLOTR, and we don't really get much about her, or from her perspective until the Appendix.