Archaic words

MithLuin

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One way to remind the audience that these events are taking place a long time ago is to choose our vocabulary carefully.

We will need to avoid certain words and turns of phrase as being too modern or anachronistic. But that is often a nuanced determination, rather than a straightforward rule.

Words that are too 'modern' will be jarring and out of place, sounding like the speaker is from our own culture rather than from an elven, dwarven, or Edain background. If a word rarely appeared in English prior to 1950, then likely it is too modern for the dialogue in Silm Film. But sometimes even an older word may sound or seem too modern. For instance, "nervous system" was first used in the 1730's, and yet when Gimli says that his axe is embedded in an orc's nervous system in Peter Jackson's The Two Towers, it seems anachronistic. Why would a dwarf know that the brain is connected to the rest of the body by nerves, and that it can cause the body to twitch after death? That does not feel like a body of knowledge that these characters would have (even though they very well could). Likewise, "menu" (in the sense of detailed list) has been in use since the 1650's, but "Looks like meat's back on the menu!" makes it seem as though orcs are familiar with the experience of ordering food in a restaurant....which seems ridiculous. Tolkien used deliberately anachronistic language in the Shire scenes (such as comparing fireworks to the sound of a locamotive in the description), but while we might think that the "eavesdropping" and "I wasn't dropping no eaves" exchange sounds anachronistic, the word "eavesdropping" goes back to the 1640's, and "eaves" itself is from Middle English and was in use by the 12th century. So, "too modern" is rather subjective at the end of the day. The best way to avoid this will be to rely on multiple proofreaders to catch words and phrases that sound 'off' and out of place in Middle-earth to them.

Another concern is to make the dialogue sound "Tolkienian". Does this sound like something one of J.R.R. Tolkien's character's would say? Does it seem plausible that he could have written this? This is, of course, extremely challenging. While there are a few "guidelines" concerning what words Tolkien would use in a given context, they're not hard and fast rules, and simply following them won't get the job done. Writing is an art, and Tolkien was a master artist in this medium. So, how to go about imitating him? We can't rely simply on a list of what to avoid, but rather must have some positive ideas of what to include as well.

  1. Study the corpus. Sure, the dialogue of the published Silmarillion is limited. But it's a starting point. And luckily, we have access to the History of Middle-earth, and thus have much more substantial dialogue samples to use as the basis of our own writing. The "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" is 24 pages long, and almost all dialogue. The "Statute of Finwë and Míriel" gives dialogue to many of the Valar. Unfinished Tales contains a letter written by High King Gil-galad to the King of Númenor. Etc. So we do have samples to base our writing on, and needn't invent everything from wholecloth.

  2. Give preference to words that were in use in the English language prior to the year 1200. These are some of the oldest words in English, and will sound foundational. Here's a helpful list of examples compiled by a dictionary:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/time-traveler/before 12th century

    Once discarding the references to classical and religious topics, we are left with a sizable list of words to work with. Not sizeable enough to use exclusively, but certainly words that can be given a preference in our dialogue. There are also words on this list that a modern English speaker (or reader) has likely never encountered before. These are words that have gone out of modern usage. We have to be careful with those. Would Tolkien use them? For sure. Anyone who has read The Book of Lost Tales knows that Tolkien did not shy away from reintroducing old words to his writing. Difficult to get through that without help from a glossary, like having to read Shakespearean dialogue with footnotes. What's a 'bodkin'? Where would you find a 'fane'? One is from Hamlet, the other from Tolkien. But Lord of the Rings style writing does not include nearly so many of those. So, my advice would be to use such words very sparingly, and only if one could expect a listener in the audience to figure it out from context. Presumably, someone could deduce that 'fenny' means 'boggy,' even if they'd never heard that before, and we are certainly using the name the 'Fens of Serech'. Whereas the meaning of 'fere' would likely be opaque, not clearly indicating a companion or spouse, and should probably be avoided.
    1. University of Glasgow's Historical Thesaurus may come in handy if you're hunting for a slightly older, but still understandable version of a word:

      https://ht.ac.uk/

      So, as an example, 'outerwear' is introduced in 1928, so too modern for this project. Sounds like your characters are shopping at REI, not hanging out in Middle-earth. Naturally, you might think to say 'robes' when talking about generic long garments from the past, but this gives you other options, such as 'outer clothing' (1891), not a bad choice for hobbits. And then there's 'overclothing' (1425) for the older cultures. So, you can still get that concept of 'outerwear' without having to specify coat or cloak or whatever, but you can subtly avoid using the word 'outerwear,' and don't have to resort to something exotic like 'out-array' (1647).
      Or a word like 'telepathy' (1882) might sound too technical and hence 'modern' to the audience as a translation of "osanwe-kenta", but there are a slew of other words that date from the exact same time period that might be more palatable, such as 'mind-reading' or 'thought-transfer'. 'Psychognosis' (1891) would make it worse, not better! Similarly, 'seer' (1661) is a much better choice than the nineteenth century 'clairvoyant' or 'medium' or 'second-sighter' (I did not make that up, promise!)

  3. Give a strong preference to words that have their root origin in Old English/German, not French/Latin. Obviously, Tolkien's writing is not completely free from words of French/Latin origin, but he felt very strongly that the Norman Conquest of 1066 was a tragedy that destroyed the English language. So, whenever possible, he expressed a strong preference for these words.

    Should a character be shy? Or timid?
    Should a town be sleepy? Or complacent?
    Should the enemy assault or beset someone?
    Should the task be daunting or direful?

    So when do we get to use the French/Latin origin words? When the meaning we want is too nuanced and must be differentiated. Or when the Old English variant is too obscure or awkward, and will obscure the meaning entirely. From the dictionary again:
    Attack, assail, assault, molest all mean to set upon someone forcibly, with hostile or violent intent. Attack is the most general word and applies to a beginning of hostilities, especially those definitely planned: to attack from ambush. Assail implies vehement, sudden, and sometimes repeated attack: to assail with weapons or with gossip. Assault almost always implies bodily violence: to assault with intent to kill. To molest is to harass, to threaten, or to assault: He was safe, and where no one could molest him.

    With the exception of "threaten", all of these words are of French (and ultimately Latin) origin. Sometimes, we will need to specify. Tolkien is the author of "Morgoth was not unassailable", so it's not like he limited himself to 'threaten' and 'beset', and was willing to use attack, assail, assault, harass as needed. And when is the last time you heard someone say "direful"? Whereas "daunting" will be clear and understood.


    How are you to know whether a word is of French/Latin origin or Old English/German origin? If you aren't sure, you can look up its etymology in an online dictionary. This is clearly WAY too much work to do for every word choice while writing! But if something about a line isn't working, you can always look up one of the words, and, if it is from the French, look for a synonym that is from the Old English - then see if swapping them helps.

  4. Give preference to alliteration. Tolkien's poetry is full of alliteration, and use of similar sounds ("w" and "y" for instance, do not alliterate, but are related, in the same way that "n" and "m" are similar.) If you can get two to three leading consonants in a line to alliterate, your writing may sound more like it was written by Tolkien. No one can do this all the time, but doing more of it will help with the style associated with word choice.

  5. Avoid modern usages, regional slang, or anything that sets the dialogue firmly in a time/location in the modern world.

    The clearest example of this is the greeting "hello" - this became common or popular after the invention of the telephone. Granted, it's from the earlier "hallo" which means something like "ahoy there!" so it's not strictly modern in origin. But in usage? Too modern. "Hullo, what's this?" as an exclamation of surprise is fine for hobbits. But "Hello, how are you?" has no place in our dialogue. We need greetings that are appropriate for these cultures. "Lo!" used to call attention or to express wonder or surprise would be a perfectly acceptable interjection. OK/okay is American slang from 1839-40, and there is no reason for it to exist in Middle-earth. No character in Silm Film is going to say "all y'all" or "yinz". They'll say "ye". Etc.
 
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Regarding looking up etymology (for the purposes of distinguishing Latinate/Germanic origins), sometimes just putting "[word] definition" into Google can get you that, after expanding the info panel (eg here's the result for fane). Even better is Wiktionary, where you can very often skip backwards via links, and find the older words (even the actual Old English definition and citations), sometimes back to PIE (eg here is fane again). Not as good as OED for completeness, but at least more accessible.

And regarding 'ye' and 'thou' and other early Modern English pronouns, this table on Wikipedia is useful. Some of the following info on verbs might also be useful, if one wanted to make a character sound just that little bit more archaic (say an Elf talking with a human), or show a distinction in register (eg -eth and -est verb endings, or using the auxiliary verb 'is' in place of contemporary 'has'—like 'is come' rather than 'has come').
 
Regarding looking up etymology (for the purposes of distinguishing Latinate/Germanic origins), sometimes just putting "[word] definition" into Google can get you that, after expanding the info panel (eg here's the result for fane). Even better is Wiktionary, where you can very often skip backwards via links, and find the older words (even the actual Old English definition and citations), sometimes back to PIE (eg here is fane again). Not as good as OED for completeness, but at least more accessible.

And regarding 'ye' and 'thou' and other early Modern English pronouns, this table on Wikipedia is useful. Some of the following info on verbs might also be useful, if one wanted to make a character sound just that little bit more archaic (say an Elf talking with a human), or show a distinction in register (eg -eth and -est verb endings, or using the auxiliary verb 'is' in place of contemporary 'has'—like 'is come' rather than 'has come').
I think we may need to revisit the Elizabethan pronoun issue. My understanding was that we were initially going to be using them with the Valar, but it would drop off for the other characters as it does in the published text of the Silmarillion. It seems, however, that we are continuing to use them for not only Elvish, but human characters. I'd just like to reopen the subject for discussion so that we can get this consistent. Obviously, I have feelings on the matter. I have concerns that overuse of the archaic forms of pronouns and verb tense will be off-putting to our imaginary audience.
 
It is true that we do have a Valar-only grammar choice in the published Silmarillion to use when crafting their dialogue. That is the -eth verb ending.

Examples:
Ulmo to Turgon​
"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea."​
Manwë to Yavanna​
"O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: ..."​
Yavanna to Aulë​
"Eru is merciful. Now I see that thy heart rejoiceth, as indeed it may; for thou hast received not only forgiveness but bounty."​
Námo/Mandos to the rebellious Noldor​
"On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also."​
With the exception of Ilúvatar, no other character in the Silmarillion uses this grammatical construction (as far as I know).

I recognize that we have had disagreements about this in the past, but I am firmly of the opinion that this archaic grammar construction ought to be reserved for the Valar and for Ilúvatar in our writing, as that was the distinction that Tolkien gave to it in his writing.

In modern English, the th in -eth has shifted to s, ie "the true hope of the Noldor lies in the West and comes from the Sea," or "Eru has spoken." That transition happened around the time of Shakespeare, so that one may see both in his writing, and sometimes even both in the same line. All of our human and elven characters should be using the 's' verb ending for third person singular indicative.
 
Indeed, especially when describing causes of death and illnesses it is important to remember the mechanism of infection, the germ theory of infectious diseases (~1870) was not known that far back...

But modern phases still could work in some contexts - e.g. "anemia" - a very common problem - also quite common in ancient times - was not understood back then, still the modern alternative name of "tired blood" could still work in a Tolkienian setting, even if the more properly archaic words seem to be "wanness" or "pallor".
 
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Now...as for "you" (vs thou/thee/ye)
I agree that we ought to discuss this as well, so we can be consistent about our usage of it.


"You" is used for everything today - singular, plural, formal, informal, nominative, objective. Most languages have more distinctions than that, and colloquial usage of English often introduces ways to differentiate between you (singular) and you (plural), at the very least (ie, y'all, yinz, yous guys, etc.)

The distinction of formal and informal "you" has been lost in English, but is well preserved in French. One uses "tu" or "vous" in different contexts, and if one wishes to switch from the formal, we're strangers, respectful "vous" to the more familiar, we're friends "tu", one must have a conversation about that - there's vocabulary for identifying which one you're using (switch between vouvoiement and tutoiement.) It should be pointed out that an adult will always use "tu" for a child, not "vous." And that in the case of you plural, you will use "vous."

So, in the beginning, there is no distinction between formal and informal. There were simply different words for singular and plural. To use that chart from Wikipedia, it would look like this:

1719516191462.png

So, if you are speaking to one person, and you wanted to refer to them in 2nd person, you would say "thou" if it's the subject of the sentence and "thee" if it's the object of the sentence. If you're speaking to multiple people, you say "ye" for the subject of the sentance and "you" for the object. So, "you" only appears when there's more than one person, and when objective case is needed.

The correct use of "you" in this very archaic speech pattern, as demonstrated by Námo:
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains."​

The Valar always follow these rules. So, one can say that they do not distinguish between formal and informal, or that they refer to everyone informally/familiarly. Either interpretation fits their dialogue. This means that whenever they address one person, there will be a lot of thee's and thou's and thy's going on. As demonstrated by Manwë:
"But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds?"​

So, what is happening in Early Modern English that changes this?

Now, a distinction is drawn based on how well you know this person. Is it your brother/sister/friend? Is it your lord? Is it your grandfather? A stranger you just met? Etc. If one is being informal or familiar, then one still distinguises between thou/thee for the singular and ye/you for the plural. But now, if one is being formal, one uses only the plural form (you) regardless of whether it is one or more people.

1719516138505.png

Formal speech will sound more modern; informal speech will sound more archaic.

Here's Thingol's official diplomatic message to the Noldor:
"Thus shall you speak for me to those that sent you. In Hithlum the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of Dorthonion, and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild; but elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, sill less ousted from their homes. Beware therefore how you princes of the West bear yourselves; for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word. Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests, or who seek me in great need."​

Whereas here is something Finrod says to Andreth in the Athrabeth:
"Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee, thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return."​

Most of the dialogue of the Elves and Men in Beleriand in the published Silmarillion uses the formal "you." In the Athrabeth, we see that Finrod and Andreth begin by using the formal you when discussing history and philosophy, but when the conversation shifts to more personal matters, surrounding her relationship with Aegnor, Finrod shifts to the familiar thou/thee. Andreth at first rejects his use of that, saying "But say not thou to me, for so he once did!"

The Athrabeth is a far more substantial corpus of dialogue than the entire published Silmarillion, and we were urged during Season 4-5 to use it as a guide in crafting our dialogue.

So...when should characters use thee/thou/thy in Silm Film? And when should they stick to you?

It is not a matter of Elves vs Humans. It is an issue of familiarity. In Valinor, most characters should address one another familiarly. Lots of thee's and thou's. In the Third Age, almost no one uses thee/thou, and everyone says "you". So in Beleriand, we need to differentiate situations that are appropriate to be familiar, and situations where characters should be more formal. The "thee/thou" thing should be gradually phasing out.

Who does not say "thee/thou/thy"?
- Characters who have just met
- Characters conducting formal business (court, diplomacy, military, etc)
- Characters who are enemies
- Characters who are addressing a lord or elder


Who might use "thee/thou/thy"?
- Parents speaking to children
- Brothers and sisters speaking to one another in a private context
- Spouses having a private conversation
- Good friends speaking familiarly/privately


Using the Athrabeth as a guide, it is clear that Aegnor and Andreth (who were lovers) addressed one another with thee/thou. Finrod and Andreth, who have met but are not friends, use "you" for their philosophical discourse. And then Finrod uses "thee/thou" to speak to Andreth about her relationship with Aegnor, more or less accepting her as a sister-in-law, but Andreth does not reciprocate this usage.

So, ideally, we should be using this distinction to help tell our story by saying something about the relationship of the characters and the context of their speech to one another. Whether or not they say "thou" or "you" should signal to the listener what type of conversation we are listening to.
 
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well, as "thou" is very much still an active pronoun in most Indo-European languages except for English, it does not present a big problem to many of us here, we would just translate the given sentence into our own languages and know then where to put the respective thou, thee, thy, thine, thyself...

But a similar atter is informal adress via third person as in "Does the noble lady need anything else"?" ,"Does the king wish me to fetch it?" this is done to stress distance between persons of different rank. Do we employ it and if, then how?
 
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The Season 7 Episode 2 script is almost entirely quiet moments of conversation. So, lots of examples of you/thou/thee in it.

Galadriel and Treebeard have just met, so they exclusively use "you". I think this choice is clear cut.

Maedhros is speaking privately to his brothers, so his use of thee / thou fits. However, should his brothers address him back with thee/thou, or should they use "you" in deference to his role as their leader?

When Huor, Handir, and Húrin talk amongst themselves, they should use thee/thou. Likewise, when Galdor and Hareth address them as their long lost sons, it should be with thee/thou. How should the adult sons address their parents though? Currently, they are using thee/thou except for one instance where Húrin speaks to Galdor as his lord, not his father.

How ought Emeldir and Morwen to address one another in private conversation? There is a clear age gap, and a mentor/pupil relationship. But they are very close.
 
Now...as for "you" (vs thou/thee/ye)

here also valuable info how it was used" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T–V_distinction

[Early Modern English usage:]

V (you) would normally be used
by people of lower social status to those above them
by the upper classes when talking to each other, even if they were closely related
as a sign of a change (contrasting with thou) in the emotional temperature of an interaction

T (thou) would normally be used
by people of higher social status to those below them
by the lower classes when talking to each other
in addressing God or Jesus
in talking to ghosts, witches, and other supernatural beings
in an imaginary address to someone who was absent
as a sign of a change (contrasting with you) in the emotional temperature of an interaction

Language T verb V verb T nounV noun
English to thou (referring to historical usage)to you (referring to historical usage)thouingyouing


Unequal powerEqual power
EmperorFatherHigh-class friendLow-class friend
T↓ ↑VT↓ ↑V↓↑VT↓↑
SubjectSonHigh-class friendLow-class friend

Low-class friend = also usually minors/children below the "age of reason" among themselves or noble children towards low-class servants...
 
The Season 7 Episode 2 script is almost entirely quiet moments of conversation. So, lots of examples of you/thou/thee in it.

Galadriel and Treebeard have just met, so they exclusively use "you". I think this choice is clear cut.

Maedhros is speaking privately to his brothers, so his use of thee / thou fits. However, should his brothers address him back with thee/thou, or should they use "you" in deference to his role as their leader?

When Huor, Handir, and Húrin talk amongst themselves, they should use thee/thou. Likewise, when Galdor and Hareth address them as their long lost sons, it should be with thee/thou. How should the adult sons address their parents though? Currently, they are using thee/thou except for one instance where Húrin speaks to Galdor as his lord, not his father.

How ought Emeldir and Morwen to address one another in private conversation? There is a clear age gap, and a mentor/pupil relationship. But they are very close.

Noble parents of adult noble children should be usually addressed by their noble children as "you" in public as a sign of respect, and "thou" in intimate moments, or "thou" when they become senile and dependent on their adult children - still it might be socially expected that a noble parent to be "youed" in public untill his/her demise as a public display of filial piety, even if said parent is actually senile...

A father who abdicated might address his now ruling son as "you" publicly o show he accept his out-ranking him... Same among ruling and not ruling brothers... A mother would probably address any of her children almost always as "thou" except for when the child very, very much outranks her - e.g. she was a slave and her own rank was not elevated by the marriage/union.

A small child would address anybody who is only one person with "thou" and this would be o.k. as long as it is "below the age of reason" - same with a mentally impaired person who does not get rank or seniority distinctions - that one would be allowed to address anybody singular as "thou" without being reprimanded.
Also foreigners not really familiar with the internal social structure and semi-fluent in a given language would usually be tolerated to use "thou" for singular and you for plural until they get acculturated enough to be expected to "get it".

"Thou" might be used among people who usually "you" each other in public in stressful, urgent situations, when calling somebody back "to his/her senses", giving him/her a immediate warning, blessing him/her from the deathbed, addressing him/her in a cultic setting, when livid, or as a sign of utter contempt - e.g. in all situation when courtesy rules and ranks distinctions are temporally suspended or permanently broken. So when somebody is exiled/outlawed s/he would usually be "thoued" by everybody from that moment on until his/her honour is restored.

Also one would not "you" a singular entity which has no rank, so things, animals, ideas would usually be "thoued" if in singular - "oh thou, my darkest night!" vs. "oh you, the many nights of darkness!".
 
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But a similar atter is informal adress via third person as in "Does the noble lady need anything else"?" ,"Does the king wish me to fetch it?" this is done to stress distance between persons of different rank. Do we employ it and if, then how?
here we have one example:" "Suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and he spoke softly. 'My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?" Such a "third-person address" serves to denote the perceived distance in social standing - here it serves to show Faramir's reverence for Aragorn and an acknowledgement of his authoritative superiority - which in the context is a very "political" statement.
 
"Thou" might be used among people who usually "you" each other in public in stressful, urgent situations, when calling somebody back "to his/her senses", giving him/her a immediate warning, blessing him/her from the deathbed, addressing him/her in a cultic setting, when livid, or as a sign of utter contempt - e.g. in all situation when courtesy rules and ranks distinctions are temporally suspended or permanently broken. So when somebody is exiled/outlawed s/he would usually be "thoued" by everybody from that moment on until his/her honour is restored.
here Aragorn "thous" Eowyn even if he had mostly "youed" here before: "Then Éowyn looked in the eyes of Aragorn, and she said: ‘Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!' And he answered: ‘I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss.'"

This could result either from him treating her now as a King his subject, or/and because granting a blessing is a "semi-cultic" action.

Also Eowyn usually "yous"her uncle, but in the cultic action she "thous" him publickly:

"The king now rose, and at once Éowyn came forward bearing wine. “Ferthu Théoden hál!” she said. “Receive now this cup and drink in happy hour. Health be with thee at thy going and coming!” " She is acting as a blessing giver in an ancient ritual - this overrides for the moment the rules of courtesy as it invokes a reality predating mundane rank distinctions. Even a king is a "subject" in context of the ritual.
 
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One word of caution - the usage of thee/thou is much reduced in Lord of the Rings. It appears in places (such as the ones you've shown examples of), but is rare. Still, it is used by humans of Rohan and Gondor, not simply elves or other ancient beings, so that is worth keeping in mind.

It should be much more common in First Age Beleriand in Silm Film. Still 'more common' doesn't mean 'really common', so figuring out which instances call for it is going to take some nuance. It should be 'really common' in Valinor (ie, Seasons 1 and 2).

Part of what is at issue is that most of the dialogue that is recorded in the published Silmarillion is 'public' dialogue - official statements being made in front of other witnesses. Whereas many of the conversations we write are private, between just a few characters.

But, I think Nick has a desire to reduce this usage, and not have entire scripts written with characters consistently using thee/thou, and the accompanying verb conjugations that come with it. So, making more of a distinction with lords, where no one who is ruled by them uses 'thee/thou' when speaking to them, even privately, would probably help cut back on some instances. And being mindful of conversations happening in public, with witnesses, to steer them towards 'you' would be good. Still, I'll wait for him to weight in to see if that's what he had in mind or not.
 
But, I think Nick has a desire to reduce this usage, and not have entire scripts written with characters consistently using thee/thou, and the accompanying verb conjugations that come with it. So, making more of a distinction with lords, where no one who is ruled by them uses 'thee/thou' when speaking to them, even privately, would probably help cut back on some instances. And being mindful of conversations happening in public, with witnesses, to steer them towards 'you' would be good. Still, I'll wait for him to weight in to see if that's what he had in mind or not.
Lords among themselves might "you" each other as a sign of respect and a courtesy - while Aragorn "thous" Eowyn as king he keeps "youing" Eomer who is then is a fellow king. But no way a parent would "you" a minor child which is not yet of age/ age of reason. A servant might, a parent or grandparent or another noble adult of equal (or higher) standing than the child's parents - for sure would not. So any minor child should be theoretically "thoued" by all except for slaves and very clearly lower standing persons. A not-yet walking baby who is still being carried around would most often be "thoued" by virtually everbody.

If a persons status in not clear/ borderline, a courtious and carefull person would "you" him/her*, a boastfull proud person would chose to "thou" her/him. E.g. Morwen as a haughty person would be probably rather prone to "thou" people, even those "almost equal" or actually equal in rank to her. Also the Easterlings' lords would not "you" their single slaves. Those slaves in return would either "you" their master, or use the "third-person-address" to avoid it. As "youing" is a sign of respect towards superiors, of basic courtesy among noble equals or almost equals, a proud slave of nobility would avoid to address his capturer with "you" as this could be interpreted as submission, and rather prefer to adress him/her indirectly. "Thouing" a master would be a sign of defiance and probably end in the respective slave being beaten for it.
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*it seems this "erring on the side of caution" who what resulted "youing" having become the basic default in English. Which resulted in the curious situation that one now "yous" a lost single sock, but sometimes still "thous" God, a saint or an angels [see: "cultic setting"]. - Which seems contraintuitive.
 
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So any minor child should be theroretically "thoued" by all exceprt for slaves and very clearly lower standing persons. A not-yet walking baby who is still being carried around would most often be "thoued" virtually everbody.

We have very few under-the-age-of-reason characters. There is the occasional small child, but the chances of more than one line being directed towards them would be small...in every episode except the one with young Túrin and young Lalaith. So, yes that will come up this season, and we'll want to make a note of that.

Thus far, we have not depicted slavery outside of Angband. Class in Beleriand is not strictly analogous to class in England during the time that Early Modern English was spoken. We will want to depict Sador Labadal ('hop-a-foot'), the maimed servant who is friends with young Túrin. His story makes it very clear that he could have been a soldier of Dor-lómin if not for his unfortunate woodcutting accident, though, so he is not a lesser or slave class, merely a disabled man who has lost his expected place in society due to his injury.

We will need to show what happens to the people of Dor-lómin after the Easterlings arrive, though, and will likely have to navigate the issue of human slavery at that point. I am fine with slavery being absent from the Edain cultures before this, though. Slavery should be a corruption, a clear sign that something is wrong or influenced by Sauron or Morgoth. The fact that most of the inhabitants of Dor-lómin after the battle are old, lame, young, or women will shape how the Easterlings treat them.

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*it seems this "erring on the side of caution" was what resulted in "youing" having become the basic default in English. Which resulted in the curious situation that one now "yous" a lost single sock, but sometimes still "thous" God, a saint or an angel [see: "cultic setting"]. - Which seems contraintuitive.

Yes, exactly! We went to 'you' as a basic way to show respect for everyone, and in the process, 'thou' fell out of usage and became archaic. The original usage of 'thou/thee' in prayers and hymns to refer to God was meant to be familiar, as the term 'abba' that Jesus used for the Lord's prayer was understood to be the familiar 'dada' not the formal 'father', and the idea was that God could be addressed familiarly. Over time, however, by preserving the usage exclusively for Bible translations, hymns, prayers, Christmas carols, and the like, it became seen as more remote and separate - only for 'holy matters.' So in the end, 'you' is generic/common, meant for everyone....and thou/thee is reserved for God, making it seem the more 'respectful' version.

That is partly why a modern English speaker who does not know a language where this distinction has been preserved will likely be confused by 'familiar thou/thee' and will rather consider it to be more formal/archaic when they hear it. Having the Valar and the Elves of Valinor sound remote due to this usage is one thing...we don't want to be overdoing it in Beleriand. But we also don't want to drop it out of usage as much as we will in Lord of the Rings (where the hobbits never use it, like modern English speakers).
 
Speaking of Christmas carols...they're a great study in archaic language. Many of them are old, are translated from other languages, or deliberately use words that would not be common in spoken/written English (even contemporaneous with the composition of the Christmas carol, in some cases).

I'd like to look at a few of my favorites, and see how well their language would (or would not) fit Silm Film.

First up:

What Child is This? (To the tune of 'Greensleeves')

1. What Child is this, who, laid to rest
On Mary's lap is sleeping?
Whom angels greet with anthems sweet
While shepherds watch are keeping? (to refrain)

2. Why lies He in such mean estate,
Where ox and ass are feeding?
Good Christian, fear: for sinners here
The silent Word is pleading. (to refrain)

3. So bring Him incense, gold and myrrh
Come peasant, king to own Him
The King of kings salvation brings
Let loving hearts enthrone Him (to refrain)

Refrain:
This, this is Christ the King
Whom shepherds guard and angels sing
Haste, haste, to bring Him laud
The Babe, the Son of Mary

"Greensleeves" has been around since the 16th century; this song wound up in a hymnal in the 1860's. The author is credited as William Dix (Scottish).

There are a few neat things going on with the language in this song.

One is the inverted word order of the adjective after the noun in "anthems sweet" - presumably something you can do to make the rhyme work in a poem. And again with the verbs in 'watch are keeping' instead of 'are keeping watch,' and later 'salvation brings' instead of 'brings salvation'.

There are a couple of diction choices that sound rather archaic here, but need to be considered in context. "mean" here means crude or homely, rather than average or unkind. Using 'mean' to indicate 'stingy' was apparently a usage that arose in the 1860's-1870's. So it sounds old/archaic now, but at the time, it was a very current way of expressing that idea! Also, 'ass' meaning donkey has been around since Old English, but the 1860's was when it was starting to be used to refer to the buttocks. So, since this song was written, using 'ass' to refer to a donkey has fallen out of practice in the US, but we still sing it in the song.

"fear" meaning awe, or fear of the Lord, is something that we tend to specify now. "Fear" by itself like this would not typically be understood as anything other than being frightened. "fear" as religious awe or dread came into use starting in the year 1400. So it was a well-established usage when this song was written,

"own" here means to approve of or to accept, not to have possession of. This usage begins in 1610, so was well-established by the time the song was written. I like how the meaning is very clear, but the usage is also very clearly non-modern. In the description of the relationship between Sauron and Shelob, he is said to consider her 'his cat', but she rejects this interpretation, as the text tells us, "she owns him not." A quick internet search suggests that this archaic usage does confuse some readers (if she's the pet, why does it talk about her owning him?), but clearly Tolkien did use this in his writing, so we can too 🙂.

"Haste" as an imperative verb form is also archaic. You can say 'make haste' or 'hasten', but you wouldn't usually say 'haste' by itself like this. And, honestly, current usage would actually be 'hurry up,' so any form of 'haste' is going to be slightly archaic. "haste" has been in use since 1300, but using it is now considered a literary thing to do. Goldberry tells the hobbits to make haste while the sun shines, instead of the typical saying 'make hay while the sun shines'. So we can certainly use this one in Middle-earth!

"laud" is straight up Latin. It's appeared in English to mean praise (both verb and noun) from the 1300's, though the noun is now considered to be archaic. Interesting to note that Tolkien did not make use of this word for the Field of Cormallen - 'praise them with great praise,' but no glory, laud, or honor. Of course...how do you say 'praise' in Sindarin? laita....
 
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Next up: We Three Kings

1
We three kings of Orient are;
bearing gifts we traverse afar,
field and fountain, moor and mountain,
following yonder star. [Refrain]

2 Born a King on Bethlehem's plain,
gold I bring to crown him again,
King forever, ceasing never,
over us all to reign. [Refrain]

3 Frankincense to offer have I;
incense owns a Deity nigh;
prayer and praising, voices raising,
worshiping God on high. [Refrain]

4 Myrrh is mine; its bitter perfume
breathes a life of gathering gloom;
sorrowing, sighing, bleeding, dying,
sealed in the stone-cold tomb. [Refrain]

5 Glorious now behold him arise;
King and God and sacrifice:
Alleluia, Alleluia,
sounds through the earth and skies. [Refrain]

Refrain:
O star of wonder, star of light,
star with royal beauty bright,
westward leading, still proceeding,
guide us to thy perfect light.

Author: John Hopkins (1857) - American

Except for the final verse, the song uses a lot of alliteration.

Verse three uses 'own' in that archaic sense again: incense owns a Deity nigh; But 'nigh' is also a word we don't see much of any more. Mostly it shows up in phrases like "nigh impossible" or "the end is nigh!" or something "draws nigh". I think people can understand that it means 'near' though.

"yonder" for 'at a distance' is easily understood, but also old. People don't use it much anymore, I don't think. Tolkien references the poem Thomas the Rhymer (1883) in 'On Faerie Stories' that has this:
“O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the path of righteousness,
Though after it but few enquires.

“And see ye not that braid braid road,
That lies across that lily leven?
That is the path of wickedness,
Though some call it the road to heaven.

“And see ye not that bonny road,
That winds about yon fernie brae?
That is the road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.

"traverse" is maybe lesser used, but not exactly archaic. It just means to travel at an angle/zigzag because of the slope of a hill. It's been around since the 14th century...but comes from the French, so probably wouldn't be a word Tolkien would go out of his way to use.

"sorrowing" is interesting. I don't know if I've heard that used anywhere else before or not.

And, of course, the star is addressed familiarly with 'thy'.


Someone at Merriam Webster had the same idea I did:
 
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Hark the Herald Angels Sing

1
Hark! the Herald, Angels sing,
“Glory to the new born King;
Peace on Earth, and Mercy mild,
God and Sinners reconciled.
Joyful all ye Nations rise,
Join the Triumphs of the Skies,
With th' angelic Host proclaim,
Christ is born in Bethlehem. [Refrain]

2 Christ by highest Heaven ador'd,
Christ the everlasting Lord;
Late in Time behold him come,
Offspring of a Virgin's Womb;
Veil'd in Flesh, the Godhead see,
Hail th' Incarnate Deity!
Pleas'd as Man with men t' apear,
Jesus, our Immanuel here.

3 Hail the Heav'n born Prince of Peace!
Hail, the Son of Righteousness!
Light and Life to all he brings,
Ris'n with Healing in his Wings;
Mild he lays his Glory by,
Born, that Man no more may die,
Born to raise the sons of Earth;
Born to give them second Birth.

4 Come, Desire of Nations, come,
Fix in us thy humble Home;
Rise, the Woman's conq'ring seed,
Bruise in us the Serpent's Head;
Adam's Likeness now efface,
Stamp thine Image in its Place;
Second Adam from above,
Re-instate us in thy Love.

Refrain:
Hark! The herald angels sing,
Glory to the new born King.


Written by Charles Wesley (American) in 1739. Altered by George Whitefield. Tune by F. Mendelssohn (Festgesang)

There were a bunch of versions of this - the example above is from a 1774 hymnal.

I love the imagery in this. "risen with healing in his wings"

"Mild" is used twice, and not in the way it currently would be. "Peace on Earth, and Mercy mild," and "Mild he lays his Glory by,"

and of course "Hark!" is basically "Hwaet!" (or, well, maybe not, but that has been translated that way).
 
Okay, last one....

Veni, Veni Emmanuel is a 10th century Latin chant. It was translated into English by J. M. Neale (English) in 1851. And by Thomas Helmore, and others. Here's the Latin text: https://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/VeniEmm.html

1 O come, O come, Immanuel,
and ransom captive Israel
that mourns in lonely exile here
until the Son of God appear. [Refrain]

2 O come, O Wisdom from on high,
who ordered all things mightily;
to us the path of knowledge show
and teach us in its ways to go. [Refrain]

3 O come, O come, great Lord of might,
who to your tribes on Sinai's height
in ancient times did give the law
in cloud and majesty and awe. [Refrain]

4 O come, O Branch of Jesse's stem,
unto your own and rescue them!
From depths of hell your people save,
and give them victory o'er the grave. [Refrain]

5 O come, O Key of David, come
and open wide our heavenly home.
Make safe for us the heavenward road
and bar the way to death's abode. [Refrain]

6 O come, O Bright and Morning Star,
and bring us comfort from afar!
Dispel the shadows of the night
and turn our darkness into light. [Refrain]

7 O come, O King of nations, bind
in one the hearts of all mankind.
Bid all our sad divisions cease
and be yourself our King of Peace. [Refrain]

Refrain:
Rejoice! Rejoice! Immanuel
shall come to you, O Israel.



There are a few things I could comment on, but I'll be content to pluck out 'heavenward' as an interesting direction. I think we can append -ward to more words than we do and get away with it, without obscuring the meaning. (The more straightforward 'westward' appears in We Three Kings above)
 
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yonder" for 'at a distance' is easily understood, but also old. People don't use it much anymore, I don't think. Tolkien references the poem Thomas the Rhymer (1883) in 'On Faerie Stories' that has this:

“O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the path of righteousness,
Though after it but few enquires.

if we use "yon" - [which I happened to stumble over recently], then "fullnigh" for something "very near" would also be fitting. It is an Old English construction which still is obvious if used in Modern English

fullneáh Strong adjective full nigh

and
"sorrowing" is interesting. I don't know if I've heard that used anywhere else before or not.

There Beren came from mountains cold,
And lost he wandered under leaves,
And where the Elven-river rolled
He walked alone and sorrowing.
He peered between the hemlock-leaves
And saw in wonder flowers of gold
Upon her mantle and her sleeves,
And her hair like shadow following.


how could you forget? 😉
 
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