Dance Choreography

Felarof

Felarof

New Member
Hello,
I noticed that there was no thread for dance choreography, and, with characters such as Nessa and Lúthien, there is certainly a need of one, not to mention the necessity of information for music, costuming, and casting discussions. I've been doing Irish Step Dance for six years now, and hopefully there are some other people on this forum who have some experience with any style of dance. Here is a list of all the scenes where dance choreography is needed according to the script outlines for seasons one through five:
S1 E2
Scene 6l​
iii, iv​
Nessa dances on the reflecting pool in Almaren.​
S1 E5
Scene 4a​
intro, i, ii​
Nessa dances into Ungoliant's lair during the creation of the Lamps.​
S1 E6
Scene 4a​
The Valar have a celi/squaredance/linedance/other communal dance at the wedding of Tulkas and Nessa.​
S1 E11
Scene 3a​
iv​
Tulkas and Nessa are giving dance lessons in Lorien.​
S3 E3
Scene 5 (Act II)​
There is dancing during a feast in Doriath; Lúthien is introduced to the audience and dances to Daeron's musc.​
S3 E4
Scene 14 (Act IV)​
Lúthien dances before a company of elves and dwarves at Sarn Ford on the Gelion; the dwarves are not impressed.​
S3 E9
Scene 13 (Act III)​
Tevildo sees Daeron and Lúthien dance in the forest of Region.​
S3 E13
Scene 15 (Act IV)​
Bullet point 7​
Luthien dances by the Esgalduin at the rising of the sun, and flowers spring up at her feet.​
S4 E3
Scene 7 (Act II)​
Galadriel talks about running and dancing on the shores of Valinor as a child (we will only need to choreograph steps if this is a flashback and not exposition).​
Scene 9 (Act III)​
Lúthien is teaching a dance class to Galadriel et al. in Menegroth; Celeborn sees this.​
Scene 11 (Act III)​
There is a captivation conversation between Galadriel and Celeborn comparing and contrasting Sindarin and Valinorian dance styles.​
S4 E5
Act III​
¶ 2​
Lúthien unifies a competition between Daeron and Maglor by dancing; Orodreth and Meril are dancing in the background​
¶ 3​
Galadriel and Celeborn dance and then leave because the music is too loud.​
Act IV​
¶ 4​
Lúthien sings/dances and transforms Sauron's music; Daeron and Maglor join in later.​
S4 E11
Scene 12 (Act III)​
Lúthien urges Galadriel and Celeborn to dance; Daeron invites Luthien to dance.​
S5 E4
Scene 8 (Act II)​
There is a celebration with dancing when the stockade is completed at Haldad's homestead; Haleth does not dance.​
 
Last edited:
Hello and welcome, Felarof!

I agree that dance choreography is something that coordinates with both costuming and music, as they are interrelated. Lúthien's costumes are typically meant to showcase her freedom of movement (as would Nessa's). And we can consider someone's dancing experience in casting decisions. The actors chosen for both Lúthien and Beren had experience with roles that included dancing in their portfolios.

But there is certainly room to explore dance choreography more fully, and I welcome a discussion on the topic. Similarly, our show often needs fight choreography as well (though that could be a separate thread).

I can clear up one misunderstanding:
Felarof said:
S3 E8
Scene 20 (Act III)
"Tragic music, Dances With Wolves-skinned-bison-style scene" (what does this mean?).
Click to expand...

This is a reference to the following scene from the film Dances With Wolves:


So, choreography wouldn't be needed for that one.
 
The discussions on fight choreography appear to be isolated to the Sets and Props sub-forum, mainly in the Swords thread and Tactical Styles of Middle-Earth thread.
 
For Nessa's dancing on the reflecting pool in Almaren, I was wondering if there should be any hint of sadness similar to Nienna's watering the Trees with here tears when Yavanna first made them. On one hand it might be a nice parallel and foreshadowing of the destruction of Almaren, but on the other, it might not make sense given Nessa's character and the fact that Melkor has not entered Arda yet. In the script discussion of so1eo2, it was brought up that Nessa should just dance off in the middle of a conversation; however, this was dismissed as silly, and the conversation digressed into one about the heigts of the Ainur:
In the outline Ulmo makes the pool "with the purpose of bringing joy to everyone" (scene 6k iii) and "Nessa rejoices and begins to dance upon the surface of the water" (scene 6l iii), indicating pure joy. I suppose that this question is also strongly correlated to what position Nessa takes in the debate on whether to build Almaren or not. Nick Palazzo also suggested that Nessa and Vana dance together; is there a reason that this did not get into the script outlines?
PS the time stamp for when the idea of Nessa dancing across the water was introduced is 2:31 and the time stamp for the original discussion of Nessa is 2:03 in case the embedded video does not automatically go there.
 
Here is a list of essential questions which should be answered before coming up with choreography for every dance; I'll update this with any new ones suggested later:
1. How long is the dance?
2. Is the music to which the dance is performed within the scene or is it also the sound track for the (part of) the scene?
3. If the answer to 2 is the former, how long should the music be played before the start of the dance?
4. What are the limits placed on the choreography by the circumstances?
5. What theme/emotion do we want to portray?
6. Within the scene what is the skill level of the character?
7. What style of dance should it be?
8. What type of dance should it be within the specific style?
9. How do we end the dance (e.g., do we cut away in the middle; if not, does the dancer bow; does the music end with the dance or afterwards; etc.)?
10. What are the specifics of the music, for example, the time/key signature (this might overlap with 8) and the tempo?
 
Last edited:
Felarof said:
For Nessa's dancing on the reflecting pool in Almaren, I was wondering if there should be any hint of sadness similar to Nienna's watering the Trees with here tears when Yavanna first made them. On one hand it might be a nice parallel and foreshadowing of the destruction of Almaren, but on the other, it might not make sense given Nessa's character and the fact that Melkor has not entered Arda yet. In the script discussion of so1eo2, it was brought up that Nessa should just dance off in the middle of a conversation; however, this was dismissed as silly, and the conversation digressed into one about the heigts of the Ainur:
In the outline Ulmo makes the pool "with the purpose of bringing joy to everyone" (scene 6k iii) and "Nessa rejoices and begins to dance upon the surface of the water" (scene 6l iii), indicating pure joy. I suppose that this question is also strongly correlated to what position Nessa takes in the debate on whether to build Almaren or not. Nick Palazzo also suggested that Nessa and Vana dance together; is there a reason that this did not get into the script outlines?
PS the time stamp for when the idea of Nessa dancing across the water was introduced is 2:31 and the time stamp for the original discussion of Nessa is 2:03 in case the embedded video does not automatically go there.
Click to expand...

I think this is a case where the music of the scene would inform the choreography. The music "doesn't lie" - so, if there is inherent sadness in the creation of Almaren (it's beautiful, but it will be lost), then that sadness should at least be hinted at in the music.

However, we're going to be much closer to joy than sadness here. The idea that Nessa can dance on the water is meant to capture the lightness of joy, joy that is not weighed down by sorrow. So I think we're looking for just the smallest hint of loss and sorrow, but the strong overwhelming focus ought to be joy.

Phillip Menzies has put a bit of a frenetic quality into Nessa's music. So, her dancing should have elements of surprise or the unexpected. I think that is how we'd foreshadow the destruction of Almaren here, rather than with sorrow (which doesn't really fit the scene).


Joy that turns to loss is part of the story being told in "Evanescent Lightsomeness". That composition focuses on mortal love, but perhaps a hint of it could be used to foreshadow that Almaren will be shortlived.


(PS - wow, we are certainly all younger in the Season 1 script discussions! )
 
For Nessa's dance on the reflecting pool:
I) How long is the dance? This is up to the execs and the script team based on whether they need to draw it out to fill time or if the episode is already a bit rushed; however I can't imagine it would be longer than two steps (a step is sixteen bars, aka measures, long, or about fifty seconds to a slip jig BPM 113 (see VII, VIII, X)).
II) Is the music to which the dance is performed within the scene or is it also the sound track for the part of the scene? I was thinking that it would be best to have the music as the soundtrack for the part of the scene as otherwise it would be hard to deal with the end as Manwë and Ulmo are talking next to the reflecting pool, and it might be awkward either for there to be a musician in the background who stops playing as soon as Manwë and Ulmo start talking or one who continues to play throughout their conversation, and it would be easier to have the soundtrack just fade away as Manwë and Ulmo start talking.
III) If the answer to 2 is the former, how long should the music be played before the start of the dance? N/A
IV) First, there can be no jumps as we do not want do deal with how to make realistic special effects for someone landing on a pool. Also, we must make choreography that has much movement both because it would be more realistic with the water and because Nessa is known for her speed; I couldn't imagine her just standing around in a more stationary dance.
V)What theme/emotion do we want to portray? This has already been discussed.
VI) Within the scene what is the skill level of the character? Very high; Nessa is the goddess of dancing.
VII) What style of dance should it be? Okay, on this one I have a bit of bias; the most obvious alternative to Irish Step would be Ballet, as I'm sure there is a sub-style with enough movement for this scene. When (or if) anyone else with some dance experience comes along, feel free to propose a different style of dance, but for now I'm going to go with Irish Step.
VIII)What type of dance should it be within the specific style? Slip jig, this is in 9/8 and is the best type of dance under these conditions.
IX) How do we end the dance? The dance is ended by cutting away to Manwē and Ulmo discussing Almaren.
X) What are the specifics of the music? The time signature would be 9/8; the key should be major but is otherwise up the the music team; the traditional speed for a slip jig is 113 BPM, and we could do that, but it might be good to have it a bit faster at 122 BPM or so, as Nessa is the fastest being in Arda.
Here is an example of a slip jig from worlds 2023:
Here is an example from Riverdance (one of the best-known Irish dance shows). The relevant part is from where it should automatically start at 3:23 until the Russian dancers come on at around 6 min.
As for music, we certainly do not want generic accordion music similar to that of the first video. I was thinking something with a style similar to this:
and a speed closer to this:
I've made an mp3 for Ellery Klein's "Slip Jigs 113" that is sped up to 1.08x (113x1.08=122.04), but it won't let me attach an mp3. Is there an mp3 alternative that is allowed on these boards (see next post)? If you want further elaboration on any of these answers, just ask; I'm just trying to keep these types of posts as concise as possible.
 
Last edited:
You cannot upload an mp3/mp4 directly here. You would have to upload it to a platform like YouTube or vimeo, and then link it here. Your google drive solution also works.

I agree that the energy of an Irish slip jig matches the scene and could certainly have the joyful expression we are looking for. And string music should be fine (though I'll let the composer weigh in!). I do have some serious concerns about using this style of dance as the fundamental dance-to-begin-all-dance, though. Irish step dancing has some pretty serious restrictions on it, and those have a historical source. To have Nessa just decide to keep the rigid shoulders and a straight back and rely on kicks to express herself here is going to feel...a bit odd. Why this limitation? Why this style?

So, my first question for you is this: How would you feel about keeping the style of an Irish slip jig (high energy, dancing lightly across the surface of the water with high kicks), but modifying it to include arm movements as well? Bending the back during transitions? That will make it fundamentally no longer Irish step dancing....but I think that would be a bonus here? The 'source' of all dancing should incorporate signature moves from a variety of styles, I would think.

Obviously, I don't expect you to have an example video of someone blending Irish step with something else (ballet, as you suggested). But if you could think of another style you would like to incorporate that might help with the choreography? I would like for this dance in particular to have a universal appeal, and not be clearly linked to one style of dance or one particular culture.
 
Last edited:
I completely agree that we should try to incorporate elements of as many dance styles as possible. As for incorporating arm movements, there are two major directions. One is to have highly-choreographed, sharp arm movements; one can see this type of style integrated into Irish dance in Riverdance's "Reel around the Sun" (the lead's solo part):
The other way to take this is to use more improvised and less sharp arm movements typical of historical jazz dance (There is not one particular place in this video that is a good example, but this style can be seen in most parts of the video):
 
I think that improvised/non-uniform motions might appear to be more spontaneous to the viewer, which would fit the character in this scene. And it might be unusual paired with the much more uniform footwork, making it look a bit different. But we'd have an 'excuse' for the footwork - she's skipping on water! And the upper body would perhaps appear to be more 'natural' looking, transitioning every time she changes direction. She might appear to be a leaf caught in the wind, blown across the lake.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top