Gandalf's assertions regarding Rings of Power and the creation of wraiths

[Anthony Lawther]

This supposes that:
1. The torment or desire would drive them to do such a thing. Gollum, for instance, feels terrible desire for the Ring, but never seems to contemplate even for a moment harming himself to find relief. Further, any such decision would be made by all nine of them.

You have introduced the concept of such a transformation being a form of self-harm. Just like body-art, some see it as self-harm and others see it as augmentation.

2. That they have the capacity to do such a thing. With Sauron in possession of the One, would they have been capable on their own in such a way?

Or if it is Sauron's will that they do so, they'd be powerless to resist.

3. That they are ignorant of the function of the Morgul blades.

Or that there is another, less painful, way to make the transformation.

I'm sorry, but to me, this all strains credulity far more than any explanation Gandalf gives. Gandalf gives an explanation which is at least consistent with the data he has. Other explanations may be thought up which are also consistent, but as that's true for pretty much any explanation of anything, I don't see it as sufficient reason to suppose that Gandalf is wrong.

Yes, Gandalf has been wrong before, but so has literally every single other person in Arda. It is not reasonable to expect that even one of the Wise should be utterly infallible; only that he recognize and learn from what mistakes he does make, which Gandalf seems to do. I don't see how Gandalf being mistaken in the past indicates that he's mistaken here, in the absence of other evidence.

It doesn't; it also doesn't deny the right to question whether he's mistaken here too.

Please understand my position. I'm actually not saying that Gandalf is wrong, I just find it somewhat disconcerting to hear elements of the story being discussed with such care and such detail, and then other elements appear to skate by unexamined because people may have never considered any other alternative.

For decades I too felt no impetus to challenge these elements, but to hear Corey talking about Aragorn and Frodo knowing (not simply believing) that Frodo's ultimate fate is to become a wraith through continued possession of the One Ring, strikes a bad note for me. It may in fact be true, but I can't accept the position that it is proven. In prior readings of the text, I recognised Aragorn's caution regarding the casual talk of wraiths and Mordor, but not a sense of certainty of Frodo's fate. Given the events of that night at Weathertop, Frodo's fate seems to be sealed, but I'm not convinced that it was before that point.

 

[Jim Deutch]

where have we seen non-Ring wraiths in the text?

Wraiths and things kind of like wraiths in the Lord of the Rings:

The Nine​

Barrow Wights​

The Oathbreakers army of the Dead? Somehow related to wraiths, maybe...​

The Watcher in Cirith Ungol? Probably something different...​

The ghost of Helm Hammerhand? Probably just a legend of the Rohirrim.​

Saruman after Wormtongue stabs him?​

Sauron after the Ring is destroyed?​

Wraiths in the larger legendarium:

Gorlim - more a ghost than a wraith; like the oathbreakers?​

That's all I can come up with, and it really comes down to the Nazgul, the Barrow Wights, and maybe related but not the same thing, the Oathbreakers.

It's interesting to note that the Barrow Wights and the Nazgul were not only similar, but were literally the same beings in original conception, but this only muddies the waters for this discussion, I think. And we never get any detailed origin story for the Barrow Wights, as far as I know: they're just evil spirits who came to inhabit the barrows (perhaps at the invitation/summons of the Witch King).

We are told, and have no reason to disbelieve, that the Rings of Power were invented by Sauron to bring the peoples of Middle Earth under his sway. They were supposed to bring their bearers into his power through Ruling Ring, but this plan succeeded only with the Nine; in those nine cases, the bearers became wraiths. A connection could be assumed - and one is explicitly asserted by Gandalf - but there is a dearth of actual evidence in the text.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Wraith and Ghost are synonyms. Wraith from Scots, and Ghost of Germanic origin.

 

[JJ48]

I guess ultimately, what it comes down to for me is whether or not we trust that Gandalf knows what he's talking about. After all, he's been wrong before. On the other hand, he's also read and witnessed many things that are not recorded anywhere in the text.

For my own part, I prefer to trust that Gandalf and the other Wise know what they're talking about, except in cases where we have good reason to doubt them. To use the example of a doctor, I might look for a second opinion if I don't think the doctor's diagnosis makes sense. However, if I don't have any particular reason to doubt him, I'm not going to worry about all the possible ways he could be wrong, and will instead simply trust that medical school has likely taught him to know more about the subject than I do.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

I guess ultimately, what it comes down to for me is whether or not we trust that Gandalf knows what he's talking about. After all, he's been wrong before. On the other hand, he's also read and witnessed many things that are not recorded anywhere in the text.

For my own part, I prefer to trust that Gandalf and the other Wise know what they're talking about, except in cases where we have good reason to doubt them. To use the example of a doctor, I might look for a second opinion if I don't think the doctor's diagnosis makes sense. However, if I don't have any particular reason to doubt him, I'm not going to worry about all the possible ways he could be wrong, and will instead simply trust that medical school has likely taught him to know more about the subject than I do.

A perfectly reasonable approach in your example. The reason I brought this up in the first place is that Corey is attributing characters (including Aragorn and Frodo) with certain knowledge, rather than certain belief. This flies in the face of Corey's approach to so much of the textual analysis that I now find it jarring.

 

[Jim Deutch]

Wraith and Ghost are synonyms. Wraith from Scots, and Ghost of Germanic origin.

It's odd that JRRT would prefer "wraith" with its "unknown origin" over the good old Anglo-Saxon "ghost". I think it likely that the modern word "ghost" carries too much baggage, with all the connotations it has gained over the years, rather like the way "fairy" implies a diminutive winged person, leading him to use "elf" instead (not that "elf" is free of baggage of its own, of course). "Wraith" is sufficiently obscure that he can make it mean what he wants it to mean. Or at least suggest.

I don't think he actually uses the word "ghost" at all. When he wants to indicate the spirit of a dead person that has not yet gone to the Halls of Mandos, he uses "shade", yet another Germanic synonym. I am quite convinced that Tolkien's uses of the two words "wraith" and "shade" is quite deliberate. Though they are technically synonyms, his use of them is disjunct. He makes each of them into a technical term with a distinct meaning. Just what the meaning of "wraith" is in tLotR, however, is not entirely clear...

technical term: a seemingly ordinary word or phrase, the meaning

of which in some contexts is distorted beyond​

mortal comprehension. (Note: "technical term"​

is a technical term.)​

 

[Beech27]

Out of curiosity, I looked at my e-text, and it appears "ghost" (or a variant) appears three times:

The wood was full of the rumour of him, dreadful tales even among beasts and birds. The Woodmen said that there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that drank blood.

Frodo's pain had redoubled, and during the day things about him faded to shadows of ghostly grey.

Far into the dark quiet hours they floated on, guiding their boats under the overhanging shadows of the western woods. Great trees passed by like ghosts, thrusting their twisted thirsty roots through the mist down into the water.

 

[Jim Deutch]

"ghost" (or a variant) appears three times

Oh, thank you! I dropped my Kindle the other day and most of the touch-screen has gone touch-insensitive; all I can do is page forward, so when I finish the current book I'm going to have to replace it.

So we have three words, with (rather tentative) usage notes:

1. "wraith" - applied to Nazgul and Barrow Wights
2. "shade" - applied to dead people not yet gone to Mandos
3. "ghost" - applied metaphorically by the narrator, and used by the Woodmen