Sorry, thanks, I definitely mean Amras!
Prophecy of Huan
- Thread starter Octoburn
- Start date
Here is what we currently have about Huan:
He is cast to look like an Irish Wolfhound, but the size of at least a pony, if not a small horse.
Generally speaking, he is on screen if Celegorm is around.
Season 2
Huan is introduced in Season 2 as Celegorm's companion on a hunt with Oromë, and is seen greeting Aredhel later in that episode in a scene with Celegorm but not Oromë. (Ep 9; Celegorm is still a child in Episode 8, and Huan is not seen prior to this)
Huan is present at Formenos; just laying around forlorn in the courtyard and such (Ep 11)
Huan travels with the Sons of Fëanor to the Feast of Reconciliation, where he happily reunites with Oromë's other hounds, despite the Sons of Fëanor being standoffish towards their cousins. (Ep 12)
Huan is the first being (after Yavanna) to notice that something is wrong with the light of the Trees during the Darkening of Valinor. Oromë, Tulkas, and Eonwë hunt Melkor and Ungoliant...it is likely Oromë has his hounds with him, but unlikely that Huan would have gone along.(Ep. 13)
Season 3
Huan is present when the Noldor decide to leave Tirion, and helps to 'herd' some of them along to hurry them on their way out. (Ep 1)
Huan is present during the Kinslaying in Alqualondë, where his main role it to chase the Teleri elves off the ships, causing them to jump into the water ...a non-lethal approach to taking the ships and protecting his master. (Ep 2)
Huan scouts with Celegorm after the arrival in Middle-earth; together they find the Rainbow Cleft, pre-Rainbows (Ep 9)
Huan takes part in the Battle-Under-Stars, helping Celegorm's cavalry to rout Sauron's werewolves at the Fens of Sirion (Ep 10)
Huan and Celegorm scout closer to Angband, mostly as an excuse to get away from bickering brothers (Ep 13)
Season 4
Huan is present at the meeting between the Fëanoreans and the Fingolfinians discussing the disappearance of Fingon (Ep 1)
During the Dagor Aglareb, Huan is with Celegorm when he first spots the army emerging from Angband, and when Celegorm's cavalry saves the day at the end. (Ep 9)
Brief appearance when Aredhel visits Celegorm and Curufin (Ep 12)
Helps Fingon and Celegorm track and fight Glaurung (Ep 13)
Obviously, Huan will also appear in Seasons 5 and 6, but I just wanted to clarify what has definitely already been done with him to help people figure out how we want to handle things like his speaking and his prophecies.
He is cast to look like an Irish Wolfhound, but the size of at least a pony, if not a small horse.
Generally speaking, he is on screen if Celegorm is around.
Season 2
Huan is introduced in Season 2 as Celegorm's companion on a hunt with Oromë, and is seen greeting Aredhel later in that episode in a scene with Celegorm but not Oromë. (Ep 9; Celegorm is still a child in Episode 8, and Huan is not seen prior to this)
Huan is present at Formenos; just laying around forlorn in the courtyard and such (Ep 11)
Huan travels with the Sons of Fëanor to the Feast of Reconciliation, where he happily reunites with Oromë's other hounds, despite the Sons of Fëanor being standoffish towards their cousins. (Ep 12)
Huan is the first being (after Yavanna) to notice that something is wrong with the light of the Trees during the Darkening of Valinor. Oromë, Tulkas, and Eonwë hunt Melkor and Ungoliant...it is likely Oromë has his hounds with him, but unlikely that Huan would have gone along.(Ep. 13)
Season 3
Huan is present when the Noldor decide to leave Tirion, and helps to 'herd' some of them along to hurry them on their way out. (Ep 1)
Huan is present during the Kinslaying in Alqualondë, where his main role it to chase the Teleri elves off the ships, causing them to jump into the water ...a non-lethal approach to taking the ships and protecting his master. (Ep 2)
Huan scouts with Celegorm after the arrival in Middle-earth; together they find the Rainbow Cleft, pre-Rainbows (Ep 9)
Huan takes part in the Battle-Under-Stars, helping Celegorm's cavalry to rout Sauron's werewolves at the Fens of Sirion (Ep 10)
Huan and Celegorm scout closer to Angband, mostly as an excuse to get away from bickering brothers (Ep 13)
Season 4
Huan is present at the meeting between the Fëanoreans and the Fingolfinians discussing the disappearance of Fingon (Ep 1)
During the Dagor Aglareb, Huan is with Celegorm when he first spots the army emerging from Angband, and when Celegorm's cavalry saves the day at the end. (Ep 9)
Brief appearance when Aredhel visits Celegorm and Curufin (Ep 12)
Helps Fingon and Celegorm track and fight Glaurung (Ep 13)
Obviously, Huan will also appear in Seasons 5 and 6, but I just wanted to clarify what has definitely already been done with him to help people figure out how we want to handle things like his speaking and his prophecies.
Alcarlótë
Active Member
Reading through this, the „speak three times part“ was apparently mentioned by Orome in S03, and also isn't all too impactful; Huan can mention it to Luthien again when he speaks with words for the first time.
The prophecy about his death („Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.“) wasn't integrated into SilmFilm yet, at least as far as this thread goes; and, even though it would make things easier, we can't just go back and insert stuff into previous seasons.
So we still need to reveal the prophecy to the audience through someone Huan is relevant to (Huan might know it already, but it's not like he can articulate it in a language the audience understands - he would need to tell Celegorm or another speaker of dog about it). This could be simplified by assuming it's already known to characters around Huan and it only comes up in the show now and/or by showing Morgoth having insight into Huan's doom on his own, with little or maybe even no information to go on.
Also, we need to reveal it to the villains since both Sauron and Morgoth are influenced by it in their actions. As was already mentioned, this should take place in Season 5: Morgoth takes some time, like he did with Glaurung, to prepare Carcharoth, who we could more or less directly tease in Season 5 if we want to. Also, after the Dagor Bragollach when the leaguer is broken, Huan retreats from the front lines and will be far away and hidden in Nargothrond; he loses a lot of relevance to the forces of Angband at that point, so the villain storyline of Season 6 isn't a good fit for introducing his prophecy in a timely manner.
What do you guys think about this? Am I correct in my assumptions about the state of Huan's Prophecy in SilmFilm so far? I started thinking about how to integrate all of this into the storylines of the planned assault on Angband, the villain storylines and the Dagor Bragollach, but it'd be unwise to proceed on possibly false assumptions and without input from others.
The prophecy about his death („Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.“) wasn't integrated into SilmFilm yet, at least as far as this thread goes; and, even though it would make things easier, we can't just go back and insert stuff into previous seasons.
So we still need to reveal the prophecy to the audience through someone Huan is relevant to (Huan might know it already, but it's not like he can articulate it in a language the audience understands - he would need to tell Celegorm or another speaker of dog about it). This could be simplified by assuming it's already known to characters around Huan and it only comes up in the show now and/or by showing Morgoth having insight into Huan's doom on his own, with little or maybe even no information to go on.
Also, we need to reveal it to the villains since both Sauron and Morgoth are influenced by it in their actions. As was already mentioned, this should take place in Season 5: Morgoth takes some time, like he did with Glaurung, to prepare Carcharoth, who we could more or less directly tease in Season 5 if we want to. Also, after the Dagor Bragollach when the leaguer is broken, Huan retreats from the front lines and will be far away and hidden in Nargothrond; he loses a lot of relevance to the forces of Angband at that point, so the villain storyline of Season 6 isn't a good fit for introducing his prophecy in a timely manner.
What do you guys think about this? Am I correct in my assumptions about the state of Huan's Prophecy in SilmFilm so far? I started thinking about how to integrate all of this into the storylines of the planned assault on Angband, the villain storylines and the Dagor Bragollach, but it'd be unwise to proceed on possibly false assumptions and without input from others.
Good idea to bring this up.
Yes, more or less! I agree with most of your conclusions. Keep in mind though that the earlier seasons only exist in the form of outlines, and it should be possible to include info and reminders about this stuff when/if they're turned into scripts.
I think we might want to consider introducing Carcaroth next season. It was discussed briefly here: DISCUSSION ABOUT CARCAROTH'S INTRO (posts #208-#239 I believe)
Alcarlótë
Active Member
Thinking about this, having had the explicit prophecy a few seasons ago wouldn't do us much good anyway...we'd have to have a "Remember this? It's finally relevant now!" moment because it was so long ago, and considering how many times Huan has fought without worry already bringing it up now would be like showing Chekhov's figurative gun and doing nothing with it for a long time, and then before it's finally used someone reminds everyone that the gun has been there the whole time.
It would be better to just have a moment clearly establishing that in regards to the Doom of Mandos, Huan is firstly a character affected by it - not just a pet who Mandos isn't including in the group of people he's adressing by default - and secondly has agency and moral responsibility, who makes a conscious choice to stay faithful to Celegorm and knows he's dooming himself in the process.
I'd portray this first in Episode 7 of Season 3 by showing him listening (as much as you can make that clear with a dog) to the Doom, and then lingering and looking back for a bit before he turns around to catch up to Celegorm and the others on his own accord (without being called or looked for).
In the script outline for Episode 11 of Season 3, when the Valar discuss whether they should intervene in Middle-Earth, Yavanna doesn't want to abandon Middle-Earth to Morgoth. I'd add to that by having Orome championing one of the opposing arguments (the "It's their free will to fight Morgoth" one would probably fit best), to which Yavanna replies that Orome's chief hound has fallen under the Doom of Woe out of loyalty and is in danger if they don't help the inhabitants of Middle-Earth. Orome replies that Huan chose to stay loyal to Celegorm on his own (which is important considering he will choose to abandon Celegorm for Luthien later on), and that his willingness to pay this price secures him a part in the songs (the ones Feanor mentioned in his reply to Manwe and were brought up at the beginning of this scene).
Thanks for the link!
I don't really mind introducing him in Season 6, in fact it's probably best to keep him secret until after Sauron loses to Huan; that Huan manages to defeat Sauron and Draugluin is a great eucatastrophic moment in the story, which would be robbed of surprise and tension if the viewers know that Huan can't die here and Sauron has to fail because he lacks crucial information.The important parts that we need to set up for the villains are that (1) Morgoth knows about the prophecy when he starts to "prepare" Carcharoth in whatever way we see fit, (2) Sauron knows about the prophecy when he turns himself into a wolf in Tol-in-Gaurhoth but (3) doesn't know that Morgoth is preparing Carcharoth, because it makes assuming wolf-form himself pointless.
Personally, I'd like to do (1) and (2) before the Dagor Bragollach because Huan becomes pretty irrelevant to the villains after that until he shows up at Sauron's gates. And starting at that point means having Sauron figuring out the prophecy as Draugluin is dying, getting that information to Morgoth somehow (I wouldn't know how without introducing a new convienient witness at Tol-in-Gaurhoth since everyone there dies or flees somewhere else), and him getting Carcharoth ready before Beren and Luthien show up at Angband. That is firstly too much and too convient to happen so quickly, and secondly showing Morgoth (and Carcharoth) a lot right before Beren and Luthien meet him would take away from his role as the distant, ultimate menaces in Beren's quest and the moment when they finally meet him in the throne room.
My current intuition on how we should do this plotline is that at any time before the Dagor Bragollach, Thuringwethil spies on the fortifications at the Pass of Aglon to kill two birds with one stone - figure out the fortification's weaknesses (so they can get behind the main Feanorian force at Himring and Maglor's Gap; also, the Pass of Aglon is the weakest point apart from Maglor's Gap which doesn't have many secrets to discover - it's just flat land with lots of troops) and Huan's weakness (because he is part of the Doomed that came from Aman, but has been a mighty wolf-counterforce in Celegorm's cavalry, apparently without ever getting in serious danger). Celegorm and Huan have an insight about Huan's doom to die before the mightiest wolf (if we want to, with a connection to Fingolfin's assault proposal and/or Aredhel's dissapearance/death, since she is Celegorm's friend) in more or less vague terms. He talks about it with words, again in more or less vague terms depending on our preference, with Huan and/or a companion of his (probably Curufin), and Thuringwethil overhears that. After her task is sufficiently complete, she goes to Sauron and Morgoth to relay the information she gathered (the less clear the prophecy was to her, the more the villains need some insight of their own, which would be fine with me). Morgoth either doesn't react to it or only in the vaguest of ways, while Sauron prepares Draugluin to seek out Huan in future battles - that would be a good plot element to build on during the Dagor Bragollach and Huan's retreat along with Celegorm.
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YES.
Well, I like the idea to some degree, but...maybe I feel that if the Valar started to talk about Huan at that point, we'd risk either making too much of it (he's a fairly minor character after all), or it would be a casual comment that perhaps not get noticed or not make much sense. I'm not saying I'm against it though.
Alcarlótë
Active Member
I think it's the best argument Yavanna can employ, firstly against Orome's free will argument (because she doesn't regard Huan's decision as truly free considering his loyal nature and that Orome made Celegorm his master) and secondly against his disregard for the lives that will be lost in the battles to come - she figures that if there's anyone Orome cares about among the exiles, it's Huan.
It's also just one exchange in a lenghty debate scene, a point that comes up in the middle of it and won't be repeated or made part of the final conclusion. It's not something most people would remember for long, but it makes sense on its own and the more involved viewers - and everyone rewatching - would notice the foreshadowing there and talk about to their friends and online.
Lastly, I think Huan would be a more important character than the amount of screentime or plot significance he had up until this point suggests. I remember how much talk there was about the direwolves in the GoT community despite them being pretty minor characters, especially about the tragic deaths of most of them. And here we have one giant wolfhound that has been slaying monsters since Season 1 as basically the only significant animal character among dozens of humanoid Elves and Valar - he'll stick out a lot more than an elf in the same role would.
I'm not married to the scene since the main discussion about Season 3 is long over and the ideas I have for the Prophecy in Season 5 can work without it, but I instantly liked it when I first thought of it
Alcarlótë
Active Member
Yay After reading so many discussions on here and listening to most of the podcast episodes, I'm really enjoying taking part in the development of the series myself...and I'm really looking forward to tonight's session, even if it'll be on very different topic. I'll have to think and write a lot more about this before we get to the villain plotlines!
After reading so many discussions on here and listening to most of the podcast episodes, I'm really enjoying taking part in the development of the series myself...and I'm really looking forward to tonight's session, even if it'll be on very different topic. I'll have to think and write a lot more about this before we get to the villain plotlines!