S03E05 Script Discussion

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So, Karita. We have a significant subplot in this episode that involves Lúthien dancing to bring light and hope to her very worried people. There's even some philosophical discussion of the importance of the arts, in a 'not by swords alone' kind of way. Listening to me try to discuss that is *painful* - I have no vocabulary to talk about dancing at all. So, input from *anyone* who knows more about dancing than I do (ie, likely everyone) would be much appreciated!
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Teaser

Estel with Elladan, Elrohir and the Dunedain on the road. Winter has begun to set in. Wolves are heard in the distance, but we don’t discuss it. Estel complains about life on the road. Elladan and Elrohir chide him, but comment upon how unnaturally early the winter is.

Act 1


Scene 1

Celeborn returns to Mengroth after journeying through the north. He comes before Thingol to give him news of what is going on out in the world. Thingol's inner circle are in attendance, along with Norn. Debriefing montage where we see Celeborn and his companions journeying through the mountains. He spies out Thangorodrim from afar, makes his way east, sees the remains of a destroyed elvish settlement, and catches sight of Boldog's huge army.

Scene 2

Luthien encountering lower decks panic and going to Melian: The Sindar are discussing the news brought in by Celeborn in tones ranging from concern to panic. Luthien overhears this as she moves amongst the people, and goes to speak to Melian in private, expressing a feeling of powerlessness. Melian reassures her, says she is anything but powerless.

Scene 3

Celeborn encounters Norn preparing to leave. Norn is concerned for his new friends and wants them to flee as well. He doesn't want to watch them get slaughtered because they are so unprepared. Celeborn convinces Norn that with the dwarves help, they can resist the enemy.

Scene 4

Sauron and Thuringwethil arrive in Spidertown. Unlike in Melkor's encounter with Ungoliant, the spiders aren't interested in talking. They ravenously attack the two newcomers and Thuringwethil is injured. Sauron manages to fly them both off to safety.


Act 2

Scene 1

Estel entertaining younger kids with the story of the building of Menegroth. Hamilcar and some other youths look on from just within earshot, though their sneers indicate they are "too cool" to listen.

Scene 2

Telchar and Gamil-Dude arrive, and are met by Norn and Celeborn. Telchar’s master shows disapproval for the elves’ weapons, Telchar suggests some improvements on the theme. They will need shields in order for their spears to be effective. Their bows will need to be more powerful, and their arrowheads more penetrating.

Scene 3

Luthien and Daeron work on the panic problem. Daeron feels like he should be helping more practically. Luthien demonstrates the power of elfsong, perhaps reviving a wilting flower.

Scene 4

Surveying team: Norn/Celeborn are following the Esgaluin. Norn describes what he is looking for, a hill on a bight in the river where a structure can focus its defenses on one approach. Celeborn can’t think of anything, but is willing to try and help them find some place.


Act 3

Scene 1

Hamilcar and his friends mock Estel. Estel reacts angrily. Berates them using concepts and metaphors they are not privy to. He is called out on this by Elladan and Elrohir.


Scene 2

Sauron and Thuringwethil. Sauron is tending to Thuringwethil. She thinks this is a lost cause. He comes up with a plan.




Scene 3

Arming “montage”. Beleg gets his “Strongbow”. Shoots an armored dummy and pierces the armor. “We need a lot more of these”


Scene 4

Survey team is coming up with failure. They are on the verge of giving up. They have found a non-optimal site and are checking the foundational stone. This causes a mudslide, which throws Celeborn into a crevasse.


Act 4


Scene 1

Sauron’s encounter with Shelob. He creates barrier the spiders cannot pass. Negotiates for their aid. Promises land rich with life.


Scene 2

Dwarves rescue Celeborn. They bring light into the hole and realize that the cave goes much deeper into the hillside. Thus, they begin to discover and explore the caves of Menegroth


Scene 3

Opening of Menegroth. Luthien and Daeron perform, banishing the darkness as they move from chamber to chamber. Dwarves paid handsomely, though it is made clear that there is still much work to do in the excavation.




Tag

Halbarad speaks to Hamilcar about Estel and how his destiny is not yet built. Hamilcar is infuriated, thinking that Estel went behind his back.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Petty dwarves will be introduced in Season 4 during the construction of Nargothrond.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Nope. It strained credulity that the Sindar - who live in Doriath - would not have already known of their existence. And kicking them out of two cave systems to be taken over by elves seemed redundant. And so, we are saving them for Nargothrond. We are introducing the dwarves in this Season.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
OK, I successfully listened to the whole session and expanded on your notes!
My few suggestions for additions are in purple.



Season 3 Episode 5: Menegroth
Protagonist: primary protagonist: Celeborn, secondary protagonist: Norn
First appearances: Gamil-Brôg, Shelob and her siblings
Last appearances: N/A

Summary: Learning of the danger coming, the Grey Elves are helped by the Dwarves to prepare to defend themselves. Arms, armor, and the beginning of Menegroth. Sauron begins forging an alliance of a different kind with the giant spiders.
Theme: Home -- having a home and what it means


Frame Teaser - Estel with Elladan, Elrohir, and the Dúnedain on the road towards the Breelands. Winter has begun to set in with the first snow. Wolves are heard howling in the distance, but they don’t discuss it. Estel complains about rough life on the road, and puts his foot in it asking why Dúnedain don’t have a proper home. Elladan and Elrohir chide him, but comment upon how unnaturally early the winter is.


Act I
Scene 1. Doriath - Celeborn travelling, returns to Thingol’s travelling court after long journeying through the north, glad to be home. He comes before Thingol to give him news of what is going on out in the world. Thingol’s inner circle [include Galadhon as an extra] are in attendance, along with Norn – they’re in public, outdoors. Debriefing montage where we see Celeborn and his companions [including Galathil?]:
  • journeying through the non-Dungortheb valley and non-scary Ered Gorgoroth
  • he spies out Thangorodrim from afar, makes his way east
  • from Himring he sees the remains of a destroyed Elvish village
  • he catches sight of Boldog’s huge army, and the wake of destruction they leave behind
Beleg adds that when he saw the Orcs there were far fewer. Norn is increasingly uncomfortable, but doesn’t voice his concerns yet.

Scene 2. Doriath - The Sindar are discussing the news brought in by Celeborn in tones ranging from concern to panic. Lúthien hears this as she moves amongst the people, and goes to speak to Melian in private, expressing a feeling of powerlessness. Melian reassures her, telling her she is anything but powerless. Lúthien’s responsibility is to be a leader and give the people what they need: hope.

Scene 3. Doriath - Celeborn meets Norn (and his entourage?) while they’re preparing to leave. Norn is concerned for his new friends and wants them to flee as well. He doesn’t want to watch them get slaughtered because they are so unprepared, and doesn’t think there’s anything he can do to help them. They live outdoors and have stone weapons, no armor, and no battle experience. Celeborn convinces Norn that with the Dwarves’ help, the Grey Elves can resist the enemy. The Elves can pay for their help.

Scene 4. Northern Ered Luin - Sauron and Thuringwethil arrive in spidertown, in a nearly-lifeless wasteland. Unlike in Melkor’s encounter with Ungoliant, the starving spiders aren’t interested in talking. They ravenously attack the two newcomers and Thuringwethil is bitten. [Maybe she kills a spider or two, though?] Sauron manages to fly them both off to safety.


Act II
Scene 1. Frame - Estel entertaining younger kids with the story of the building of Menegroth. [He sets the overview of the Dwarves and Elves working together to delve a defensive place for the Sindar, and the beauty of Menegroth.] Hamilcar and some other youths look on from just within earshot, though their sneers indicate they are “too cool” to listen. The younger kids, Hamilcar’s younger siblings among them, admire Estel’s storytelling.

Scene 2. Doriath - Elves and Dwarves have gotten preparations underway. Telchar and her master Gamil-Brôg arrive from Nogrod, and are met by Norn and Celeborn. The Firebeards wants to learn some things about her buyers before she begins. Gamil-Brôg shows disapproval for the Elves’ “primitive” stone age weapons, and thinks of bows only as hunting weapons, not something for the battlefield. Telchar is more hopeful this can work – she suggests some improvements on the theme. They will need shields in order for their spears to be effective. Their bows will need to be larger and more powerful, and their arrowheads more penetrating – she starts thinking out loud of ways a steel arrowhead could be designed to penetrate armor.

Scene 3. Doriath - Lúthien and Daeron work on the panic problem. The conversation is half philosophical, half practical – what can they do to prevent the Sindar from being ruled by fear? Daeron feels like he should be helping more practically, preparing for war like the rest. Lúthien assures him there is another way they can help. She demonstrates the power of elfsong, [perhaps reviving a wilting flower]. She sings of protection, and hedges grow. Daeron tries it and his effects aren’t as dramatic, but Lúthien points out that his doesn’t have to be as great as her – he lifts the heart as well. [Daeron’s music is still amazing, but has less visibly magical effect on the landscape.]

Scene 4. Doriath - Surveying team in search of a place to fortify for the Elves. [The Elves expect they’ll build their fort above-ground.] Norn and Celeborn are following the River Esgalduin. Norn describes what he is looking for: a hill on a bight in the river, with water on three sides and hopefully a drop-off, where a structure can focus its defenses on one approach. Celeborn can’t think of any perfect place and doesn’t fully understand the concept, but will try to help them find somewhere.


Act III
Scene 1. Frame - Hamilcar and his friends mock Estel as “a better nursmaid than a fighter.” Estel reacts angrily, berates them using concepts and metaphors they aren’t privy to. He insults them but they can’t quite figure out in what way. Elladan and Elrohir walk by and call him out on this. [In the background it’s snowing.]

Scene 2. Sauron and Thuringwethil. Sauron is tending to Thuringwethil. Her spider bite is poisoned with venom so deadly it weakens even Thuringwethil. She thinks this is a lost cause, these savage beast are no use to Angband. Sauron comes up with a plan.

Scene 3. Doriath arming “montage” - Coats of mail, helms, shields, metal axes and daggers for Beleg and Mablung and some other Elves. Telchar has just invented war-bows and armor-piercing bodkin points. Beleg gets his “Strongbow” Belthronding (made of black yew wood by the Elves). He shoots an armored dummy and pierces the armor. “We need a lot more of these.” The Firebeards of Nogrod are practical - want to know what they’ll be paid to arm thousands of Elves.

Scene 4. Doriath near River Esgalduin – After a long search, the survey team is coming up with failure. They are on the verge of giving up. They have found a non-optimal site without a steep enough approach. The Dwarves are at the high point checking the bedrock to determine if it would be a decent foundation. This causes a mudslide or rockslide, which knocks Celeborn into a crevasse.


Act IV
Scene 1. Northern Ered Luin – Sauron returns to spidertown, and encounters Shelob and her siblings. He creates a barrier the spiders cannot pass. He negotiates for their aid. Recognizing that their frustration is starvation, he promises land rich with tasty life in return for alliance. He talks about how lovely it would be to live in a lush, beautiful forest full of life, and how sad it must be to live in a dry wasteland with nothing but thorns.

Scene 2. Doriath - Dwarves rescue Celeborn. They bring their lanterns into the hole. At first they’re concerned that Celeborn is alright and very apologetic about causing the mudslide. Then they look up and realize that the cave has no back wall. They call the other Dwarves down into the hole and they all become more and more excited as they seen the cave goes much deeper into the hillside. Thus, they begin to discover and explore the caves of Menegroth.

Scene 3. Doriath - Opening of Menegroth. Lúthien and Daeron perform, banishing the darkness as they move from chamber to chamber. Daeron’s songs fills each chamber wholly with light from wall to wall. The Dwarves from both cities are paid handsomely with chests of pearls and other goods, though it is made clear that there is still much work to do in the excavation and development.


Frame Tag – At dinner, Halbarad speaks aside to Hamilcar about Estel and how his destiny is not yet forged. Hamilcar should be patient and set a good example, not belittle somebody for what he has not learned yet. Don’t embarrass Halbard in front of guests. Hamilcar can see Estel the whole time. He is infuriated, thinking that Estel went behind his back as a tattle-tale. [Actually, Elladan and Elrohir did.]
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
@Faelivrin, I have to say, you've done a great job organizing and filling in some of the empty spaces here. My only objection is specifying the "delving of Menegroth" and the Elves and Dwarves working together on it as early in the episode as it is. Obviously, a canny viewer can predict that this is where things are going, but it does kind of spoil the anticipation a bit. I might try to leave the verbiage a bit more vague when writing the actual dialogue.

I think this outline is a good place to call attention to the use of Celeborn's family as background characters, as it will give us a chance to see what the hosts think of it before we do some work integrating them further. Essentially, I want to get some input from them before we use them in a story in S04 and risk having to overhaul a script. Fair enough?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Thanks! :)

That makes sense. I'll leave it to you or Marie to figure out what Estel can say without spoilers.

Though I can't help feeling a bit of worry whenever you and Marie try to show our ideas to the Hosts...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
My current concern with this episode outline is that in Act 4 we move very quickly from discovering Menegroth, to opening it up with light. I realize we want to have the scene with Sauron and the spiders first, to break up the fall of Celeborn and the rescue of Celeborn, but shouldn't there be...something...between scenes 14 and 15? Any suggestions?

Also, it makes sense to me to bring in Celeborn's relatives in an episode in which Celeborn is the protagonist, so I agree that here is the right place to suggest the 'glorified extra' status of his potential brother/father. We'll see what the Hosts have to say about them.


Season 3 Episode 5: Menegroth

Protagonist: Celeborn, (secondary protagonist: Norn)
Introductions: Gamil-Brôg, Shelob and her siblings, [Celeborn's relatives]
Final appearances: N/A
Characters: Celeborn, Thingol, Melian, Lúthien, Daeron, Norn, Mairon/Sauron, Thuringwethil, Shelob, Telchar, Gamil Brôg; Frame: Estel, Elladan, Elrohir, Hamilcar, Halbarad

Summary: Learning of the danger coming, the Grey Elves are helped by the Dwarves to prepare to defend themselves. Arms, armor, and the beginning of Menegroth. Sauron begins forging an alliance of a different kind with the giant spiders.
Theme: Overcoming fear in the face of a threat
Conflict: The Sindar are woefully ill-equipped and ill-prepared to successfully face an attacking orc army.
Primary Storyline: Doriath preparing for war

Frame Teaser - Estel with Elladan, Elrohir, and the Dúnedain on the road towards the Breelands. Winter has begun to set in with the first snow. Wolves are heard howling in the distance, but they don’t discuss it. Estel complains about rough life on the road, and puts his foot in it asking why the Dúnedain don’t have a proper home. Elladan and Elrohir chide him, but comment upon how unnaturally early the winter is.

Act I

Scene 1. Doriath - Celeborn reports on the situation in the north to Thingol. He has been travelling a long time, and returns to Thingol’s travelling court, glad to be home. He comes before Thingol to give him news of what is going on out in the world. Thingol’s inner circle [include Galadhon as an extra] are in attendance, along with Norn – they’re in public, outdoors. Debriefing montage where we see Celeborn and his companions [including Galathil?]:
  • journeying through the non-Dungortheb valley and non-scary Ered Gorgoroth
  • he spies out Thangorodrim from afar, makes his way east
  • from Himring he sees the remains of a destroyed Elvish village
  • he catches sight of Boldog’s huge army, and the wake of destruction they leave behind
Beleg adds that when he saw the Orcs there were far fewer. Norn is increasingly uncomfortable, but doesn’t voice his concerns yet.

Scene 2. Doriath - Lúthien seeks to address the growing unease of her people. The Sindar are discussing the news brought in by Celeborn in tones ranging from concern to panic. Lúthien hears this as she moves amongst the people, and goes to speak to Melian in private, expressing a feeling of powerlessness. Melian reassures her, telling her she is anything but powerless. Lúthien’s responsibility is to be a leader and give the people what they need: hope.

Scene 3. Doriath - Norn reveals his concerns about the coming orc threat to Celeborn. Celeborn meets Norn (and his entourage?) while they’re preparing to leave. Norn is concerned for his new friends and wants them to flee as well. He doesn’t want to watch them get slaughtered because they are so unprepared, and doesn’t think there’s anything he can do to help them. They live outdoors and have stone weapons, no armor, and no battle experience. Celeborn convinces Norn that with the Dwarves’ help, the Grey Elves can resist the enemy. The Elves can pay for their help.

Scene 4. Northern Ered Luin - Sauron and Thuringwethil encounter dangerous spiders in the barren wastes north of Ered Luin. They arrive in a nearly-lifeless wasteland. Unlike in Melkor’s encounter with Ungoliant, the starving spiders aren’t interested in talking. They ravenously attack the two newcomers and Thuringwethil is bitten. [Maybe she kills a spider or two, though?] Sauron manages to fly them both off to safety.


Act II

Scene 5. Frame - Estel entertains younger kids with the story of the building of Menegroth. He has gathered a group of youngsters with tales of far away places from long ago. He mentions the Dwarves and the safety and the beauty of Menegroth. [Play coy with the details - don’t give away that it’s an underground cave.] Hamilcar and some other young men look on from just within earshot, though their sneers indicate they are “too cool” to listen. The younger kids, Hamilcar’s younger siblings among them, admire Estel’s storytelling.

Scene 6. Doriath - The Dwarves are not impressed by the Elves' current weapon supply, but get preparations for war underway. Telchar and her master Gamil-Brôg arrive from Nogrod, and are met by Norn and Celeborn. The Firebeards want to learn some things about their buyers before they begin. Gamil-Brôg shows disapproval for the Elves’ “primitive” stone age weapons, and thinks of bows only as hunting weapons, not something for the battlefield. Telchar is more hopeful this can work – she suggests some improvements on the theme. They will need shields in order for their spears to be effective. Their bows will need to be larger and more powerful, and their arrowheads more penetrating – she starts thinking out loud of ways a steel arrowhead could be designed to penetrate armor.

Scene 7. Doriath - Lúthien and Daeron address the rising panic of their people and their own unique role in allaying those fears. Encouraged by her talk with Melian, Lúthien seeks out her friend Daeron to discuss what they can do. The conversation is half philosophical, half practical – what can they do to prevent the Sindar from being ruled by fear? Daeron feels like he should be helping more practically, preparing for war like the rest. Lúthien assures him there is another way they can help. She demonstrates the power of elfsong, [perhaps reviving a wilting flower]. She sings of protection, and hedges grow. Daeron tries it and his effects aren’t as dramatic, but Lúthien points out that his doesn’t have to be as great as her – he lifts the heart as well. [Daeron’s music is still amazing, but has less visibly magical effect on the landscape.]

Scene 8. Doriath - A dwarven surveying team searches for a suitable place for the Elves to fortify. The Elves expect they’ll build their stronghold above-ground, thinking back to Cuiviénen for examples. Norn and Celeborn are following the River Esgalduin. Norn describes what he is looking for: a hill on a bight in the river, with water on three sides and hopefully a drop-off, where a structure can focus its defenses on one approach. Celeborn can’t think of any perfect place and doesn’t fully understand the concept, but will try to help them find somewhere that will be suitable.


Act III

Scene 9.
Frame - Hamilcar and his friends mock Estel as “a better nursmaid than a fighter.” Estel reacts angrily, berates them using concepts and metaphors they aren’t privy to. He insults them but they can’t quite figure out in what way. Elladan and Elrohir walk by and call him out on this. [In the background, it’s snowing.]

Scene 10. North of Ered Luin - Sauron and Thuringwethil regroup. Sauron is tending to Thuringwethil. Her spider bite is poisoned with venom so deadly it weakens even Thuringwethil. She thinks this is a lost cause; these savage beast are no use to Angband. Sauron comes up with a plan.

Scene 11. Doriath - An arming montage. Coats of mail, helms, shields, metal axes and daggers for Beleg and Mablung and some other Elves. Telchar has just invented war-bows and armor-piercing bodkin points. Beleg gets his "Strongbow” Belthronding (made of black yew wood by the Elves). He shoots an armored dummy and pierces the armor. “We need a lot more of these.” The Firebeards of Nogrod are practical; they want to know what they’ll be paid to arm thousands of Elves.

Scene 12. Doriath near River Esgalduin – The survey team is unable to find a suitable location for a fortress. After a long search, the survey team is coming up with failure. They are on the verge of giving up. They have found a non-optimal site without a steep enough approach. The Dwarves are at the high point checking the bedrock to determine if it would be a decent foundation. This causes a mudslide or rockslide, which knocks Celeborn into a crevasse.


Act IV

Scene 13.
Northern Ered Luin – Sauron returns to the spider’s domain with a plan to win over Shelob and her siblings. He creates a barrier the spiders cannot pass. He negotiates for their aid. Recognizing that their frustration is starvation, he promises land rich with tasty life in return for alliance. He talks about how lovely it would be to live in a lush, beautiful forest full of life, and how sad it must be to live in a dry wasteland with nothing but thorns.

Scene 14.
Doriath - The discovery of the site of Menegroth. The Dwarves rescue Celeborn. They bring their lanterns into the hole. At first they’re concerned that Celeborn is alright and very apologetic about causing the mudslide. Then they look up and realize that the cave has no back wall. They call the other Dwarves down into the hole and they all become more and more excited as they see the cave goes much deeper into the hillside. Thus, they begin to discover and explore the caves of Menegroth.

Scene 15. Doriath - The opening of Menegroth. Lúthien and Daeron perform, banishing the darkness as they move from chamber to chamber. Daeron’s songs fills each chamber wholly with light from wall to wall. The Dwarves from both cities are paid handsomely with chests of pearls and other goods, though it is made clear that there is still much work to do in the excavation and development.

Frame Tag – At dinner, Halbarad speaks aside to Hamilcar about Estel and how his destiny is not yet forged. Hamilcar should be patient and set a good example, not belittle somebody for what he has not learned yet. Don’t embarrass Halbarad in front of guests. Hamilcar can see Estel the whole time. He is infuriated, thinking that Estel went behind his back as a tattle-tale. [Actually, Elladan and Elrohir did.]
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Yay!

I see the name "spidertown" didn't make the cut. That's probably for the best. :p

I don't have any ideas for Scene 14.5. But with my perfectionist proofreading hat on I would like to point out a typo and some inconsistent capitalization.
They call the other Dwarves down into the hole and they all become more and more excited as they seen the cave goes much deeper into the hillside.
"seen" should be "see" (this was my typo)

The dwarves are not impressed by the elves' current weapon supply, but get preparations for war underway.
The capitalizations of "dwarves" and "elves" here aren't consistent with the rest of the outline. I don't know which is more correct or if both are, only that I'd prefer to be consistent.
 
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