S03E07 Script Discussion


Well-Known Member
I'm watching the Ep 1 podcast right now and the discussion of Finwe's funeral made me realise... that rushing off to Middle-earth to avenge him is, in a way, kind of an odd decision. Yes, he was murdered and it's awful and evil and it's understandable to want to avenge one's father. But... as far as his children know, he'll be reincarnated. If they leave they can never see him again, and he'll be pretty darn lonely when he comes back to life. If they return to Valinor now, they can actually welcome their father back. Which he may appreciate more than vengeance.

I think that Finarfin should bring this up in his debate with Fingolfin.

In Feanor's mind, a dead parent is a totally permanent thing because the Valar declared that Miriel could never return, once Finwe remarried. He also has no faith in the Valar, so them reincarnating somebody may not even occur to him. But Feanor's reaction is abnormal, for an elf. His half-siblings wouldn't feel that way. Fingolfin and Irime want revenge more. But... maybe Finarfin and Findis would rather actually see their father again, alive.

It turned out that Finwe chose to stay in Mandos until the end of Time. But his children don't know that and he hasn't decided yet.
Last edited:


Well-Known Member
I just realized that we didn't include Finarfin giving his ring to Finrod.

Since we decided Finarfin does not condone his children going on... how do we work that with his giving the ring?


Staff member
The Ring of Barahir? That could have its origins in Middle Earth, or could have been gifted to Finrod long before they left Valinor. Any reason he would have to pass it on when they part?


Staff member
No, made in Valinor makes sense.

The Lay of Leithian makes it explicit that it was the symbol of Felagund's father. And of course the published Silmarillion informs us that Finrod took more treasures out of Valinor than others among the exiles.

I guess I see no reason for it not to have been some sort of 'coming of age' gift from his father, and thus a ring we've always seen on Finrod and associate with him, rather than something his father would give him when they part? But...if we are emphasizing the passing of the torch from Finarfin to Finrod as the leader of their people...then perhaps there would be some way to hand over the ring now.

But I agree with you that Finarfin never gives up his 'the right thing to do is to come with me' stance, and thus would not condone/give his blessing to his children's rebellious choices.

Perhaps Finrod can be fiddling with the ring as he's mulling over his own choice, and he can give voice to the 'our people who are going on will need a leader' idea, using the ring as a reminder that he inherited the responsibility from his father. So, we can have the two of them discuss that, without Finarfin making any gesture that could be construed as actively passing a torch.


Well-Known Member
As with the "star of Feanor" on the Doors of Durin, I wonder how this symbol of Finarfin fits within the framework later established for Eldarin heraldry. The Noldor supposedly made up heraldry when they started arming themselves during their unrest*. Did Finarfin's symbol of the two serpents predate that, for some reason? Or is it necessary to make the serpents Finrod's personal symbol, instead of Finarfin's, to reconcile it with the heraldry such as my avatar? If Finrod had any personal symbol surely he would have used it in Beleriand (as the head of his House in Middle-earth) before he met Men, so the torch-and-harp charge presumably isn't his original symbol.

* And if the Noldor didn't have heraldry before their unrest, why do the Sindar and even Melian use the same heraldic system? Did they adopt it from the Noldor, and if so why would Thingol, Melian, and Luthien do so? Maybe it is more likely that Elwe, Olwe, Finwe, Ingwe, and Ingwe's wife each had a sign during the Great March, and Melian and Luthien got signs too, but the sons of kings didn't have signs of their own until the Noldorin princes decided they all needed personal symbols for their feud.


Well-Known Member
So, I have time tonight and tomorrow to watch the scripting session videos and try to add more details into this outline, if you all would like me to do so. Just offering in case it's still wanted.


Staff member
Sure, sounds good. I've made it through the first three; haven't gotten much further than that.


Well-Known Member
I finished the video! So, this is my best attempt to flesh out the outline with what I heard, and what's on this thread -- fortunately I can mostly guess what I was thinking, since I can barely hear myself. If I misunderstand what one of you two said in the video, it's not on purpose. I am sorry in advance if I mis-hear anything you said.

Note: In whichever previous episode Galdor sets out from Eglarest, it should be mentioned/name-dropped that he is going to Brithombar, and why.

Season 3 Episode 7: The Doom of Mandos
Protagonist: Noldor: Finarfin; Sindar: Círdan
First appearances: n/a
Last appearances: no named characters

Summary: ??
Theme: ??

Frame teaser - Dúnedain and the sons of Elrond are planning out a wolf-hunt. There is concern about the wolves being seen in places they aren’t usually seen, and the unusually early winter. Concern they may be wargs, not natural wolves. There’s a rumor that they’re being led by an ancient gaur (werewolf) from long ago. Halbarad wants to send Hamilcar home to safety; Elrohir says the same of Estel. The teenagers want to participate instead, but are told no. Shot of wolves (or wargs) on a hill overlooking the Dúnadan camp.

Act I
Scene 1.
Coast of Beleriand - Army of Gaurhoth (werewolves) and wolves running along a ridge of hills, leaving behind Brithombar, which is in flames. Galdor is on his ship with a small fleet of ships off the coast. He meets the Brithombar refugees fleeing in their ships, and learns that haven was assaulted by Gaurhoth. The Falathrim turn to sail towards Eglarest to warn them of the danger, but fear they will not reach the haven before the wolves do.

Scene 2. Ships at Araman - Fëanor and Fingolfin are arguing about the Kinslaying in a cabin on Fëanor’s ship. Finarfin walks into the middle of the meeting. Fingon and Finrod are on the deck behind him, not speaking to Maedhros who is also there.
  • Fingolfin is angry about the Kinslaying, but still intends to go forward. He said he would follow Fëanor, but he wants Fëanor to stop making decisions without including Fingolfin.
  • Fëanor declares he is the King now and Fingolfin just has to obey him.
  • Fëanor: “You still think you are King of the Noldor.” Fingolfin doesn’t deny it.
  • Finarfin says it doesn’t matter who is King, which Fëanor misinterprets as Finarfin claiming the Kingship for himself.
  • Finarfin clarifies that what really matters now is that the Noldor did something wrong: “We are leading our people to destruction. We must return and face the justice of the Valar.”
Scene 3. (Plot Point) - Fingolfin goes outside to the deck of the ship, in full view of the Noldor gathered on the shore and on nearby ships. He leaps full onto the rail near the folded wing, and gives a speech denouncing the Kinslaying, pointedly decrying actions and decisions and everyone involved, without naming names (but also taking responsibility for his part and publically repenting). [Shot of Fëanor’s reaction in lamplight - he’s furious.] Fingolfin wedges the tip of his sword into a wing-pulley and snaps the blade, crying aloud that he will never again draw a blade against his kin. A shard falls into the sea, leaving the hilt-shard and the lower part of the blade on the deck. Finarfin, watching, tells Finrod that he thinks Fingolfin will turn back now.

Scene 4. (Plot Point) Eglarest - Peace still reigns, but Círdan knows there are Orcs out there. Beleg and Celeborn arrive with a few Iathrim rangers and a too-small shipment of weapons and mail (maybe 50 hauberks and 100 warbows). Beleg is disappointed to find Eglarest is not fortified at all. Illustrate their different ways of thinking – Beleg wants to defend the town, but the Falathrim don’t. The buildings are less important to them than their lives and their ships, so they intend to simply flee. Beleg points out that they don’t have enough ships to evacuate the population. Círdan explains that Galdor has a fairly large part of the fleet out at sea, but he will return.

Act II
Scene 5.
Araman - Finarfin family meeting. Finarfin explains that he wants to bring the Noldor back to Valinor, as many of them as he can save. Galadriel and her brothers seem reluctant to do so, especially Galadriel, but the conflict is not resolved. Finarfin asks Finrod, “What of your betrothed?” Finrod is conflicted, thoughtfully considering all his father has said.

Scene 6. Ships near Eglarest - The ships race towards Eglarest. They worry they may not reach the haven before the Gaurhoth do. Dark shapes pass in front of the stars (or a shadow passes across the deck). Bat-vampires suddenly drop down out of the black sky into the lantern-light. They threaten and harass the startled Falathrim, testing out their defenses. One snatches a child off the deck and flings them into the sea. [Perhaps another envelops an elf in its wings and bites their face.] The Elves manage to shoot down one or two Vampires, and the rest fly away. The Elves don’t know which direction the Vampires came from or where they are going – did the monsters already attack Eglarest? Are the ships too late?

Scene 7. Ships at Araman - The three Noldorin leaders meet on Fëanor’s to discuss how to go forward. (maybe also present: Maedhros, Curufin, Fingon)
  • There is “no way North” by dry land, and Araman is very desolate here. They can’t all fit on the ships at once.
  • To prepare for travel at sea, the Fëanorians discuss methods of communication at sea involving the blue lamps, to relay orders for a coordinated movement between all the ships.
  • The concept of a ‘ferry service’ is implied (but not promised...) in which the Fëanorians would cross first. Fingolfin gets Feanor to an "agree" that Turgon and some of his household be allowed on board in the first wave.
  • Fëanor makes a point to “involve Fingolfin” in this, mockingly since Fëanor makes all the decisions himself. It is obvious that nothing short of armed conflict will change the possession of the ships.
  • Finarfin gives Fingolfin pointed looks throughout, implying that putting up with this is madness, but to no avail.
  • Curufin picks up on something odd about the plan and makes suspicious eye contact with Fëanor.

Scene 8.
Araman - Finrod and Galadriel have a heart to heart. She wants to go on, he is unsure. She sounds somewhat immature and hot-headed.
  • Galadriel: “I have never known you to be a coward.”
  • Finrod: “You agree with Fëanor?”
  • Galadriel: “No. But he should not rule our people.” She wants to thwart Fëanor.
  • Finrod listens to her, but has not yet made up his mind. He is not convinced that they have the ability to stop Fëanor from doing anything.
  • Galadriel gets the last word. “Would you be content to live in Valinor for all of time, and build no place of your own?”
(I apparently forgot this was in this episode, and worked much of this conversation into Episode 1 Scene 7 ... oops... Sorry. I guess one of the two conversations should be reworded. I'm kinda thinking this episode is the better time for "Since when are you a fan of Feanor?" and "Can you deny that you have dreamed of far lands, too?")

Scene 9. Ships near Araman - Amrod and Amras talk. Amrod brings up how Nerdanel used to be able to help father calm down, when they were younger. Not like later when she would try to persuade him to be more reasonable, but kept having to give up on changing his mind. And he’s been very odd lately; always angry. They bring a new perspective to Nerdanel and Fëanor’s relationship. Amras says he can’t think about Nerdanel, as they will never see her again. Amrod takes him to his ship, and reveals that he has found a palantír aboard and is keeping it secret. They can still speak to their mother after all.

Scene 10. Araman - Finarfin makes a final play for Fingolfin’s soul: “You see that Fëanor is mad. He’s a danger to our people. We can’t afford the blood his leadership will cost. He has already done great evil. He will do more, and we cannot stop him.” Finarfin wants to return. Fingolfin is conflicted about keeping his word before Manwë’s throne. Finarfin insists there are worse things than breaking your word. Fingolfin is less and less willing to tolerate Fëanor’s leadership, but not yet ready to either take the Kingship or turn back. And he still wants to avenge his father. Finarfin points out that what Finwë would probably appreciate more is to be welcomed back by his family when the Valar reincarnate him -- not to return and find that all his family have left him, never to return.

Scene 11. Araman - Námo appears and pronounces the Doom of Mandos [as in the book].

Act IV
Scene 12a.
Eglarest - Assault on havens. Most of the Falathrim are unarmored and armed only with stone weapons, but there isn’t time for more preparation. Beleg is saying in Círdan’s house.
  • The first few wolves creep through the shadows in the streets and all start howling at once, starting a panic. Beleg hastily organizes resistance as the rearguard with archers, while Círdan organizes evacuation, blows a conch-horn to cut through the howling and panicked screaming.
  • The battle is very one-sided – the Elves continually fall back and many die, some are on rooftops shooting but then have to leap to other roofs as each building is overrun. Few wolves are slain – at least half of them leave bodies, half of them [the Gaurhoth] dissolve into foul smoke.
  • Wolves push the rearguard all the way back to the pier where the remaining survivors are trapped, unable to board the ships which are already filled to capacity.
  • Several wolves are suddenly slain by arrow shot from Galdor’s arriving fleet. The last survivors board his ships and escape. Círdan and Beleg are the last on board.
Scene 12b. Once the fleet has pulled to a safe distance from the slavering wolves, Círdan gives the order to fire the town, to the surprise of Beleg. They use fire arrows. [Hoping some wolves will die, and the slain Elves will be cremated instead of eaten.]

Scene 13a. Araman - Vehement argument on the shore
  • Initial Noldorin reaction: general shock and dismay.
  • Fëanor’s retort to Mandos [as in the book].
  • All seven sons of Fëanor cheer their father’s retort: To Middle-earth!
  • Finarfin lays out his case for returning to face justice. The Valar have condemned this Rebellion and gave Fingolfin everything he needs to take back his word before Manwë – even ordering him to do it. He needs to take responsibility, take command, and lead his people back to the Valar.
  • People of Fingolfin’s host cursing of the name of Fëanor.
  • Turgon [and Fingon?] insists that Fingolfin must take the Kingship, stay or go. The Valar chose Fingolfin as leader. Fingon, Aredhel, and Finarfin’s children all express or imply agreement.
  • Finarfin looks to Finrod, but Finrod will not go back, despite his love for the Valar. He will be Finarfin to their people who will not turn back. Finarfin will be the Noldor to the Valar. [Finrod finger his ring while they talk.] Finrod points out that if he truly would represent his father, he should return with him and lead them back, but Finrod replies that if they won’t listen to Finarfin, why would they listen to Finrod? Finarfin looks to his other children and grandson, but they shake their heads. Finarfin does not condone their decisions, but cannot persuade them. He’s heartbroken.
  • All those who will not turn back now look to Fingolfin. He is proud and very conflicted, he increasingly wishes he could claim the Kingship. “Perhaps the Valar are right that they are all being led to ruin. But I will not betray my word, nor will I encourage any others to do so. And I will not return to Valinor with the blood of my kin on my hands.”
Scene 13b. Finarfin’s relatively small cadre leaves, at most a 1/10 of the host. [publically]

Scene 14. Galdor’s ship outside Eglarest - Planning discussion. Círdan will sail north with Celeborn and a couple ships, to scout the situation and see if any scattered Elves need rescue. Galdor will take the vast majority of the Falathrim refugees south towards the Isle of Balar. Beleg will go with them, so that he can bring word to Thingol.

Scene 15. Araman - Fingolfin’s folk discover that the Fëanorians have taken away all the ships and left. Fingolfin feels abandoned by both his brothers. Turgon and Fingon [and Aredhel, and Finarfin’s children?] urge him to take the Kingship now, and Fingolfin no longer says no – he is ready to do so now. [He will do so next Ep.]

Tag (1) – Thuringwethil flies to Boldog’s filthy orc encampment in the hills of Maglor’s Gap. She brings news, giving him the general direction to find the Green Elves. She publically berates Boldog (who is larger than her) for sitting on his hands hundreds of miles away from his prey. After she flies away to meet Sauron, the humiliated Boldog grabs the nearest orc and snaps its neck in a fit of rage, for no other reason.

Frame Tag (2) – Estel and the twins converse about the Doom of Mandos, and the bad consequences of failing to prudently take advice and retreat from a bad situation. Finarfin made the correct decision to withdraw, which is what Estel should do. Estel points out that those consequences are responsible for the twins’ existence. They agree that sometimes ill deeds were good to have been, but ill deeds and decisions are still ill, and bad consequences do follow.

Later, Estel and Hamilcar meet up by night on the edge of camp, both with packs. Awkward silence. “I still don’t like you, but if they’re going to send us home like children, I’d rather take my chances out there.”

Note for next episode: we can show some of the grumbling against Fëanor in the Fingolfin host on shore, before Fëanor abandons them.

Question in general: Is it OK to have Galadhon and Galathil (Celeborn's father and brother) shown as non-speaking extras in some Beleriand scenes in this season (and Galadhon in Season 2)? I suggested that in one episode, and MithLuin took the suggestion out. This was another episode where I was going to suggest Celeborn's brother comes with him and Beleg.
Last edited:

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Quick note for Scene 7: We had discussed here on the thread, after the session, having Fingolfin manage to get Feanor to agree to let Turgon's household onto the ships. This is the reason why Feanor leaves in secret. Otherwise, there is not a need for him to do so.
Last edited:

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Question in general: Is it OK to have Galadhon and Galathil (Celeborn's father and brother) shown as non-speaking extras in some Beleriand scenes in this season (and Galadhon in Season 2)? I suggested that in one episode, and MithLuin took the suggestion out. This was another episode where I was going to suggest Celeborn's brother comes with him and Beleg.
Firstly, other than the note above, I think this is spot-on perfect.

As to relatives of Celeborn being non-speaking extras in this season, I'm not sure we need to call that out in outlines.


Staff member
I removed the names of anyone who was not being introduced/re-introduced by name in that scene. That is the 'back in Beleriand' intro, so while there can certainly be unnamed extras in the scene, it was important to focus on who the main characters of the scene would be. I consider this similar to Galadriel's brothers being extras in Season 2, and Glorfindel and Ecthelion being extras with the Noldor this season. Yes, they're there, but we're not mentioning them because they aren't actually playing a role onscreen. We can add a relative of Celeborn's to the outlines when he has a role in the scene. That doesn't mean they aren't there as background extras, just that we're not calling them out until/unless we give them an intro.

As a warning, the Hosts have never mentioned these characters, so we would have to bring it up with them when we want to introduce them. Which means, we should have a role in mind for them when we have that conversation.


Well-Known Member
Alright, cool. I didn't know whether "extras we'd like to introduce someday" had to be specifically mentioned, or if it was OK to retroatively say "and this new character was an extra in Season X". I guess I had assumed doing it retroactively would be a problem.

I added the part about Turgon into my post. When I reread the thread I somehow missed that Feanor actually agreed to it.

Should the "understood" ferry service be implied, or would Feanor outright agree to it? It's weird enough for him to agree to let Turgon on board when normally nobody convinces him of anything, so I can't imagine he agreed honestly and then changed his mind. That is, I think he must have pretended to agree to allay Fingolfin's suspicions, and the suspicions of anyone in his following who wouldn't necessarily join in on abandoning the other Noldor if they knew they were doing that.

What's a way Feanor can agree to some of Fingolfin's demands without blunting the mocking way he "includes" Fingolfin?
Last edited: