S03E10 Script Discussion

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Good night everybody. I will edit this with more Acts 3-4 detail once I get a chance to listen to the rest of the discussion. Notes on that part stolen from Nick for now.



Season 3 Episode 10: Dagor-nuin-Giliath
Fëanorians: main protagonist Curufin, side protagonist Celegorm
southeast Beleriand: protagonist ???
First appearances: ??
Last appearances: ??

Summary: ??
Theme: ??



Frame Teaser - Hamilcar returns to camp without Estel, where he finds the older adults are freaking out because Estel’s missing. Halbarad is relieved Hamilcar is OK, but when he finds out Hamilcar was with Estel and left him behind, he gets upset. To some extent he’s angry at Hamilcar, but part of him realizes it wasn’t really Hamilcar’s responsibility to keep Estel safe. But he’s very upset that Estel is missing. Hamilcar is angry that Halbarad is more upset over Estel than his own son. They argue and Hamilcar storms off.


Act 1
Scene 1.
Mithrim - Feanorians are beginning to set up camp. They have a number of armed guards. The sons of Fëanor are all armored and armed.
  • Feanor is in a tent in the center with big banners and many blue lamps. He’s fully armed and armored.
    • looking at a mostly blank map?
    • surveying all that is now his domain?
  • Curufin (not Maedhros) has clearly been delegated to take charge over setting up camp.
  • Curufin tries to use Maglor to get at Maedhros to get him back to being unquestioningly loyal. He talks reasonably and persuades Maglor. But Maglor points out that because Fëanor refuses to speak to Maedhros ever since the ships, there’s only so much Maglor can do until they’re speaking again.
Scene 2. Helkaraxë - Great cold and misery, slogging through the snow and ice. Establishing shots of whole host, and of the horrible terrain and people struggling over it. Focus on Turgon and Elenwë and Idril huddling in a miserable crappy camp/hut. Elenwë is staying hopeful and positive; she’s clearly the light of Turgon’s life.

Scene 3. Mithrim
  • Curufin sees Celegorm off: he and Huan and the cavalry are going out to scout.
  • Amros is off by himself weeping, avoiding his brothers. Curufin wants to go talk to him and Caranthir wants to join in, but Curufin discourages Caranthir.
  • Amros becomes angry when he sees Curufin, and makes an obviously bad excuse to leave (before Curufin says anything). Curufin shows real sympathy, but his attempt to mend fences is calculated and conniving. He really wants to get Amros back in line and unquestioningly loyal. “None of us has lost more than you, so we aren’t expecting you to do the heavy lifting. It’s OK for you to relax and take it easy.”
  • Amros is angry and distrusting. He does not want Curufin’s sympathy or “permission” to mourn, he wants Curufin to admit guilt and remorse, and knows he won’t.
    • Amros doesn’t yell, but he says “Do not speak to me as though all is well between us.”
    • Curufin replies somehow, they argue, Curufin starts ‘speaking for Fëanor’, shows NO remorse.
    • Amros: “You are not father’s spokesman. If I wanted to speak to father I could do so myself. I already heard him. He said Amrod deserved to die! Do you believe that too?!”
    • Curufin doesn’t deny that. He sidesteps, tries to say none of them knew Amrod was there and we had to obey Father, if he wasn’t on the ship he wouldn’t have died. Tries to pretend he thinks it was nobody’s fault.
    • Amros points out that if Maedhros could stand aside they all could have. “Do you really think that if you had all been willing to speak against this madness, Amrod still would have been killed?” (The answer is probably yes, but Amros doesn't realize this.)
  • Amros storms away.
Scene 4. Denethor’s funeral near Ossiriand - Laiquendi are mourning for the dead and especially for Denethor and his close kin. They’re devastated. Elves are angrily asking Norn why didn’t the Dwarves come? Laiquendi are furious. Norn has no idea what happened and can’t answer them at all. Saeros expects he’ll become King since he stepped up to lead during the battle.


Act 2
Scene 5.
East Beleriand - Overhead swooping over landscape following Orc army who carry torches... to reach the Dwarves’ position, which is only 1-2 hours from the Laiquendi. Azaghâl, "Naugladur", and Telchar are present. Cordial interaction between the two Kings through eyes of Telchar and Eöl. Scouts arrive, announcing they’ve found the orc army. The Dwarves don’t know the Elves already fought the Orcs. They say the orc army is so small and pathetic they can kill them without help from the Elves at all! They set up an ambush to attack Boldog’s retreating army.

Scene 6a. Mithrim - Orcs ambush the Fëanorians at Lake Mithrim, before the camp is ordered or fortified.
  • (Gothmog's Orc force is not large enough.)
  • Initially Orcs vs. armed guards, but they also penetrate into every part of the camp.
  • Hideous monsters jumping out of darkness into the blue lantern-light, which makes them look even more hideous, pale, pasty, and greyish. Elves fear these are demons! It’s scary. Orcs kill some unarmed Elves who are working, maybe kill some guards.
  • Curufin (who’s leading the guard) kills an Orc and realizes it’s easy and they’re flesh and blood, not demons at all. He gives a command “Push!” and Elves form a shield formation and knock down a row of Orcs.
Scene 6b. Gothmog is leading from a mountaintop while watching out for a Valarin attack. He smiles at first, from bird’s eye view he sees the Orcs are winning. But it’s the turning point and he sees the Elves start to win and the majority of Orcs give way and then retreat. He loses his smile.

Scene 6c. Noldor slaughtering Orcs. The Fëanorians have been trained, and Ñoldor individually overpower the Orcs. Elves have tactics and armor, both of which work. They feel the battle joy because they’re winning and it feels better to kill Orcs than to kill Elves. But after this they can’t ignore that there’s a difference between killing Orcs and the Kinslaying.

Scene 6d. Gothmog sends a Great Orc lieutenant/messenger to Orcs to pull back and retreat. Gather as many as we can to retreat. But Gothmog is planning to leave behind plenty of Orcs to die. There are more where they came from.

Scene 6e.
Noldor start chasing Orcs into the mountains and slaughtering more.

Scene 7. Cirith Ninniach - Círdan and Celeborn are tracking the Fëanorians on foot. They discuss whether they’re tracking the surviving Teleri from Valinor, or the Orcs who killed them.

Scene 8. Angband - Sauron arrives. It is established that his army will arrive soon. Morgoth receives word that the battle has not gone well, and that Fëanor is here. Morgoth sends out two more Balrogs with troops and orders to capture Fëanor alive.


Act 3
Scene 9.
East Ered Westhrin - Celegorm’s cavalry and scouts sight Sauron’s werewolves on a forced march, they hear wolves howling. There are a lot of werewolves, and Celegorm isn’t certain he has enough Elves to take them. He holds cavalry back for a bit while he and Huan go to scout. They talk and decide to tail the werewolves, but don’t engage right away.

Scene 10. East Beleriand near Sarn Ford - Dwarves ambush Boldog’s retreating army and win. Eöl uses Anglachel in the battle vs. Orcs. Eol is awesome until he almost kills a dwarf in the heat of battle. Telchar Eöl have words afterwards. Telchar is creeped out by Anglachel; Eöl ends his friendship with her.

Scene 11.
Montage: Ñoldor chasing Orcs over the mountains and down into Ard-galen.

Scene 12. Northern Pass of Sirion - Werewolves catch up with Celegorm’s Fëanorians. Ñoldor to slow down and set up opposite the Fen of Serech. Draughluin attempts to go the fen and Celegorm’s cavalry hits them like a ton of bricks. Hounds enter the fen to attack bogged down werewolves and Fëanorian archers finish them off. Huan is awesome.


Act 4
Scene 13.
Southeast Beleriand - Dwarves and Elves meet up. The Dwarves find out about loss of Denethor when the Elves reproach them for not arriving on time. But the Dwarves think they did what they promised to do. Azaghâl offers a substantial wereguild for Denethor to show sympathy and honor because he knows losing a King is a big deal, but the Laiquendi are extremely offended. The Dwarves are offended to have their generous and honorable offer thrown back in their faces. Mablung and Norn both realize this is a cultural faux pas, share an “Oh no” look. Thingol wants to keep the peace, is disturbed by wereguild concept but tries to restrain the Laiquendi.

Scene 14. Ard-galen - Gothmog makes contact with the reinforcing Orc army and two of his lieutenant Balrogs. Receives orders to capture Fëanor alive.

Scene 15. Helcaraxë - More cold and misery. Ice breaks beneath Elenwë and Idril and they fall into freezing water. Turgon dives in several times, rescues Idril and hands her to other Elves on land but can’t reach Elenwë after 2 more tries. He finally has to be physically restrained from continuing to dive in when he’s blue and too weak to swim anymore. Fingolfin restrains him.

Scene 15a. Ard-galen - Pursuit of retreating Orcs across the plain. Fëanorians and Orcs are arrayed against each other across the plain. Fëanor can see the Balrogs on the other side of the army. Fëanor gives an epic speech preceding a charge.
  • Curufin speaks to Maedhros in panic. Maedhros answers that he has no control over what Fëanor does, but father has never failed. Is Curufin going to tell him no?
  • Fëanor doesn’t get an hour ahead of his army, instead he recklessly advances through the second army of Orcs who flee from him in terror instead of fighting him. Fëanor fights like an elf possessed and completely penetrates Orkish lines, but the very few Elves with him all die.
  • Fëanor gets to Gothmog and the Balrogs from Angband on the other side. “Bring your master out to me!” The Balrogs laugh at him. “Oh, you’ll see him.” They attack. At first he does well, evading attacks and even inflicting a minor injury on one. However, their attacks start to make contact, and he gets wounded several times. He takes a stab wound to the lower chest and staggers back a bit. He is wounded but still standing, surrounded by Balrogs.
  • The Orcs fight his sons and the other Elves who are less scary, preventing them from reaching Fëanor, although they can see he's in trouble.
  • Celegorm and cavalry just arrive to the edges of this battle.
Scene 15b. Southeast Beleriand - Laiquendi and Dwarves look like they'll come to blows. Mablung, Norn, etc. physically restrain some of the (non-royal) hotheads on both sides from attacking.

Scene 15c. End on cliffhanger. Intercut shots of:
  • Sons of Fëanor trying to break through the orc lines to get to their father.
  • Dwarves and Laiquendi trying to get to each other.
  • Turgon struggling against his father to dive after his lost wife.
  • Shot of Fëanor’s face when he realizes he has failed.


Frame Tag - Later Hamilcar overhears Halbarad and Elrond’s sons discussing what to do and what are they supposed to tell Elrond. They speak openly about who Estel is. Halbarad assures the twins that he will not let the line of the kings die on his watch. Hamilcar realizes why this is important. The shock makes him realize that his teenage jealousy against Estel was petty and foolish. He either feels that this is his fault, or is afraid his father thinks it’s his fault. He goes off on his own to find Estel.



for later Episodes:
Fëanor dies, fallout.
Argument between Laiquendi and Dwarves resolved
Laiquendi decide not to have another King, Saeros is disappointed he can't become King, and decides to follow Thingol around. His close friends and relatives go with him -- since all are his groupies, their loyalty to him will feed his ego.
Tilion vs. shadow demons on the Helkaraxë, and Aurora, early in the episode.
Turgon says something vengeant/bloodthirsty about Fëanor and sons. Galadriel and Angrod also express desire for revenge against Fëanor.
Beleg returns to Menegroth with his news of cats capturing Elves near Menegroth. Galathil is sent as messenger to Thingol with this news.
Making of the Sun and Moon.
etc.
 
Last edited:

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I know we talked about the Orc host under Gothmog being too small to fight the Noldor without reinforcements. But I'm dead certain that we already wrote that Morgoth specifically ordered Gothmog to attack the Noldor, so wouldn't he be sent with sufficient troops to begin with? I know they all probably underestimate the Noldor, but I still don't get why Morgoth would order Gothmog to attack but only let him bring a small number of Orcs.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I know we talked about the Orc host under Gothmog being too small to fight the Noldor without reinforcements. But I'm dead certain that we already wrote that Morgoth specifically ordered Gothmog to attack the Noldor, so wouldn't he be sent with sufficient troops to begin with? I know they all probably underestimate the Noldor, but I still don't get why Morgoth would order Gothmog to attack but only let him bring a small number of Orcs.
I don't think "small" is a word I would use in this situation. I think the point we are trying to make is that Morgoth does not commit most of his army. He does not consider the Calaquendi to be a credible threat, and this army will already outnumber the Feanorians something like five to one. When it becomes clear that this is insufficient, a larger force is sent out. The second force being larger does not in any way mean that the first is small.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Alright. But he can't have held back any of his army in the end, for the story to say that of all the vast hosts he had prepared, nothing came back but a handful of leaves. That doesn't suggest he had any reserves remaining.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Alright. But he can't have held back any of his army in the end, for the story to say that of all the vast hosts he had prepared, nothing came back but a handful of leaves. That doesn't suggest he had any reserves remaining.
Perhaps, but not necessarily. I'm not sure how that would impact this episode.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Teaser

Hamilcar returns to camp alone. Everyone is freaking out because Estel is missing. Hamilcar gets angry at Halbarad for being more concerned about Estel than about him.


Feanorian


Curufin as Protagonist?


Act 1

Setup of internal conflicts, camp building.


Act 2

Initial shock of battle. Gothmog watches from a mountain above. Orcs are thrown back as soon as the Feanorians are able to organize resistance.


Act 3

Celegorm and Huan drive off an ambush


Act 4

Final confontation between the Feanorians and Angband



Act 1

Elves asking Norn why no dwarves. Mourning Green Elves.


Act 2

We get interaction between the kings of Nogrod and Belegost through Telchar and Eol.


Act 3

Dwarves set upon the orcs


Act 4

Dwarves and elves make contact. Dwarves try to offer a were


A1

S1

Feanorians setting up camp. Curufin talks to Maglor, tries to get him to get Maedhros onboard.


S2


Fingolfin’s host on the Helcaraxe. Focus on Turgon and fam. Elenwe is cheery, despite conditions.



S3

Curufin v Amros


S4

Elves asking Norn why no dwarves. Mourning Green Elves.


A2

S1

We get interaction between the kings of Nogrod and Belegost through Telchar and Eol.


S2

Feanorian camp attacked. Orcs initially penetrate outer defenses and kill some of the unarmed elves who are working on the camp. Gothmog reacts to turning point. Wholesale slaughter of orcs.Gothmog orders retreat, shows lack of concern for abandoning many of his forces.


S3

Cirdan and Celeborn scene. They are now on foot tracking the Noldor, discussing whether they are tracking the survivors of the Teleri or their killers.


S4

Sauron arrives in Angband. It is established that his army will arrive soon. Morgoth receives word that the battle has not gone well, and that Feanor is here. Morgoth sends out two more balrogs with troops and orders to capture Feanor alive.


Act 3

S1

Celegorm and Huan + Cavalry find the werewolves on a forced march. Celgorm and Huan go forward to recon and decide to tail the wolves.


S2

Dwarves mop the floor with the orcish remains. Few (Boldog) escape. Eol being awesome until he almost kills a dwarf in the heat of battle. Telchar Eol have words afterwards.


S3

Noldor Murder Montage.


S4

Wolves catch up with the Feanorians, which causes the Noldor to slow down and set up opposite a swamp. Draughluin attempts to go the swamp and Celegorm’s cavalry hits them like a ton of bricks. Hounds enter the swamp to attack bogged down wolves and Feanorian archers finish them off.


Act 4


Dwarves and elves meet up. Dwarves find out about loss of Denethor. Attempt to make amends by offering substantial weregild for the lost king. Green Elves are offended. Thingol thinks everyone is over-reacting. Mablung and Norn exchange knowing looks.


S2

Gothmog makes contact with the reinforcing army and two of his lieutenant balrogs. Receives orders to capture Feanor.


S3


Helcaraxe fun: Fingolfin’s host crossing moving ice floes. A chunk of ice tips, spilling Elenwe and Idril into the sea. Turgon dives in, rescues Idril and hands her up to other elves. Goes down for Elenwe twice. When he comes back up, someone grabs him from above and pull him out. It is Fingolfin. Turgon is struggling against him.


S3

Final battle time.


Feanorians and Orcs are arrayed against each other across the plain. Feanor can see the balrogs on the other side of the army. Feanorians. Feanor gives epic speech preceding a charge. Curufin speaks to Maedhros in panic over this. Maedhros expresses that he has no control over what Feanor does, but he has never failed. Is Curufin going to tell him no?


Charge happens and is successful. Feanor fights like an elf possessed. The orcs flee before him more than the other elves. He completely penetrates their lines. Faces off against the balrogs. “Bring your master out to me!” Balrogs laugh at him. “Oh, you’ll see him.” They attack him. At first he does well, evading attacks and even inflicting a minor injury on one. However, their attacks start to make contact, and he gets wounded several times. He takes a stab wound to the lower chest and Feanor staggers back a bit.


Intercut sons of Feanor trying to break through the orc lines to get to father, dwarves and green elves trying to get to each other. Turgon struggling against his father to dive after his lost wife. Shot of Feanor’s face when he realizes he has failed.


Tag

Hamilcar overhears E-Brothers and Halbarad discussing Estel and his lineage. Goes off to find Estel on his own.
 
Top