Session 7-06: The Union of Maedhros

[MithLuin]

Edit: Our next session will be on Thursday January 4th at 10 PM Eastern Time, and we will be discussing the Union of Maedhros. Note the change in date from what was originally announced.

We are going to lead up to the war of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad this season, and we are going to need to sort out how that comes to pass. We know the pieces, but now we will need to put it together.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What is the timing between Beren and Lúthien as it stands with other events, such as the death of Galdor? We know the Union of Maedhros is a result of the Quest for the Silmaril (Beren and Lúthien).

 

[MithLuin]

The Quest for the silmail takes place in FA 462-463 in Silm Film, with the wedding of Beren and Lúthien falling at midsummer of 463. The hunt for the wolf and the journey to Mandos happen some time after.

The Dagor Bragollach was in FA 455 and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad will fall in FA 472 (as in Tolkien's chronology in the Annals).

Húrin and Huor's return to Dor-lómin will happen after the events of Season 6, but only just. So, probably about 464. The death of Galdor will be sometime soon after that, leaving Húrin as lord of Dor-lómin.


There will be two major external events that galvanize Maedhros into action. One is the theft of the silmail by Lúthien from Morgoth. The other is the arrival of the Easterlings in East Beleriand.

 

[MithLuin]

One task will be to put the parts of the Union of Maedhros into a coherent order to tell a story:

- Maedhros and Fingon agree to form a union against Morgoth
- Dor-lómin joins the Union
- Brethil joins the Union
- Círdan supports the Union
- Doriath declines strongly; Beleg and Mablung join
- Nargothrond declines; Gwindor joins
- the Easterlings arrive in East Beleriand
- the Dwarves of Belegost join the Union
- Gondolin decides to join

 

[Octoburn]

- Gondolin decides to join

I was thinking about this when the Gondolin stuff was discussed last episode. How does Gondolin even know there's something to join? The simplest option would be to have messages relayed by the Eagles, I suppose. But with no one coming to or leaving Gondolin, how does Turgon know this is even happening, much less when and/or any of the strategy? Húrin, Hour and Handir would have a raport with the eagles, so there's a possibility they pass some information back and forth. It's only after the Nirnaeth that Turgon sends the messengers to the Havens to send ships west, so those messengers aren't really a possibility.

 

[Odola]

I was thinking about this when the Gondolin stuff was discussed last episode. How does Gondolin even know there's something to join? The simplest option would be to have messages relayed by the Eagles, I suppose. But with no one coming to or leaving Gondolin, how does Turgon know this is even happening, much less when and/or any of the strategy? Húrin, Hour and Handir would have a raport with the eagles, so there's a possibility they pass some information back and forth. It's only after the Nirnaeth that Turgon sends the messengers to the Havens to send ships west, so those messengers aren't really a possibility.

Turgon's has to have some secret spies. Of course those are secret so Tuor and Idril and Earendil - those who survive, do not know about them to report of it in stories. But Turgon is a king after all, he has to have his secret service. Beyond that he is a Noldo and has things brought over from Valinor. What news transferring technology/magic he might have is anybody's guess.

 

[Octoburn]

Does he though? I think that would undermine how he treats others in regards to his policy of people leaving Gondolin.

He only allowed his sister to leave with two escorts and only to see her cousins. He didn't allow Eol to leave, which resulted in the death of his sister. Hurin and Huor were only allowed to leave due to Hurin's urgency to defeat Morgoth.

If, with all that, behind closed doors he has spies who he casually lets come and go, I think it very much undermines Turgon's policy.

I feel that using the Eagles in this way is consistent with what's in the story (the Eagles do bring messages to Turgon- about the falls of Nargothrond and Doriath; as well as bringing Fingolfins body to Turgon) so I feel this would undermine something we've already established in the story less than saying "nevermind, he actually had spies who could leave."

 

[Odola]

Does he though? I think that would undermine how he treats others in regards to his policy of people leaving Gondolin.

there are probly few secrest passed aout and he will not draw attention to those by telling anybody where they are, both Aredhel and Eol whould have had to leave via the "official" road in. And Eol would have had no inhibition telling everybody where the entry was once out.
Do not think Eagles would lower themselves to be Turgon's messengers, helping out from time to time - sure, but not to run errands for him.

And he very well can have some "pocket-Silmarils" that he keeps secrets - he is a Noldo after all.

 

[Octoburn]

I'm not suggesting that the Eagles become go-fors for Turgon, just that they (Húrin or Fingon) send a message to Turgon at some point telling him of their plans. No response is even needed. He does come "unlooked for" after all.

I believe that it was discussed in a fairly early season (3 or 4?) whether one of the Noldor would have a Palantir-like device, and it was decided it created more problems than it solved to do that.

 

[Odola]

I'm not suggesting that the Eagles become go-fors for Turgon, just that they (Húrin or Fingon) send a message to Turgon at some point telling him of their plans. No response is even needed. He does come "unlooked for" after all.

I believe that it was discussed in a fairly early season (3 or 4?) whether one of the Noldor would have a Palantir-like device, and it was decided it created more problems than it solved to do that.

does not have to be a Palantir, still it would seem strange that Numenor gets someting Noldor-made which the Noldor themselves do not have, and that Tol Eressea has something Noldor-made to gift to Numenor which is not common among rank Noldor themselves - as Tol Eressea is inhabited by the Teleri... We should see Noldor "magical technology" of some kind - as elvish culture does decline, it should be more developed the earlier we are in time...

 

[MithLuin]

No palantiri in Middle-earth during the First Age, due to serious complications.

We saw the palantiri in Valinor prior to the Noldor coming to Middle-earth, so it will be no surprise that there are palantiri on Tol Eressëa.

The technology we will be developing in Gondolin at this time will be the swords-glow-blue and how-to-kill-a-balrog varieties.

We have shown the Eagles interact with Turgon and those around Gondolin before; showing them interacting with Turgon again this season would make sense.

I agree that there should be no elf messengers leaving Gondolin during this season.

 

[Odola]

so it will be no surprise that there are palantiri on Tol Eressëa.

How? Toll Eressea is a stronghold of the Teleri - those should be reluctant to use anything Noldorin and grossed out by their "technology"? Before the War of Wrath there are no other elves there than the Teleri.

It seem that some Vanyar were there after their return from the War of Wrath - before they are allowed re-entry into Valinor proper - if we follow the idea of Ingwion having build Kortirion there, but still even if we assume some of the Vanyar having been stationed there did tarry longer, the Vanyar themselves are not into technology much.

So the only way is if the Vanyarin army has used some Palantiri (given to them by the Noldor of Tirion at their depature for thr War of Wrath) during the War of Wrath in Middle Earth and just leaves them in Toll Eressea after its return and having no other uses for them the Toll Eressean gift them to Numenor - as humans like any technology and always find uses for it.

Has there been any reconciliation after the kinslaying in Valinor? We know Teleri will not join the War of Wrath because they still hate the Noldor while the Vanyar do go. Anyway, the question why and how does Toll Eressea possess Noldorin artefacts created on the mainland of Valinor in just a couple of centuries to be able to give them to Numenor needs some explanation - it is far from obvious. Also we will soon be there when Earendil arrives - we do need some thought about the current state of Valinorian politics.

The technology we will be developing in Gondolin at this time will be the swords-glow-blue and how-to-kill-a-balrog varieties.

Why do they bother with it if they rely on secrecy and have little reason to suspect any interaction with any Balrog in the next dozen of centuries?
Was not their aim to create a Mini-Valinor in seclusion? Why would they focus on military technology? What do they plan to do with it? Is this a secret project of someone having foresight - just iike Idril's tunnel? Does Turgon know about it at all - this seems not to be his own plan?

 

[MithLuin]

Turgon's own plan is to be ready for a purpose. He has created a safe haven and a mini-Valinor. He is in no hurry to get to the purpose of what Gondolin is waiting for. But it's militant, not peaceful - highly vigilant.

As for the palantiri, Fëanor and Finwë gifted them to the Teleri of Tol Eressëa so they could look back to Middle-earth back in Season 2.

 

[Odola]

As for the palantiri, Fëanor and Finwë gifted them to the Teleri of Tol Eressëa so they could look back to Middle-earth back in Season 2.

So they now seek to get rid of them, as it was Feanor who made them?

Turgon's own plan is to be ready for a purpose. (...) But it's militant, not peaceful - highly vigilant.

Turgon has a secret, wide-reaching, elaborate military plan and no secret service to provide him with vital, necessary intel for such a plan? How does that one work?

 

[MithLuin]

He has friendship with the eagles who live in the Crissaegrim, the same eagles who showed him the location of Gondolin.

 

[Odola]

He has friendship with the eagles who live in the Crissaegrim, the same eagles who showed him the location of Gondolin.

Well, we know that Eagles are not very keen on being regularly employed by others, they like to do what and when they please... So this source might work occasionally, but not regularly.

 

[MithLuin]

Correct, the eagles work for Manwë, not Turgon. They are not under his command. They do, however, monitor the lands around Gondolin and share news with him, because they are on friendly terms.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Suggestion both for Húrin and the Union of Maedhros: do they coincide with Galdor's death?

 

[MithLuin]

Are you suggesting that Maedhros proposed the Union at the same time Galdor dies in a skirmish?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Are you suggesting that Maedhros proposed the Union at the same time Galdor dies in a skirmish?

Not necessarily; it's more a question about the timing. In this case, where does Húrin's wedding to Morwen (and Túrin's subsequent birth possibly in the next year) match up with things like Galdor's death in relation to the Union?