Session 1.13

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Here are the discussion questions for the next Session 1.13 about Episode 1.11 airing on Friday 29th January 2016.
  • How should we handle the elements of the next episode?
    • Aulë? How do we transition into his story?
      • How Aulë has been involved and how do we get to the Dwarves?
    • What are we going to do about Eru’s depiction and Aulë’s repentance
    • Yavanna, Ents and Eagles
  • In addition, this will be a significant episode for the frame with the visit of Thorin Oakenshield's company to Rivendell.
    • What interactions and dynamics should we show between characters in Rivendell?
As always please refer to the previous Session Notes and the Audio Session 1.12 at http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/sessio...a-fall-of-the-house-of-ainur-part-the-second/
 
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We've started to work on this (the thread on episode 1.11 - discussion on Aulë begins at page 6, post #112.)

Just to pick a few things from that discussion:

Ouzaru made the following argument:"If Osse v. Aule has been a thing from earlier in the season and part of the "discord" that is stressing Manwe out, and it comes to a head because Melkor is actively seeking to build his own pantheon, supplanting Ulmo (in his mind, his strongest opponent) with Osse. Aule feels picked on and, like most everyone in season one, is starting to doubt that Manwe has what it takes. And of course, his solution is to make something to fix the problem, leading to the dwarves”

Nicholas suggested there could be a rather playful discussion in early episodes where Aule complains to Ulmo about that Osse always wrecking his stuff. "Nothing too combative, just to drop some foreshadowing.” He went on: ” The full explanation of Aule's motives can be easily given by Elrond in the frame, however, we do want to show his growing concern as much as possible”, for instance when Aulë comes to Utumno with Manwë. And Nicholas also sugegested that whenever the subject of the Children comes up, Aule should show his impatience: "But when? When are they coming, Kementari?" he asks of Yavanna.
After Aule has his final confrontation with Ulmo over Osse, he could even talk with Orome, who has been searching for the Children.”

I suggested that Ilúvatar's intervention could be in a vision, and Nicholas had the idea that it should come from the fire of Aulë’s furnace. Together with MithLuin we formed the idea of a vision of the Timeless Halls suddenly appearing in the furnace and Eru’s voice speaking from it. My picture is that when Aulë repents, the awakening of the dwarves is happening behind him, while he faces the furnace/Eru, repenting. As we listen to his words and see his remorseful face, the fire cast on the dwarves starts to glitter in their eyes. I imagine he then turns to smite them, and they cower before him.

With Halstein and Ouzaru on the discussion, the point was made that the fire should have a clean light in the vision, to avoid any Melkorian overtones during the scene.
 
Yay, shiny new post!

I think it is important to portray Aulë's impatience, but also his loss of hope/trust that the Children are coming. He may begin to doubt that Iluvatar will ever allow the Children to waken, because Middle Earth is such a chaotic mess. So, when Ossë's rebellion comes to a head, so does Aulë's 'I-am-so-completely-done-with-this.'

Aulë's transgression is not a typical fall/rebellion....but it is a transgression. He is 'anticipating' the actions of Iluvatar and doing it himself....and he is 'anticipating' the war that Manwë has not yet declared by building up his own little (heh) army to protect his domain from the chaos of others.

As this is one of the few times we will see the intervention of Iluvatar (Drowning of Numenor is a looooooong ways off), we will want to figure out what aspects of their conversation we can use in other scenes (past and future) so that the audience will be clued in. I have been thinking all along that we will use music to recall the Music, so clearly that needs to be present here. But perhaps there are other motifs we can incorporate for scenes that hinge on Fate (or Fateful Decisions)?

The only two scenes I have thought to incorporate this 'oh hey, Iluvatar!' theme into thus far have been Nessa's capture, when her cry for help is answered by Tulkas, and the repentance of Ossë, when Uinen's words get through to him and he calms. Are there any other scenes in Season 1 where we would want the audience to detect the hand of Iluvatar at work? Would it be missing from the decision to go to Valinor (a very subtle indication that they're on the wrong track)?
 
Aule particularly creates the Dwarves sturdily in order that they might resist the power of Melkor. It should be shown then that there are creatures which have been twisted by Melkor and this is what Aule is working to prevent.

For Eru's intervention, I really like the idea of using Manwe like the servant boy in the film 'Quo Vadis:' where Manwe (or maybe Mandos!) unwittingly speak with the voice of Iluvatar. This also has the benefit of very easily revealing Aule's transgression to the other Valar, therefore instigating the work of Yavanna on the Ents.

In the eagles' case in particular, I think it can all tie into the finding of the beasts in Middle Earth (discovered by Orome & Tulkas in an earlier episode), as a sort of wake-up call that the Valar cannot just ignore Middle Earth. It basically closes the loop of the wrong reasons for creating Valinor discussed earlier; they need to reassert their role and not just leave it to Melkor.
 
What if we have someone, I'm thinking Mairon, see the scene of Aule's repentance. He goes directly to Manwe, maybe before seeing how things play out. He might be expecting some punishment to be pronounced. Yavanna is present and makes her plea for tree-herders. I can just see Mairon's exasperated face as she seems to be completely missing the point. Manwe is in the midst of refusing her when she says, "But it was in the Music!"

Then we get the aforementioned zoom into Manwe's head, and the journey through the skies of Arda. Maybe we even get closer, seeing civilizations beginning to arise. We don't see the Children just yet, if we do get that close, they should be no more than humanoid shapes of incandescent light. All with the Music from Ep. 1 reprising triumphantly in the background.
 
I like Mairon expecting draconian "justice", though it seems a bit much to expect Manwe to do something when Iluvatar has already forgiven him. I'll think about it a while.
 
I've changed my mind about the Eagles and the Ents.
I'm going to be the old boring guy who clings to the published Silmarillion. The process after Ilúvatar's intervention is pretty well described there. Aulë confess to Yavanna, who starts to worry about the trees, and she goes to Manwë and asks to have trees that defend the olvar - "it was in the Song". And Manwë says that is a strange though but then concludes that the trees of Kementari, along with the Eagles of the Lords of the West, shall awake when the Children awake.

So, I suggest we wait with the Eagles and Ents until the final moments of the last episode of Season 1. I think this is good, not just because it's in the published Silmarillion. If we wait and don't bring them in now, the pressure on the Valar to go to war will increase.

After the Yavanna-Manwë scene, we have to show that Aulë's story gets known by the Ainur. It just can't stay a secret. He should confess to the others.

I think that the episode should end with some of the Valar or Maiar discovering the balrogs. The beasts and monsters have been seen, but the balrogs have been in hiding since the destruction of the Lamps, right? No one really saw them after their transformation, I think. They have just been accused of the destruction. When Manwë and his entourage came to Utumno, they were in the basement. Even if they have been seen, there is no clear connection between Melkor and them. It's not clear that he is keeping them as a secret army. but perhaps by this time, security is getting a little slack. Someone journeying from valinor to Middle-earth could happen to see them in Utumno. Maybe Curumo joins Mairon to Utumno at one time and suddenly Gothmog appears. Curumo would then want to go back and sound the alarm.
The idea is to increase the pressure to go to war to a maximum.
 
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I feel like the reveal of the Balrogs to the Valar (and the full extent of their... scarring, I guess...) should be kept under wraps until episode 13 itself. They're such a big tonal shift in what we've been dealing with so far, they smack of "open war" more than anything we've seen from Melkor so far, and having them show up before things go past the point of no return seems wrong to me. I feel like they're more of an ace-in-the-hole, "Oh, you want to tangle, eh? Well behold my demon army kept in reserve for just such an occassion!" Like, I feel there aren't so many opportunities for Melkor to reveal any grand master plan because he's been rolling with the punches and his goals have evolved so organically compared to the Published Silm that I feel this "behold, the armies of hell" move would be a little bit of the twirly mustache we've been avoiding, and I think maybe right before the cliff-hanger to Season 2 would be an awesome time for it.
 
ouzaru said:
I feel like the reveal of the Balrogs to the Valar (and the full extent of their... scarring, I guess...) should be kept under wraps until episode 13 itself. They're such a big tonal shift in what we've been dealing with so far, they smack of "open war" more than anything we've seen from Melkor so far, and having them show up before things go past the point of no return seems wrong to me. I feel like they're more of an ace-in-the-hole, "Oh, you want to tangle, eh? Well behold my demon army kept in reserve for just such an occassion!" Like, I feel there aren't so many opportunities for Melkor to reveal any grand master plan because he's been rolling with the punches and his goals have evolved so organically compared to the Published Silm that I feel this "behold, the armies of hell" move would be a little bit of the twirly mustache we've been avoiding, and I think maybe right before the cliff-hanger to Season 2 would be an awesome time for it.
Click to expand...
Alright, you won me over. The balrogs should appear when the Valar come to get Melkor.

Other suggestions for the end of the episode: 1) Yavanna walking in Middle-earth, worrying or mourning over the life that began to grow under the Lamps but now have stopped growing. 2) Melkor and his followers building Angband. 3) Oromë hunting monsters but not being able to stop them from killing the kelvar.
 
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It wasn't clear in my post above, but when I was envisioning Mairon rushing off to tattle on Aule, it was before the forgiveness is complete. We could even show this in the episode after the 'Making of the Dwarves' episode, showing that Mairon was watching, this way it doesn't take away from the original scene.

I do think that there needs to be a call made by the hosts on who and what the Eagles and Ents are. How they are able to be sentient.
 
The Silmarillion is very clear on the nature of the dwarves when they are first created: they are basically living extensions of Aule's will, with little or no free will until their adoption by Iluvatar. Might this be played up so that Aule's finds the error of his ways naturally, realizing he has created a mockery of the Children? In the book, Iluvatar says much of this to him, but what if it were demonstrated (if there's a desire to keep Iluvatar from being overtly on screen)?

This could be a way to really downplay Iluvatar, wherein Aule, realizing his rebellion repents of his own volition, and in his horror and remorse moves to destroy the dwarves...only to have them react spontaneously with fear.

He then goes to Manwe in wonder and fear, both to confess what he has done and to seek wisdom so as to discover what has happened. Manwe's communion with Iluvatar reveals the true story.
 
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True. But the question is whether his intervention is shown on screen or simply the effect seen and the source later explained...or paired with a music motif derived from the Music.
 
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My own understanding of the 'trigger' for the war would be for the eagles of Manwë to discover the gruesome menagerie of beasts that Melkor is amassing. It doesn't have to mean the balrogs, but the rest of whatever he has prepared for the war.
 
I think we should not have the balrogs exposed until the valar come to Utumno to make war. But somehow I feel that the discovery of the other beasts is a kind of weak trigger. It's no news at this stage that there are a lot of beasts around; I think we had Oromë and Tulkas hunting monsters in episode 8. I agree that the monsters are a part of the reason to go to war, but not central. The war is inevitable because of Melkor's desire for dominion and the chaos caused by that again and again, not only in Middle-earth, but among the Ainur. We have the rebellion of Ossë in episodes 9-10 and Aulë creating the Dwarves in episode 11. In both cases the story ends well. That is good, but the more things turn out for the good, the less we need a war. At this stage, the story doesn't need something good to happen. It's not good for the story to give the Valar the Ents and Eagles right now. It would be better if something bad happens.

This episode: First, we can't just leave Ossë. Early on, we could perhaps show Ossë rejecting another invitation from Melkor? I don't know, it's just an idea.
Other than that, I think we'll do fine with Aulë and the Dwarves in this episode. I suggest we begin with a scene in which we are reminded of Aulë's impatience. Then we do the transgression. We should give it some time - it would not be good to rush over it. A longer, more focused series of scenes concentrating on how Aulë goes to his secret workshop, gathers material, prepares and shapes his children, building up to the sudden vision, could be quite good.
Also, we should have a good portion of frame in this episode. Not only because of the Dwarves but because we must have a scene between Estel and Bilbo. Estel could have a lot of prejudice against the Dwarves, but Bilbo could, smiling, sensibly talk him out of that.

(So I think that the aftermath of Aulë and the Dwarves should happen next episode (12). Aulë confessing to Yavanna, Yavanna going to Manwë, and how they talk about what was in the Song. I think that Manwë should end that conversation by saying that the Ents and the Eagles shall awaken at the same time as the Children, not before. The Eagles are associated with hope to such a high degree, if they turn up now, everyone will feel things are going to turn out well - and that's not a feeling we need. Besides, they can't just show up at the whim of the Valar - they are in the Music, but not of any solo from Manwë or Yavanna. Then we have the council where Mandos speak of the awakening. At this point, I suggest that Mairon finally feels that there is no question that Melkor is the stronger and that a future on his side is the best road to take. And so he slips away. Maybe this defection isn't noticed right away, I don't know. We seem to lean towards having Sauron's path to evil be as subtle as it can be, so maybe the Valar don't notice him defecting at all, or if they notice it, they regret it but don't see that it should have any special consequences. Perhaps they could take it as a sign of the general chaos, though, and be downcast by it. And maybe, in the light of what happened when Ossë was rebelling, they fear what Mairon can do as a rebel. Curumo could speak up and describe his fellow Maia's words of late. (I think Mairon could defect either before or after the Valar makes the decision to go to war, but preferrably before).
And then (after a lot of talking) we must have some time showing how Mairon comes to Melkor and is set up as lieutenant of Angband, given some of the balrogs to command etc.), and perhaps some more of Oromë fighting the hopeless fight against the monsters.
 
One of the primary reasons, besides impatience, that is given for Aulë's creation of the dwarves is his express desire to share in the wonders of creation and the joys of Arda as created. This seems to me to indicate he is somewhat of a loner, or else sharing with the other Valar would be sufficient. He should be shown to be very enthusiastic and excited about his work and wishing to show it off...though this would have to be carefully done so as not to make him appear foolish. Perhaps none of the Valar and Maiar are so excited about his work with stone and metal etc?

Mairon would be an obvious potential sympathizer with Aule's interests. However I don't think he should be involved in Aulë's choice to create the dwarves. Prior to that, though, he could be shown to react lukewarmly to Aulë's creations, thinking they do not go far enough to show seeds of his separation from his former master.

Aulë spends significant time after his confession and redemption hiding the dwarves around Arda. Given his temperament and excitement in sharing his handiwork his sharing the dwarves and what occurred with Yavanna can be shown to be a barely held secret, that he just cannot withhold any longer...it bursts out he's so excited and impatient for the final awakening.

The impulse to create the dwarves can be seen to be part of the whole harmony of the Music when Manwë sees it again...seeing the mind and intent of the Valar. It may also be seen that these are precursors or indicators of the impending awakening, which would be encouragement to deal with Melkor.
 
Haakon, you make a really good point about the Eagles representing hope. Certainly, at the end of the Third Age, "The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are coming!" is Deus ex Machina levels of hope - all will turn out well, once they arrive, in both the stories of Tolkien's that everyone knows.

In the Silmarillion, they...sometimes have that role, true. But they are more consistently representatives of Manwë. Fingon calls on Manwë to whom all birds are dear to speed his feathered shaft into Maedhros' heart...and instead Maedhros is rescued by eagles. They don't always 'save the day' - I am thinking of when Thorondor scars Melkor at the end of the fight with Fingolfin, and returns Fingolfin's body to Turgon for burial. Fingolfin is still dead, and Thorondor did not interfere with his (hopeless) one-on-one duel.

But even more significant is the cloud of warning - the Eagles of the West - prior to the destruction of Numenor. That was a message from Manwë, alright, but do we equate that with 'hope'?

It's something we should think about here in the beginning, with the creation of the eagles....what do they mean? Are they going to (consistently) be a message of hope? That Manwë is still working to save the people of Middle Earth? Or....are they something else?

Because regardless of what they are, that needs to be clear from their creation.
 
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The eucatastrophic nature of the eagles is primarily drawn by their sudden appearance. If the eagles are seen to be born/created and then sent forth as the messengers of Manwë, so they are seen to be sentient/active participants in the action (rather than the pivot in the action) then the eucatastrophic quality should be masked, if not removed.
 
Yes - I think their role in this story will be different from their role in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, and we can have their later role in mind without limiting ourselves to the 'sudden appearance to save the day' conceit.

But that begs the question of what they *do* mean in this story, and how we should introduce them to make that point....
 
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