Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I was only able to listen to about twenty minutes of the last session live, unfortunately, so I do not know if there was anything said about the E01 script outline or not.
Season 2: Episode 2 - We Three Kings
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
- Start date
This is why Vairë's silence is such an important addition to her character - she *cannot* advise, and does not. She sees the outcome of the music more clearly than any other, but is powerless to attempt to convince someone of one course or another. Mandos' habit of speaking only sparingly, at the end of a debate, and at the express command/invitation of Manwë, is a similarly judicious use of their powers not being used to overwhelm others' autonomy. Galadriel's mirror is an excellent parallel to the tapestries of Vairë (and later Míriel), but I should remind everyone that the temptation to seize power over others is very strong for Galadriel - she passes Frodo's test, but it's not a given that she never would have accepted his offer. Galadriel is a Noldo princess who sets up a powerful realm for herself. She uses her Ring and her Mirror to further her own abilities. She would not be against the idea of personally challenging Sauron.
Vairë has more knowledge and more wisdom than Galadriel, but also less of a thirst for power. She is content to remain in the Halls of Mandos and weave her tapestries. In Greek myth, you do *not* mess with the Fates. They can wreck your life. In Norse myth, you respect the Norns, even if you are as powerful as Odin. Vairë has that role, and is likely more than a little unsettling herself, but....we don't see her doing that. We don't see her having that kind of role in the lives of elves and men. Does she, though? She very well could. Her husband Námo is moved to pity *once* in all of history - when Lúthien sings to him of her fate of being separated from Beren for all eternity (or at least until the end of Arda). Was Lúthien's song that much sadder than every other sob story the keeper of the dead has heard?? OR, did he have a reason to treat her differently? Perhaps Vairë has shown him why it is important to allow Beren and Lúthien to return to life and have a child together. The hosts wanted to tie Vairë and Námo's abilities together the way Manwë and Varda's are - standing on Taniquetal together, they can see and hear much further. Námo is the one who interprets Vairë's tapestries.
...but I'm going to refrain from commenting on Episode 2 until I'm caught up. Really.
There was, but I just caught the tail end of it. Corey said he liked it, and mentioned the Finwë/Míriel stuff as good, but I didn't hear any of his comments, really.
I was able to listen to some of it; he liked a lot of it, but wanted Ingwë to be a first generation elf or The First Elf, so he couldn't have lost his parents but someone else.
That's what we get for letting him proofread this while reading the Lhammas for Mythgard Academy 
Ah well, I can live with Ingwë as a first generation elf, I suppose. *sigh* I can give up my dreams of 'Where is my father? Where is my mother? Where is the horse and the Rider?'
Ah well, I can live with Ingwë as a first generation elf, I suppose. *sigh* I can give up my dreams of 'Where is my father? Where is my mother? Where is the horse and the Rider?'
There is in fact one example of Vairë acting to some degree. She seems to be the one who convinces the Valar that Míriel isn't going to return to the living, and this is perhaps the most important testimony in the decision to allow Finwë to marry again. But in this example, she is advising the Valar, not the elves. I think that there are a few of the Ainur who interact directly with the Children, and to various degrees, but it seems that most of the time, it is Valar who are not tied to Valinor - Ulmo of course (and Ossë), and Oromë. To most of the valar, the move to Valinor also is a move away from interfering with the destinies of the Children - the invitation is a notable exception. Later, we have the War of Wrath. In other cases, they are careful, perhaps using messengers instead of taking direct personal action. They are powerful gods, and each action has powerful effects, so they act with caution.
Perhaps one of the more active Valar could do something instead? Oromë? Or Aulë (you touched on this in the discussion but then moved over to Vairë)?
Perhaps one of the more active Valar could do something instead? Oromë? Or Aulë (you touched on this in the discussion but then moved over to Vairë)?
Atanvarno
Member
The reason it's Vairë:
- Míriel's ultimate destiny is with Vairë
- It enables foreshadowing, dramatic irony, pathos and all those good things
- It is an opportunity to have Vairë play a role in a story that is her being more then a glorified extra (worse, a prop for Mandos)
- It showcases her in her own right and in her own way separate to Mandos
- It opens up interesting questions of interpretation for the audience -- does she make events by weaving them or simply foretell them; the nature of free will and determinism; the gulf in the Ainur perspective to the Quendi
As far as I can make out your object comes down to this doesn't fit your interpretation of the Vairë character, and I'm sorry about that; however, I've already outlined how it is a valid interpretation to make her ambiguously active, not just passive, in very occasional instances, analogous to Mandos. We're given next to nothing to work with from the text and nothing here contradicts the text (which we would be within our rights to do, given we're engaged in adaptation).
We're telling stories, expanding on a source. So long as we're not contradicting that source (without good reason), then I would say that in fact good storytelling is always the best choice. And we're not contradicting anything. What other factors could there possibly be other than good storytelling?
In my opinion, this is good storytelling. It's the right decision for the episode story structure, for the Vairë character, for the season structure and for Míriel's story. If there's an alternative out there that gives as many or more positives, I haven't heard it or thought of it yet.
No. It is about mythological function. The mythological function of Vairë, the Weaver, is to weave the story of the world. Just that.
The point is, there are several ways to do good storytelling. It is perfectly possible to make the wrong decisions and still call it good storytelling.
I think it's important to give some screen time to each Vala. Vairë is of course a bit hard to get to know for the audience, but I think it should be doable. What one should NEVER do is to cut a Vala from the series. Vairë must be included and it should then be about how to implement her in a good way without contradicting. That means she should stay silent indeed, but her weaving should be shown and used in the story as well. I like the points Atanvarno makes, especially the last one. Introducing questions for the audience is a good thing. That would introduce more discussions about the series.
I'm not close to suggesting that we should cut Vairë from the series. I'm just not agreeing with this particular idea that has been suggested. There must be lots of other ways to solve this situation, and lots of other ways to include Vairë (and in fact she will probably appear later when the Valar discuss Finwë's wish to marry Indis).
*still not caught up, sorry*
The fate/destiny vs free will question is something that we can't answer on screen. We have to just present the story and let the viewers work it out. BUT, we have to present things intentionally, having considered those questions ourselves. Raising a concern that a particular storyline is too heavy-handed on the fate side is fine, because that reduces the autonomy of the characters (and is therefore questionable storytelling). IF it is written is such a way that the choices of the characters are still clear, we haven't fallen off the deep end and become Calvinists where everything is just predestined. It can also be seen as lazy if we have something happen simply because it is inevitable, as if there never was any other choice.
Another concern is that our good guys have to *act* like good guys. We can't allow the Valar to do things just because it is expedient. Tolkien was very careful to have every choice matter for his characters - you can't be a 'good guy' just by choosing the right side in a big picture way - every choice you make has to affirm that. THIS is why people complain about his stories being so black-and-white on the morality...because his good characters are truly good people. They can make mistakes, and things can go badly for them, but they can't make calculated decisions to sacrifice someone else for the cause or commission someone to do their dirty work to keep their own hands clean. There is very little political dishonesty among the heroes of his stories. The Valar are not fallen, so they can't do bad things - they can only do well-meaning things that turned out to be mistakes because they didn't consider certain things. In the case of the Children - the Children are a new unknown entity to them. They don't understand or know who the Children are, so a well-meaning mistake is almost inevitable. The honest desire for their safety is a good impulse....it's their own unwillingness to depart from their own land that is hindering them seeing the other options. But the Valar, at the end of the day, have to allow people to make their own choices. That is very important to Manwë, as we saw in his treatment of Melkor in the last season.
I think there is value in questioning how Finwë comes to his decision to go to Valinor. We are focusing on him more than the other ambassadors, it seems - they are subplots whereas he is the protagonist. There are his own thoughts and reasons, Míriel's thoughts and reasons, and what he *thinks* Míriel's thoughts are...as well as what impact each of the Valar he meets has on his changing opinion. As long as we avoid turning this into a sitcom where 'it was all a misunderstanding', I will likely be okay with what you came up with....but I do have to listen to the discussion first!
The fate/destiny vs free will question is something that we can't answer on screen. We have to just present the story and let the viewers work it out. BUT, we have to present things intentionally, having considered those questions ourselves. Raising a concern that a particular storyline is too heavy-handed on the fate side is fine, because that reduces the autonomy of the characters (and is therefore questionable storytelling). IF it is written is such a way that the choices of the characters are still clear, we haven't fallen off the deep end and become Calvinists where everything is just predestined. It can also be seen as lazy if we have something happen simply because it is inevitable, as if there never was any other choice.
Another concern is that our good guys have to *act* like good guys. We can't allow the Valar to do things just because it is expedient. Tolkien was very careful to have every choice matter for his characters - you can't be a 'good guy' just by choosing the right side in a big picture way - every choice you make has to affirm that. THIS is why people complain about his stories being so black-and-white on the morality...because his good characters are truly good people. They can make mistakes, and things can go badly for them, but they can't make calculated decisions to sacrifice someone else for the cause or commission someone to do their dirty work to keep their own hands clean. There is very little political dishonesty among the heroes of his stories. The Valar are not fallen, so they can't do bad things - they can only do well-meaning things that turned out to be mistakes because they didn't consider certain things. In the case of the Children - the Children are a new unknown entity to them. They don't understand or know who the Children are, so a well-meaning mistake is almost inevitable. The honest desire for their safety is a good impulse....it's their own unwillingness to depart from their own land that is hindering them seeing the other options. But the Valar, at the end of the day, have to allow people to make their own choices. That is very important to Manwë, as we saw in his treatment of Melkor in the last season.
I think there is value in questioning how Finwë comes to his decision to go to Valinor. We are focusing on him more than the other ambassadors, it seems - they are subplots whereas he is the protagonist. There are his own thoughts and reasons, Míriel's thoughts and reasons, and what he *thinks* Míriel's thoughts are...as well as what impact each of the Valar he meets has on his changing opinion. As long as we avoid turning this into a sitcom where 'it was all a misunderstanding', I will likely be okay with what you came up with....but I do have to listen to the discussion first!
Look, I get that I'm probably not going to make my point in such a way that it will make you change your mind. But could you at least consider a smaller change.
Ok, Vairë realises that Finwë is talking about her future helper Míriel when he expresses his fears that his loved one won't join him and come to Valinor. Vairë's reaction is noticeable but impossible to understand. Vairë then leaves to go and look at her tapestry. We see her look at a part where Míriel and Finwë are together.
Let's say that Vairë has a Maia in her service. That Maia takes a secret look at the tapestry and then decides to make a copy and give to Finwë. There will be a lot of Maiar around in Valinor, so it's perfectly natural that one of them helps Vairë. Ironically, this could mean that this Maia loses his/her job and Míriel gets it later.
It's a small change, but to me it would mean a significant difference - the Weaver is keeping her work to herself and not interfering with the destiny of mortals.
Ok, Vairë realises that Finwë is talking about her future helper Míriel when he expresses his fears that his loved one won't join him and come to Valinor. Vairë's reaction is noticeable but impossible to understand. Vairë then leaves to go and look at her tapestry. We see her look at a part where Míriel and Finwë are together.
Let's say that Vairë has a Maia in her service. That Maia takes a secret look at the tapestry and then decides to make a copy and give to Finwë. There will be a lot of Maiar around in Valinor, so it's perfectly natural that one of them helps Vairë. Ironically, this could mean that this Maia loses his/her job and Míriel gets it later.
It's a small change, but to me it would mean a significant difference - the Weaver is keeping her work to herself and not interfering with the destiny of mortals.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
My initial suggestion, which I made during the main broadcast, and again on Saturday, was to have Finwë's encounter with Aulë be the determining factor. Atanvarno and Ouzaru won me over to the Vairë idea.
My initial reaction, Haakon, was similar to yours, but I do really like the idea as a story-telling device, both for it's impact here and further on.
Also, it keeps in with mythic oracular tradition. Remember the king who went to the oracle at Delphi and asked about an upcoming battle. The oracle said that a great army would be destroyed.
I think you might be overestimating the level of interference. Finwë already wants to live in Valinor. Míriel will already join him. The tapestry changes nothing. It just serves to connect Vairë to their story.
I do see the value in your proposed suggestion, but that means we have to create, introduce, and develop a character that did not exist before, which I'm not certain we will have time for in this episode. It will not resonate when this Maia loses her position to Míriel, since we only introduced her for that purpose to begin with.
My initial reaction, Haakon, was similar to yours, but I do really like the idea as a story-telling device, both for it's impact here and further on.
Also, it keeps in with mythic oracular tradition. Remember the king who went to the oracle at Delphi and asked about an upcoming battle. The oracle said that a great army would be destroyed.
I think you might be overestimating the level of interference. Finwë already wants to live in Valinor. Míriel will already join him. The tapestry changes nothing. It just serves to connect Vairë to their story.
I do see the value in your proposed suggestion, but that means we have to create, introduce, and develop a character that did not exist before, which I'm not certain we will have time for in this episode. It will not resonate when this Maia loses her position to Míriel, since we only introduced her for that purpose to begin with.
The big difference between that example and your outline idea is that in Delphi, there was a human oracle, speaking supposedly with words given by gods, and you are letting a deity engage by own initiative.
As to my suggestion, we don't have to put much work into character building - in television series, this kind of nameless agent often appears. That's hardly a problem. And the switch from this Maia serving Vairë to Míriel entering her service isn't central to the idea, we can skip that.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Building a throwaway character in a single sequence is something I typically find quite irritating in TV. It is done quite a lot, true, to my annoyance.
The gods are still actively giving the oracle the prophecy just as Iluvatar give Vairë hers. There is no lack in divine initiative involved in the oracle of Delphi, at least not in myth.
Bear in mind, I make no assertion that Vairë is advocating a position. Merely making a statement. Just as the audience can interpret this action how they wish, so does Finwë.
The gods are still actively giving the oracle the prophecy just as Iluvatar give Vairë hers. There is no lack in divine initiative involved in the oracle of Delphi, at least not in myth.
Bear in mind, I make no assertion that Vairë is advocating a position. Merely making a statement. Just as the audience can interpret this action how they wish, so does Finwë.
There is certainly a lack of direct divine intervention.
Basically you guys are equating Vairë with a human oracle, then?
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I think we have built in enough autonomy to justify this action, but I will have to wait until the rest of the discussion is available to know how that will play out (hint hint )
I would want the following safeguards in place to preserve Finwë's autonomy. Finwë and Míriel are already engaged. They love each other, and yes, parted on bad terms, but that was not all we have seen of their relationship. Prior to seeing a tapestry, he has made it clear that he wants to move to Valinor, and his concern is whether or not he will be able to convince the other Noldor to come with him - specifically Míriel. Meanwhile, Míriel has made it clear that her choice is Finwë, and she will follow him to whatever end. His remaining reluctance is the thought that he will have to choose between Valinor and Míriel. The way she greets him upon his return makes it clear that she is happy to see him and not in need of a lot of 'convincing' (not exactly a 'you had me at "hello"' moment, but...you get the idea).
With this backdrop in place (and based on the skeletal outline, it seems to be), Vairë's action of showing Finwë an image of Míriel in Valinor merely reassures Finwë that he will be successful in getting her to join him there. Vairë is not promising Finwë a happy marriage or advising him to come to Valinor, so a lot more 'passive' than most oracles - just a vision left up to his own interpretation. Finwë's choices need to be his own. Finwë and Míriel will need to discuss moving to Valinor in Episode 3.
Perhaps we could have Vairë 'meet' Finwë in Lorien, so that she seeks him out in the same place he will ultimately lose his wife, and shows him the tapestry there? I have no idea what the structure of this part of the episode looks like, but it could be a brief moment between Finwë and Vairë without a lot of portentous lead-up. (I am fine with the significant look when she slips away from the Valar meet-n-greet; I more mean no one 'fetching' Finwë and taking him to Mandos.)
)I would want the following safeguards in place to preserve Finwë's autonomy. Finwë and Míriel are already engaged. They love each other, and yes, parted on bad terms, but that was not all we have seen of their relationship. Prior to seeing a tapestry, he has made it clear that he wants to move to Valinor, and his concern is whether or not he will be able to convince the other Noldor to come with him - specifically Míriel. Meanwhile, Míriel has made it clear that her choice is Finwë, and she will follow him to whatever end. His remaining reluctance is the thought that he will have to choose between Valinor and Míriel. The way she greets him upon his return makes it clear that she is happy to see him and not in need of a lot of 'convincing' (not exactly a 'you had me at "hello"' moment, but...you get the idea).
With this backdrop in place (and based on the skeletal outline, it seems to be), Vairë's action of showing Finwë an image of Míriel in Valinor merely reassures Finwë that he will be successful in getting her to join him there. Vairë is not promising Finwë a happy marriage or advising him to come to Valinor, so a lot more 'passive' than most oracles - just a vision left up to his own interpretation. Finwë's choices need to be his own. Finwë and Míriel will need to discuss moving to Valinor in Episode 3.
Perhaps we could have Vairë 'meet' Finwë in Lorien, so that she seeks him out in the same place he will ultimately lose his wife, and shows him the tapestry there? I have no idea what the structure of this part of the episode looks like, but it could be a brief moment between Finwë and Vairë without a lot of portentous lead-up. (I am fine with the significant look when she slips away from the Valar meet-n-greet; I more mean no one 'fetching' Finwë and taking him to Mandos.)
That would be a very interesting change, actually. If they meet in Lorien and she gives him this picture of him and Miriel together on that spot, the whole thing is much more ambiguous and less easily taken as a prophesy. I'm still not in favour of Vairë acting in this way, but this would be so subtle that I could live with it.I think we have built in enough autonomy to justify this action, but I will have to wait until the rest of the discussion is available to know how that will play out (hint hint
I would want the following safeguards in place to preserve Finwë's autonomy. Finwë and Míriel are already engaged. They love each other, and yes, parted on bad terms, but that was not all we have seen of their relationship. Prior to seeing a tapestry, he has made it clear that he wants to move to Valinor, and his concern is whether or not he will be able to convince the other Noldor to come with him - specifically Míriel. Meanwhile, Míriel has made it clear that her choice is Finwë, and she will follow him to whatever end. His remaining reluctance is the thought that he will have to choose between Valinor and Míriel. The way she greets him upon his return makes it clear that she is happy to see him and not in need of a lot of 'convincing' (not exactly a 'you had me at "hello"' moment, but...you get the idea).
With this backdrop in place (and based on the skeletal outline, it seems to be), Vairë's action of showing Finwë an image of Míriel in Valinor merely reassures Finwë that he will be successful in getting her to join him there. Vairë is not promising Finwë a happy marriage or advising him to come to Valinor, so a lot more 'passive' than most oracles - just a vision left up to his own interpretation. Finwë's choices need to be his own. Finwë and Míriel will need to discuss moving to Valinor in Episode 3.
Perhaps we could have Vairë 'meet' Finwë in Lorien, so that she seeks him out in the same place he will ultimately lose his wife, and shows him the tapestry there? I have no idea what the structure of this part of the episode looks like, but it could be a brief moment between Finwë and Vairë without a lot of portentous lead-up. (I am fine with the significant look when she slips away from the Valar meet-n-greet; I more mean no one 'fetching' Finwë and taking him to Mandos.)
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I feel that this might be a decent compromise. Not being one of the originators of the idea, I'd like to hear from one or both of them... Oh, and hint taken. I have been rendering the newest segment over the past couple of hours.