Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Actually, that I can fix. Especially since I'm having some internet trouble with my computer.
That's the raw video.
That's the raw video.
Season 2: Episode 2 - We Three Kings
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I thought I posted this, but here it is again:
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
An update on Blab.IM, by the way: it isn't coming back. They shut down the site because, they claim, the users' content was not interesting enough. Weird, since they use the number of users to brag about what a great job they were doing, but complain that the content creators were not doing a good enough job to get more eyeballs.
So, any hosting that I do will be through Google Hangouts. It has its drawbacks, for example you don't get to see everyone at once. Good news, though, it streams directly to YouTube live where folks can watch it. In fact, we actually had eyeballs on it last time.
All of this said ....
BAM!
So, any hosting that I do will be through Google Hangouts. It has its drawbacks, for example you don't get to see everyone at once. Good news, though, it streams directly to YouTube live where folks can watch it. In fact, we actually had eyeballs on it last time.
All of this said ....
BAM!
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
And ....
BAM!
BAM!
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Last one!
The video cuts out in the last few minutes, but you aren't missing anything but the outro there.
The video cuts out in the last few minutes, but you aren't missing anything but the outro there.
Atanvarno
Member
I'll see what I can do.
At present, we have them "pre-enguaged" in episode 1. We went with this because Ingwë was happily married and Finwë was single, so we wanted a diversity in the ambassadors' relationship status. It also gives us a place to go with the Finwë/Míriel relationship.
I did have the notion that as part of the dénouement, they would become engaged -- it seems like the obvious way to cap off the episode -- though that is not in the notes I posted, because I thought of it later.
Since then, the execs have said they want Ingwë's wife to have been taken by the Rider, rather than his parents (I'm still not for this decision, I don't think it buys us very much and it's fixing a problem that is a non-issue, but that is a fight to have another time). So we've lost one of the reasons for not having them engaged.
In summary: everything you suggest is already there, in one form or another (even if we land with "pre-engaged") as episode one has already done the work of establishing them as a strong relationship). I would like to spend a minute or two with them as a couple in act one to reinforce this, but act one is pretty packed with important setup content for the story. (This is a reason I want to chop the frame scene in half and move the second half into act four.)
I think this is already well in place.
The mid point arguement (#8) and the second plot point (#12) establish at act breaks that Finwë's arc goes from being undecided and skeptical, to wanting to come to Valinor but certain that he will not be able to convince Míriel.
This, too, is already in place.
The "back at Cuiviénen" thread, told at the pinch points (#6 and #10), show Míriel rejecting (by inference) another advance and desperately missing Finwë. The inference being she has come to the realisation that being with Finwë is more important to her than her objections about Valinor.
Now this is only in inference, she doesn't ever say to someone, "You know, I still don't think going to Valinor is a good idea, but if that's what it takes to be with Finwë, I'll do it gladly." I think it would be horribly on-the-nose to have her do that and that the audience will get the point with what is outlined.
This is exactly what the second plot point act break (#12) is.
The dénouement (#16) gives us their reunion. As outline above, I'd like to add in this being the marriage proposal. Ideally, I want Míriel demanding Finwë marry her, so they're never again parted.
At no point during the reunion does Finwë show or mention the tapestry to Míriel. She's already come to that decision.
As outlined, I really think we've hit each of your points.
That is my interpretation of the scene. It's Vairë saying (without speaking, obviously), "you know that thing you're worried about and has made you a sad-sack this whole trip, yeah that's a non-issue, buddy." And only Vairë (or Námo), with her foresight could actually convince Finwë of this. (Worth noting, she's also saying a lot else that goes right over Finwë's head.)
Here's where it gets controversial, and I think this is the bit Haakon doesn't like: I want the audience to wonder -- Vairë weaves the story of the world, does that mean she records the events that will happen, i.e. are already destined to happen, or does her weaving actively tell the story, i.e. decide what events are destined to happen?
The episode as outlined certainly shows that Míriel came to the decision on her own. If Vairë had never shown Finwë the tapestry, nothing would be different, Míriel would still come to Valinor with Finwë. But I want there to be sufficient ambiguity that a small segment of the audience would wonder if the other thing was the case; they would be wrong about this one instance, but would they be wrong generally? I want to leave that open.
Shrug. Right now, I'm not thinking about episode three too much.
I think it might be sufficient (if people go for my Míriel demands marriage suggestion) to have that implied and done in this episode's dénouement.
I don't know yet who the protagonist is going to be in episode three, or what their stroy is, so I don't want to commit the episode to having a scene that might not work for that story to wrap up this one. But then, it's entirely possible that will work out well in episode three -- I just don't know yet.
So the resolution of the question "will Finwë come to believe he can convince Míriel to come to Valinor with him?" is the epsiode climax -- every structural point (first plot point, midpoint, second plot point and even the pinch points) drives the narrative to answer the question as the climax.
Answering it, i.e. Finwë realising that he and Míriel will have a life together in Valinor, needs to be a big moment emotionally and have the trappings of a climax. So it needs to happen at #15. As to portentous lead up, that's part of what makes it a big moment and sells it as a climax. If we're suggesting that we leave everything as is structurally, and have Finwë bump into Vairë somewhere (probably Lórien) rather then be summoned to Mandos -- yeah I'm fine with that.
Just bare in mind why we've got him being summoned to Mandos in the first place: it's Ingwë who brings him there and remarks that it's out of the ordinary (that Vairë hasn't bothered with seeing either him or Elwë). We give Ingwë a helping hand in resolving the episode conflict and underline that Vairë doesn't normally interact, making this moment special, climax-worthy.
Now, I'm not sure that it should necessarily be Ingwë -- we don't really have Finwë and Elwë becoming fast friends this episode, which we're meant to. So maybe this should be Elwë. But we picked Ingwë for a reason, he's the one most 'intune' with the Valar, so it seemed to fit (however, given the execs admonishment about our assumption that religious-style motivations being more of a Vanyar thing, maybe that doesn't fit so well any more).
So yes, I'm fine with altering the circumstances of Vairë showing Finwë the tapestry, so long as it is still a functional climax, I don't much care how it is presented.
I hope I've explained the thinking behind the decisions well enough. I'm sure Ouzaru will (brutally) correct me if I haven't.
Changing topic, can we come up with some additional things to do in Valinor? I've made a few additional suggestions I snuck into the outline marked [[as notes]]. We need some (at least four) more.
Ouzaru suggested in the discussion, and I agree, that the ambassador's should return laiden with booty and that they should learn something or be given something from each of their encounters with the Valar. So when making a suggestion, please bare that in mind.
I'd also really like a moment that focuses on Elwë.
Things to do in Valinor that we already have:
- Big greeting with everyone
- A walk through Valmar
- Finwë in Lórien, standing in Míriel's future resting place
- [[Ingwë and Nienna greiving for his (of his wife or parents), then comforted by Estë]]
- Seeing the big glowing Trees
- [[Having fun with Tulkas and Nessa]]
- Arts and crafts with Aulë
Further questions:
- Is there a conscensus behind pushing back on the exec dictat that it's Ingwë's wife who is gone, rather than his parents?
- Can we split the frame scene in two (to free up some time in act one for more Finwë/Míriel time and some Morwë establishment?
- Speaking of Morwë, are we happy with that as his name?
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Ok, let me address the further questions really quick.
1. Not really worth the effort. It doesn't really change the story in any functional way.
2. We could, but to my memory we don't have a great deal of frame.
3. I'm fine with Morwë.
1. Not really worth the effort. It doesn't really change the story in any functional way.
2. We could, but to my memory we don't have a great deal of frame.
3. I'm fine with Morwë.
With things to do in Valinor, perhaps it would be wise to spend some time with some of the Valar that are not used as much. For example Vána. As she is the wife to the great elf-friend Oromë, I think there can be something to be done there. With her connection to Melian as well, we should be able to show something. However, I don't know exactly what just yet.
Atanvarno, I apologize for setting you up to defend the decision point by point - I actually did look at the outline sketch before writing that, and was making sure that thematically, everyone retained agency...I was not attempting to change/discount what you had done.
I am about 24 minutes short of being caught up, but I wanted to bring up some points that I think are relevant.
1) You can't see the stars in the light of the Trees in Valinor. All of the 'ooooh, this is really cool!' scenes are going to need some counterpoints, and someone should miss the light of the stars and the sound of the waters by Cuiviénen - someone needs to be homesick. This can be Finwë, conflated with missing Míriel. Or it could be one of the others, who have initial super-enthusiasm, and only on reflection does it begin to cool. Ingwë dealing with loss and grief curbs it for him, so I would suggest that this is something that Elwë and Finwë could discuss together as a moment of reflection and friendship. Finwë is moping about this is really great, but I miss my gf, and Elwë could start thinking of other things they miss (the food?) and it comes into a discussion of what is home? That fits the themes of the season quite well, and might be a good moment for Elwë, who is never coming back to Valinor. For a location...they could be walking by the Sea? [We don't have the Calacirya, yet, do we, so can you even see the Sea from Valinor, or do you have to scale the Pelori?]
2) I do like the idea of giving Arwen a starry cloak, simply because such things are awesome. Lúthien will have the shadowy cloak made of her hair that magically puts people to sleep and is dark (black). Eowyn will eventually get Finduilas' starry mantle, which is a deep blue color with stars around the hem and at the throat. So, yes, a black velvet cloak with glittery star-like jewels sounds like an awesome gift for Arwen, and the type of costume I would like to see in the show. Its significance will come in whatever later scenes we see her wear it in - and ties into her name of Evenstar. Alternately, the gift could be the white jewel that she wears and later gives to Frodo as a sign of passing on her spot on the ship to Valinor to him.
3) Material culture - I would expect to see wool and linen rather than cotton or silk at Cuiviénen. We need to get on the same page as the costume people for this. I agree they are beyond simply wearing tanned animal hides, though.
4) I am in complete agreement on shifting the actual type of divide in the celebration in Lothlorien - Brian articulated this very clearly. Arwen should feel odd one out because it is done differently than in Rivendell, and it is her new/outsider perspective that sees anything funny about it. The elves of Lothlorien are just being themselves. Speaking the name of Varda = High Elves in Middle Earth, so a celebration of the stars without much (if any) mention of Elbereth would be perfectly natural to them but very odd to Arwen. Perfect, and the type of cultural confusion we can exploit without introducing conflict/drama of people being angry at each other over it. I am having trouble thinking of a star-related festival that wouldn't be yearly, but perhaps it's a 'planets align' situation where Mercury-Venus-Mars-Jupiter-Saturn are all visible in the sky at the same time, causing a festival. Or something else - a comet? Those return at regular intervals, but not yearly.
More thoughts to come!
I am about 24 minutes short of being caught up, but I wanted to bring up some points that I think are relevant.
1) You can't see the stars in the light of the Trees in Valinor. All of the 'ooooh, this is really cool!' scenes are going to need some counterpoints, and someone should miss the light of the stars and the sound of the waters by Cuiviénen - someone needs to be homesick. This can be Finwë, conflated with missing Míriel. Or it could be one of the others, who have initial super-enthusiasm, and only on reflection does it begin to cool. Ingwë dealing with loss and grief curbs it for him, so I would suggest that this is something that Elwë and Finwë could discuss together as a moment of reflection and friendship. Finwë is moping about this is really great, but I miss my gf, and Elwë could start thinking of other things they miss (the food?) and it comes into a discussion of what is home? That fits the themes of the season quite well, and might be a good moment for Elwë, who is never coming back to Valinor. For a location...they could be walking by the Sea? [We don't have the Calacirya, yet, do we, so can you even see the Sea from Valinor, or do you have to scale the Pelori?]
2) I do like the idea of giving Arwen a starry cloak, simply because such things are awesome. Lúthien will have the shadowy cloak made of her hair that magically puts people to sleep and is dark (black). Eowyn will eventually get Finduilas' starry mantle, which is a deep blue color with stars around the hem and at the throat. So, yes, a black velvet cloak with glittery star-like jewels sounds like an awesome gift for Arwen, and the type of costume I would like to see in the show. Its significance will come in whatever later scenes we see her wear it in - and ties into her name of Evenstar. Alternately, the gift could be the white jewel that she wears and later gives to Frodo as a sign of passing on her spot on the ship to Valinor to him.
3) Material culture - I would expect to see wool and linen rather than cotton or silk at Cuiviénen. We need to get on the same page as the costume people for this. I agree they are beyond simply wearing tanned animal hides, though.
4) I am in complete agreement on shifting the actual type of divide in the celebration in Lothlorien - Brian articulated this very clearly. Arwen should feel odd one out because it is done differently than in Rivendell, and it is her new/outsider perspective that sees anything funny about it. The elves of Lothlorien are just being themselves. Speaking the name of Varda = High Elves in Middle Earth, so a celebration of the stars without much (if any) mention of Elbereth would be perfectly natural to them but very odd to Arwen. Perfect, and the type of cultural confusion we can exploit without introducing conflict/drama of people being angry at each other over it. I am having trouble thinking of a star-related festival that wouldn't be yearly, but perhaps it's a 'planets align' situation where Mercury-Venus-Mars-Jupiter-Saturn are all visible in the sky at the same time, causing a festival. Or something else - a comet? Those return at regular intervals, but not yearly.
More thoughts to come!
Haha, and I literally come across this on my facebook feed not an hour later:
https://www.facebook.com/events/931073500336468/
https://www.facebook.com/events/931073500336468/
- Is there a consensus behind pushing back on the exec dictat that it's Ingwë's wife who is gone, rather than his parents?
All we 'gain' from making Ingwë a widower right now is the introduction of the idea that only bachelors go off and have adventures, and an explanation for Ingwë's high kingship based on seniority (when we are trying to build a reason for that into the story as we go).
However, I try to only push back if the ideas the Execs have are unworkable, not just if they don't match my own preferences. We have to choose our battles. If I make a big deal about this, Corey will have to spend more time in a later session defending his choices, which might not be the best use of that time. So, first I want to have the opportunity to listen to the session where the Execs expressed this preference (I haven't heard it yet), and then I want to figure out if this will actually cause us problems down the road (Will we want Ingwë's son for the War of Wrath? Maybe not. Will this make the Finwë-remarries-Indis-when-no-other-elf-ever-does-such-a-thing story more difficult to write well?) If it's going to be a problem, we need to push back. If it's not going to be a problem...we let them have their way.
- Can we split the frame scene in two (to free up some time in act one for more Finwë/Míriel time and some Morwë establishment?
- Speaking of Morwë, are we happy with that as his name?
As I understood Dr Olsen, he didn't specify which close relative Ingwë should have lost. He just said he didn't want it to be parents. So basically Ingwë could be married, but then, who is the lost relative?
As Vána is one of the few 'dissenting' voices at the council of the Valar, it would make sense to see her again later in the episode. Also, as Oromë's wife, it's quite natural the Ambassadors would spend time with her, as they no doubt visit Oromë's house at some point - he is their host/guide. Oromë's reunion with Vána after being gone so long can fit into the story of Finwë missing Míriel as well. Perhaps he hadn't thought much about her until Oromë's obvious pleasure in his pretty 'young' wife is right in front of him. And Vána will give them flowers, of course, so they could be wearing garlands or flower crowns as they're wandering around Valinor....okay, that might be a bit silly.
It's obvious that we need scenes with Finwë and Aulë and with Elwë and the Light of the Two Trees. We also could use some time with Manwë and Varda.
I do not want the Ambassadors to enter the Halls of Mandos. They can see the gate/doorway leading there, if necessary, but they should not be allowed to just walk in - that is not a place where the embodied should go. Námo and Vairë can come to them.
Perfect - it's his sister, the mother of Indis. Done. Indis as sister-daughter to Ingwë works for me.
Oh, wait....then Indis is at Cuiviénen. That's no good. Perhaps she is just a child, thus avoiding the love triangle bit?
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Great - but then, 'sister' in a broader sense, since they are first generation.
Don't tell the execs!
Yes she could be a child. Or Ingwë could have lost a different sister (not the mother of Indis) or a brother.
I like the idea of Indis having lost her mother at a young(-ish) age. We may be able to do something with that in the Frame when we get to her story (as Arwen would sympathize), and we can then give her some basis for recognizing Finwë's grief. Because part of Finwë's issue is that living in Valinor, he doesn't just feel as though he is the only one going through this right now....he's literally the only one who has experienced the loss of death of a loved one since they got there. He and Fëanor have a tight bond, and the united mourning of the loss of Míriel is likely a good part of that. If Indis has never experienced grief...it will be difficult for her to relate to Finwë. She'd be one of those 2nd spouses who complains about a picture of the dead wife being in the house because it's 'creepy'. I don't think we want to portray her that way. We want her and Finwë to actually love each other. She and Fëanor can both make mistakes in their relationship, but I would like it to be clear that part of his intense dislike for her is him being an unfair jerk, not a completely justified reaction to her being a bitchy stepmother.
Also, I can foresee the Execs cautioning us not to expand Ingwë's family tree any more than necessary. A wife and a niece and done is probably all they will want to see.
I can see some advantage to showing Indis witness the return of the Ambassadors and the happy reunion/engagement of Finwë and Míriel. I just want to avoid any implication of love triangle - Finwë doesn't know who she is at this point, and she's there to greet Ingwë (her uncle).
Also, I can foresee the Execs cautioning us not to expand Ingwë's family tree any more than necessary. A wife and a niece and done is probably all they will want to see.
I can see some advantage to showing Indis witness the return of the Ambassadors and the happy reunion/engagement of Finwë and Míriel. I just want to avoid any implication of love triangle - Finwë doesn't know who she is at this point, and she's there to greet Ingwë (her uncle).