Boromir Misunderstood?

[Anton J]

What does Boromir mean when he says ‘But why then should we seek a broken sword?’. Prompted by Aragorn’s response, we read this as a challenge to Aragorn, asking what use Elendil’s broken sword or his disheveled heir can be. But should we not instead understand Boromir as primarily asking what Elendil’s sword/heir can accomplish more than what we can when we already have the Ring?

A couple of textual hints in support of this reading:

a) Already in the paragraph where Boromir poses his question we see his focus on the Ring, which Tolkien highlights by using alliteration: ‘Boromir’s eyes glinted as he gazed at the golden thing’.​

b) After Aragorn’s response, Boromir admits that Elendil’s sword would be helpful ‘if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past’. Here the phrase ‘shadows of the past’ would make the reader think of the Ring (given its prominent role in the similarly named chapter), suggesting that Boromir again might (also) be referring to it here. Also note the repeated use of the word 'thing'.​

c) Then Boromir’s gaze seems to issue another challenge at Aragorn: ‘He looked again at Aragorn, and doubt was in his eyes.’ However, doesn’t having doubt in one’s eyes point to internal uncertainty and insecurity rather than casting doubt on someone else? Arguably, Boromir’s uncertainty could stem from seeing Elendil’s heir as a potential rival who could claim ownership of the Ring.​

d) Then the stakes are raised: Bilbo’s recites his poem, reforging the sword and kingship are brought up, the role of the Rangers for keeping peace and freedom is emphasized, and Aragorn announces he will come to Minas Tirith. How does Boromir respond? He doesn’t. He immediately returns to the topic of the Ring! This transition makes you wonder whether he was really listening until Aragorn mentioned ‘Isildur’s Bane’:​

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[Aragorn:] ‘But now the world is changing once again. A new hour comes. Isildur’s Bane is found. Battle is at hand. The Sword shall be reforged. I will come to Minas Tirith.’ ​

‘Isildur’s Bane is found, you say,’ said Boromir. ‘I have seen a bright ring in the Halfling’s hand; but Isildur perished ere this age of the world began, they say. How do the Wise know that this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?’​

In short: after its revelation, Boromir’s mind seems preoccupied with the Ring throughout, and this seems to deescalate the potential tension between Aragorn and him. By the way, saying that comparison with the Ring is Boromir’s primary intent doesn’t mean that Aragorn doesn’t pick up on Boromir’s desire for it. He might just simply be choosing to interpret Boromir more (or less, depending on how you look at it) charitably.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anton, Interesting thoughts.

I like your question, "But should we not instead understand Boromir as primarily asking what Elendil’s sword/heir can accomplish more than what we can when we already have the Ring?"

However, let me offer some other thoughts on it. First, unless Boromir has more knowledge of the Ring than has been revealed so far at the Council, he does not know very much about the Ring. There should be no way, that he is aware of, to consider that the Ring could be wielded as a weapon against Sauron. If he has been listening carefully (and I'm sure he has) he may have deduced that destroying the Ring would harm Sauron.

I don't think Boromir is particularly fixated on the Ring yet (though I agree that the glint in his eye indicates a certain attraction). I think that Boromir is still fixated on the Dream poem which has been occupying his thoughts for more than 110 days.

Curiously, everyone else does not seem very interested in the Dream poem, except wanting to dramatically reveal a series of answers to some of the riddles it contains.

Boromir is interested in the Dream poem. Rightfully so! Which should he be more interested in, a message direct to him from the Gods, or the statements of the people at the Council?

Boromir has been puzzling over the riddles in the Dream poem for a long time. 'Sword?' 'Imladris?' 'Counsels taken?' 'Stronger than Morgul-spells?' 'Token?' 'Doom?' 'Near at hand?' 'Isildur's Bane?' 'Waken?' 'Halfling?' 'Forth shall stand?' What do they mean? How do they relate and tie together?

His 'muttering' of, "The Halfling! Is then the doom of Minas Tirith come at last? But why then should we seek a broken sword?" Is, I think, just him still trying to puzzle out the Dream poem, as the answers to some of the riddles become clear. (I especially like "Why then should WE seek?" as I think the 'we' refers to himself and Faramir, and acknowledges this as a joint quest.)

Boromir's statement after Aragorn's recitation of his c.v. and his declaration (uninvited) that he will come to Minas Tirith is interesting.

‘Isildur’s Bane is found, you say,’ said Boromir. ‘I have seen a bright ring in the Halfling’s hand; but Isildur perished ere this age of the world began, they say. How do the Wise know that this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?’

While an interest in the Ring, Anton, might be influencing this comment, I think Boromir is more interested in steering the Council back on track, after two revealing, but off topic, diversions (Bilbo's poem and Aragorn's c.v.).

"Seek for the Sword."

"Found it. Now what?"

"There shall be counsels taken, stronger than Morgul-spells."

"OK, but so far, I have heard some history, discovered the answers to some of my riddles, heard another riddle poem, been asked a premature question from Aragorn, gotten his c.v. been given a declaration from Aragorn, but have not seen ANY counsels taken!"

"I ignored Aragorn's question. I will now ignore his declaration. Let's get this Council back on track! Elrond started with history. If we get back to history, maybe we will move forward to counsels?" "How do the Wise know that this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?"

Boromir steps in to do the job Elrond should have done. Whereupon, Elrond wakes up and begins to facilitate the meeting again.

 

[Anton J]

Thanks, Flammifer. I agree that Boromir is also trying to put the pieces of the dream poem together, but this is not mutually exclusive with his increasing fixation on the Ring, not in the least because Isildur's Bane has a prominent role in the poem itself. It's also good for us to realize that 'Isildur's Bane shall waken' may appear ominous to us, but might not sound like this for Boromir. Why would he not understand this line as saying that the Ring will show up and someone will claim it and use its power (possibly in the defense of Gondor).

As far as Boromir's knowledge of the Ring goes, it's clearly limited, but we should also not underestimate it. Earlier in the chapter, he interrupted Elrond thus:

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. ‘So that is what became of the Ring!’ he cried. ‘If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed.’​

So we do get a hint that Boromir already knew about the Ring and its power, and presumably of how one can use Rings of Power to rule/govern/dominate.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anton,

Yes, I like your notion that Boromir is becoming attracted to, or fascinated by the Ring. I agree that this is not mutually exclusive to Boromir trying to figure out the Dream poem. There were several comments that Boromir could have used to try to guide the Council back on track, but he decides to ask about the history of the Ring, and I like your suggestion that this is significant.

I agree that Boromir might know something more about the Ring than has been revealed in the Council. However, I am not at all sure where he would have got any idea that the Ring could be wielded for power by any but Sauron? Isildur seemed to have no such idea. So, where would the Dunedain of Gondor have got such an idea? Even Elrond and Cirdan, accompanying Isildur at the Battle of the Last Alliance, don't seem to know that the ring can be used to rule/govern/dominate. They just seem to think it is a dangerous creation of Sauron and better destroyed than kept.

So, I don't think that Boromir is likely to have any idea of how the Ring might work as a weapon or instrument. However, he might well be attracted to it, as the Ring certainly seems able to create attraction, even if it is not sentient, and, if it is sentient, it might be inducing attraction in Boromir.

 

[Anton J]

Later in the Council Boromir will suggest to use the Ring against Sauron, of course:

Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of need? Wielding it the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he most fears, I deem. […] Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!​

But maybe his mind didn’t take this route immediately after being shown the Ring. It is definitely possible het gets the idea subsequently. For instance, he hasn’t yet heard Bilbo’s and Frodo’s tale, from which he will learn that someone other than Sauron can use the Ring to become invisible. Gandalf later adds another power, saying that the Ring ‘had lengthened [Gollum’s] years far beyond their span’. And the idea is completed by ring expert Saruman (in Gandalf’s words):

The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the Power would pass to us. That is in truth why I brought you here. For I have many eyes in my service, and I believe that you know where this precious thing now lies. Is it not so?​

However, it does seem likely to me that Boromir believes that the Ring could be wielded by someone other than Sauron from the start, even against Sauron. It’s a tricky argument to make, as we don’t have much evidence to go by, but a few thoughts:

(a) It seems “magic rings” and their uses are common in Middle-Earth folklore. Think of Bilbo in ‘Riddles in the Dark’:​

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It seemed that the ring he had was a magic ring: it made you invisible! He had heard of such things, of course, in old old tales; but it was hard to believe that he really had found one, by accident. ​

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This suggests that Boromir most likely also is aware of stories involving “magic rings” which can be used by people other than their maker, in the same way that a sword can be wielded by someone other than its smith.​

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(b) In the same vein, folk like Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel seem convinced – even without trying or first-hand experience with the Ring – that they could claim and wield it (though it might corrupt them). This somehow seems to be baked into the definition of a Ring of Power.​

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(c) Rather than being told that you can use the Ring, people instead need to be told that they cannot use the Ring or that no one except Sauron can properly be called the “Lord” of the Rings. The Ring seems to be an exception in that regard; suggesting that the default way of thinking is that you can use a “magic ring” even if you aren't its maker or original master.​

 

[Anthony Lawther]

There seems to be a key difference in the interpretation of using the Ring:

1. Using the Ring - you can put it on and get some effect from it. Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo have all experienced this up to this point.

2. Using the Ring to rule or dominate - None but Sauron have done this, nor does there seem to be any evidence that this is a common theme in old old tales, as it isn't mentioned by anyone to this point.

In Gondor they couldn't work out what Isildur's Bane was, thinking it most likely to be an orc sword or other weapon. So he has had only seconds to think of Isildur's Bane as the Ring, and piece together whatever little lore or stories he recalls of magic rings. We know he is a man of action, but doesn't seem to be much for lore himself, instead deferring to his father. So, I doubt he is having ideas of wielding the Enemy's Ring against him at this stage of the Council where he wonders almost to himself why they should seek a broken sword, but is more likely to be still puzzling over how a Ring could cause a mighty Dunedain King's death.

Anton, One of the text quotes you have made is lacking some context which could lead to a different interpretation.
Boromir's suggestion to use it only comes after Gandalf's report of his last encounter with Saruman. He indirectly acknowledges the idea as Saruman's too

'I do not understand all this,' he said. `Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of need? Wielding it the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he most fears, I deem.

I could support your interpretation if the question were asked later in the Council when more had been revealed, but not at the point it occurs.

 

[Anton J]

Thanks, Anthony, at the risk of seeming obstinate, some points in my defense:

(1) Agree that we don’t have evidence of anyone but Sauron using the Ring to rule or dominate. Then again, whenever the option is brought up (e.g., by Gandalf, Saruman, Boromir and Galadriel), we never hear someone object: ‘How can you be so sure you could even use it to rule?’. That this would be possible (of course, with power commensurate to the stature of the person wielding it) seems a given for everyone involved.

(2) Also, while it’s true that Boromir only just learned what ‘Isildur’s Bane’ refers to, we’ve heard he is familiar with ‘the Great Ring of him that we do not name’. Besides the hints I mentioned above that the notion of “magic rings” and their use could be quite widespread in Middle-Earth (beyond the study rooms of scholars), I think Boromir’s use of the phrase ‘Great Ring’ is suggestive here as well. Other locations of this phrase often points to the larger story of all the Rings of Power. Consider, for example, what Gandalf says here:

In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.​

So, Boromir’s using this phrase could point to him knowing at least a bit about the other Three, Seven and Nine Rings as well. This would make it even a smaller leap for him to think about using Sauron’s ring to rule/inspire/empower/strengthen/preserve, as the other Rings of Power have presumably been used in a similar way.

(3) It’s true that Boromir says he agrees with Saruman that the Ring should be wielded. He doesn’t say that he got the idea from Saruman though. And in any case it makes rhetorical sense for him to acknowledge the parallel, since this move takes away the possibility of the most obvious objection to his plan (viz. ‘The traitor Saruman said the same!’). Not mentioning Saruman would be like painting a target on his back.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anton,

It is vaguely possible that Boromir knows or suspects that the Ring might be used as a weapon against Sauron by this point of the Council. But it is a considerable stretch.

I think the weight of the evidence runs contrary. More likely that Boromir, and most of the other Council members, will not be aware of this possibility until later in the council, once Gandalf, quoting Saruman, reveals the potential.

All the evidence is that few know much about Sauron's Ring. Probably only the White Council realize this aspect of the Ring so far (and Frodo and Sam might have a clue, due to Sam overhearing Gandalf telling Frodo when Frodo offers Gandalf the Ring, "No! With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."

There does not seem to be any probable way that Boromir could suspect yet that the Ring could be wielded against Sauron. He probably has gathered that keeping it out of the possession of Sauron is crucial. He may also suspect that: 1) The Ring could be dangerous to bear, from Elrond's comment on Isildur, "Yet death maybe was better than what else might have befallen him." 2) Destroying the Ring might weaken Sauron, from Elrond's comment, "Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure."

Speculation by Boromir that the Ring might be wielded against Sauron seems unsupported by any evidence so far.

If Boromir has speculated at all on the possible roles of the Sword and the Ring yet, a more likely speculation might be, "Re-forge the Sword and use it to smash the Ring? It could cut the Ring off Sauron's hand. Maybe it could chop up the Ring?"

 

[No One in Particular]

If there us any widespread knowledge of the Great Rings in Middle-earth, I would imagine it has degenerated into legends and old wives tales garbled in the memory and changed in the telling. Most likely, if tales have been told, the details would be different from region to region and story teller to story teller. What Boromir is getting here at the council is probably the first hard data that he's ever gotten about the subject, and to him it probably sounds every bit as speculative and sensationalist as the old legends.

 

[Anton J]

If I would summarize the debate, it seems to hinge on the following two questions:

1. Does Boromir already know stories about “magic rings” (be they Great Rings or their lesser cousins) and their uses?
2. Does Boromir already regard using a “magic ring” as analogous to using a sword, in the sense that it can be used/weaponized by anyone wielding it and against anyone?

If we answer 1 and 2 positively, it becomes an easy inference for Boromir to make that the Ring can be used against Sauron (one for which he wouldn’t necessarily need confirmation from Saruman). By the way, I don’t think it’s necessary to make reference to the specific properties of a “magic ring” here, by the way. Whether a ring is used to dominate, lead, inspire or preserve beauty and craft – all of these can be (and, in some cases, are) employed in opposition to Sauron.

As to question 1, while I totally agree that “magic ring” stories must largely have degenerated into legends and old wives’ tales in Middle Earth, I think we have enough evidence to answer this affirmatively. The main piece of evidence here is Boromir’s interruption:

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. ‘So that is what became of the Ring!’ he cried. ‘If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed.​

This makes question 2 the crux of the issue. The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be direct evidence is favour of either a positive or a negative answer to it, as we aren’t told the content of the “magic ring” stories that Boromir knows. So all we have to go by isindirect evidence.

In my view, the best indirect evidence for a positive answer (in order of decreasing strength):

(a) Nowhere does anybody call into question the possibility that someone other than Sauron could use/weaponize the Ring (against Sauron). Only the wisdom of that is objected to, not the very possibility.​

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(b) The generally instrumental way we see “magic rings” discussed (e.g., ‘It seemed that the ring he had was a magic ring: it made you invisible! He had heard of such things, of course, in old old tales’) combined with the way people are told that they shouldn’t use the Ring and that no one except Sauron can properly be called the “Lord of the Rings”. This reveals a general tendency to think that "magic rings" can be used by anyone, and therefore weaponized.​

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(c) Boromir is a warrior and already at war with Sauron, so he would presumably be eager to use any means to gain an advantage in this fight. If you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail; and if you’re at war everything becomes a weapon.​

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(d) Given his use of the phrase ‘Great Ring’, Boromir might know a bit about the history of other Rings of Power and how they were transferred from one wielder to another and presumably occasionally weaponized.​

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(e) The textual hints suggesting that Boromir becomes preoccupied with the Ring and its potential uses from the moment he lays eyes on it (see first post in this thread) presuppose that he does already believe the Ring could be weaponized.​

In my view, the best indirect evidence for a negative answer (in order of decreasing strength):

(a’) As this is such ancient history, Boromir is unlikely to have enough knowledge (or even beliefs) about “magic rings” to have any clear ideas about their use or potential weaponization against Sauron.​

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(b’) Boromir might not yet be convinced the ring shown at the Council is to be taken seriously as a weapon, as it simply seems an object from old wives’ tales.​

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(c’) Using (e.g., for invisibility) and fully weaponizing a “magic ring” seem different in kind rather than degree, so even if Boromir would be convinced the former is possible, the latter option wouldn’t necessarily cross his mind.​

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(d’) Boromir’s later reference to Saruman’s idea suggests he got the idea of weaponizing the Ring from him.​

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(e’) The burden of proof is on those arguing for the positive case, so the lack of direct or strong indirect evidence is sufficient to reject it.​