Can Things in a System Push Back on Other Things in a System?

D

Dave Heinitz

New Member
In session 176 it is mentioned that there is not power in the earth to resist Sauron and that Sauron will not be prevented from destroying the hills by the system, but it is also mentioned that they [the Ainur] are all part of the system and things within a system can operate on each other. Given these points, it makes sense that the system itself would not kick Sauron out, but why could the earth, Tom Bombadil, and others things of the system not push back on Sauron, since he is just another thing of the system? Is this because Sauron is drawing upon the stain in Arda Marred, or for some reason of logic misrepresented above?
 
Hi Dave,

Your question sort of assumes that Galdor's comment is meant literally. But, is it? Is it just a metaphor by Galdor to illustrate vividly Galdor's thought that, though Tom Bombadil might be very powerful he is not powerful enough to defy Sauron?
 
If Galdor's comment (and any support for it from the council or those 'exploring the Lord of the Rings') only means Bombadil is not powerful enough, or only only powerful enough within his space, to resist Sauron, then I agree there is little general applicability to the 'system of Arda' discussion. However, in session 176 the idea was proposed that all the Ainur (as well as regional, Ainur-like entities such as Bombadil and Caradhras) are bound to the 'system of Arda,' and as such could not defy Sauron. If this point of broader applicability is given merit, wouldn't it mean that all the entities within the system of Arda have equal ability, according to their strength, to defy Sauron within the system? If this were true, other Ainu could defy Sauron, unless there is something else at play (Melkor's taint?). But, if the equal ability to influence each other is correct, then I guess it puts us back to your point that others currently resident in Middle Earth who could challenge Sauron just don't have enough power within the system to do so.
 
Is there any evidence that 'The System of Arda' prevents any of the Ainur (and especially all of the Ainur) from defying Sauron?

I don't think so. The Ainur have battled Sauron's old boss Melkor (who might possibly be less part of 'the System of Arda' than Sauron). They beat him at least three times. (Tulkas drove him out of Arda. The Valar later smashed Utumno and bound Melkor with the chain Angainor. Then they defeated him again in the War of Wrath.) Men, without the help of Elves or Ainur (that we know of) defeated Sauron. At least he surrendered and was taken captive to Numenor. The Last Alliance of Men and Elves, (without any known help from the Ainur) then defeated him again and cut the Ring from his finger.

Neither Morgoth, nor Sauron are seen as almighty and unbeatable within 'The System of Arda' historically. Is there any reason for this to have changed?

Certainly Elrond seems pessimistic that there is a force remaining in Middle-earth that can defeat Sauron. Galdor doubts that Bombadil in particular can defy Sauron. But is there any reason to suppose that this is inevitable due to the 'System of Arda'?

I think the evidence is clearly contrary to this notion. Isn't Galdor's comment more likely dramatic metaphor, rather than theological revelation?
 
What is also supported by precedence is that such opposition of the forces of evil comes at a cost to the earth, or at least it's shape.

The War of Wrath sank Beleriand, the landing of Numenorian forces in Valinor sank Numenor and changed the shape of the world, the War of the Last Alliance blasted the lands north of the Black Gate, and the subsequent resistance of Mordor by Gondor has seen the lower reaches of the Anduin somewhat corrupted and ruined. This suggests that the earth itself doesn't have the strength to resist Sauron.

It is possible that such victories are now being seen as Pyrrhic, and so the appetite for continued action by the Ainur is gone, and the Elves are packing to leave in the near future, while Men who are generally only really able to relate what they've seen in the last few generations are willing to continue the fight.

Tom Bombadil might have the strength to resist Sauron within his realm, but if all that is left unconquered is that realm what is the point of the resistance?
 
Anthony Lawther said:
What is also supported by precedence is that such opposition of the forces of evil comes at a cost to the earth, or at least it's shape.

The War of Wrath sank Beleriand, the landing of Numenorian forces in Valinor sank Numenor and changed the shape of the world, the War of the Last Alliance blasted the lands north of the Black Gate, and the subsequent resistance of Mordor by Gondor has seen the lower reaches of the Anduin somewhat corrupted and ruined. This suggests that the earth itself doesn't have the strength to resist Sauron.

It is possible that such victories are now being seen as Pyrrhic, and so the appetite for continued action by the Ainur is gone, and the Elves are packing to leave in the near future, while Men who are generally only really able to relate what they've seen in the last few generations are willing to continue the fight.

Tom Bombadil might have the strength to resist Sauron within his realm, but if all that is left unconquered is that realm what is the point of the resistance?
Click to expand...

Hi Anthony,

How likely do you think JRRT would consider that there was no point in resistance if all that was left unconquered was Tom Bombadil's realm?

Consider, that when he was writing this, all that was left unconquered in Europe by Nazi Germany was Britain. They fought alone, and did not think there was no point in resistance. This proved to be correct. This was our finest hour.

I don't think that JRRT would have thought for one moment that there was no point in resistance to evil, any more than Dorothy Sayers thought so in 1940:

"No allies left, no help
To count upon from alien hands,
No waverers remain to woo,
No more advice to listen to.
And only England stands."

('The English War' by Dorothy L. Sayers)

"This is the war that we have known
And fought in every hundred years,
Our sword upon the last steep path,
Forged by the hammer of our wrath
On the anvil of our fears."
 
The sign of a truly great author is that the characters they portray can convincingly express opinions other than the author's.

Equally, Britain did NOT fight alone, even in 1940. Troops fighting the Germans and Italians in Europe were from the Soviet Union, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Greece, Poland, Free France, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada at a minimum. Some of these were partisan 'rebels' rather than government sponsored, but it is myopic to disregard their efforts.

The poem written by Dorothy Sayers ignored this (at best, subsuming the efforts of the British Commonwealth countries under the banner of England) and was written from the context of the USA remaining neutral which was the case until late in 1941. If the USA had indeed not been drawn into the war by the attack on Pearl Harbor, or if the Soviets had been defeated in the East, then the resistance of Britain and her allies would likely have eventually proven futile against the Germans.

Back to consideration of Middle-Earth:

Similarly, if Tom Bombadil was the only part of Middle-Earth to hold out against Sauron, with the Valinorians remaining safely unassailed at home, then it would have proven a futile effort from the perspective of Middle-Earth, if not from Tom's perspective.

Ability to defy Sauron must be kept distinct from willingness to defy Sauron. The Valar have demonstrated an unwillingness to directly oppose Sauron, possibly due to an understanding that this would lead to destruction of, or at least severe damage to, that which they are trying to protect.

All of that aside, continuing the fight while keeping a likely source of internal strife 'safe' is likely a futile effort.
 
The Soviet Union was an ally of Nazi Germany in 1940. It was not until 22 June 1941 that Hitler invaded Stalin's Soviet Union (with which he had had an alliance until then, and which had co-invaded Poland with him and divided it up between them) and brought the Soviet Union into the war against him). Nazi Germany had invaded Denmark on 9 April 1940, and the country fell in days. Nazi Germany invaded Norway on 9 April 1940, and the country was conquered by 10 June. Nazi Germany invaded the Netherlands on 10 May 1940. The Dutch forces surrendered on 15 May. They also invaded Belgium on 10 May 1940, and the Belgians surrendered on 28 May. They also invaded Luxembourg on 10 May, and that country surrendered one day later. The Nazis also invaded France on 10 May 1940, and France surrendered on 25 June. The Nazis invaded Greece on 6 April 1941 (though the Italians had invaded on 28 October 1940) and Greece fell (except for Crete, which fell on 1 June 1941) on 23 April 1941. Poland, of course, was invaded by the Nazis on 1 September 1939 (and by the USSR on 17 September 1939) and fell on 6 October 1939, with Germany and the USSR dividing up the country.

Canada, Australia, India, etc. were part of the British Empire, so, of course were counted on the British side.

Britain and its Empire stood alone against Nazi Germany, with no other allies (except Greece for part of the time) for a year, from June 1940 to June 1941 (when Hitler stupidly invaded the USSR).

Sure, a few refugees from conquered countries fled to Britain to fight on. But presumably they might have fled to Bombadil's realm in Middle-earth to do the same.

Sure, Britain eventually gained other unexpected allies. The USSR, because Hitler stupidly attacked them. The USA, because Japan stupidly attacked them, and then Hitler stupidly declared war on the USA in support of his Axis ally.

However, the moral of this story is certainly; There is a point in resistance to evil, even if it seems hopeless, or at least desperate. "Oft evil will shall evil mar!" Allies can spring up from unexpected places! Refugees from defeated realms can bolster your own strength!

Who's to say that refugees from Rivendell, the Havens, and Gondor wouldn't have made their way to Bombadil's realm to aid in the fight? Who's to say that Sauron would not have made stupid mistakes that brought say the Easterlings or the Southrons (or both) into the war against him?

I just am certain that the concept that there was no point in resistance, just because all else had been conquered, would have probably been totally alien to JRRT, living when he did and where he did, and, most importantly, believing what he did.
 
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