Council of Elrond: why are we doing this?

C

Clueless Noob

New Member
Why is there a Council at all?? There are only 4 groups / people who show up.
1) "Golum escaped." -Legolas
"I read that on Gwaihir's blog a couple of weeks ago, but thanks for the corroboration." - Gandalf

2) "Sauron's emmisary showed up at our door. Dain wants to know what to do." -Gloin
"The lamps are going out all over Europe Middle Earth. Resist. And keep on resisting. Know that you are not alone." -Elrond

3) "Looks like bad things are happening, and Cirdan wants to know what's up." -Elves from the Havens
"The One Ring has been found and we're putting together a plan to destroy it." - Elrond

4) "Ulmo sent us this weird, cryptic dream. Help"
...

Seems to me that Boromir is the only one there who actually needs the long explanations. And that's really only to convince him that Aragorn is who he says he is. But why does that matter? Denethor is the guy who will need convincing when the time comes, and even Boromir will have trouble helping in that debate.
The three people who matter (Elrond, Gandalf, and Aragorn) already know that the ring needs to be destroyed. Everyone else (besides Legolas) is there to get advice. Why would they argue with the advice that they specifically came to get?
"Our advice is to throw the Ring into the Fire" - Elrond
"OK. Sounds good. Thanks for the update." - Everyone Else


Edited to add:
And there were some Hobbits there. They didn't come for advice specifically. Gandalf sent Frodo "towards danger, but not to rashly. I suggest you make for Rivendell." (no book - I think I got the quote right-ish). Frodo has been taking Gandalf's advice since forever. There's no reason to convince him of anything. "I wish to destroy the ring, or rather to have it destroyed." Frodo didn't need help coming to that conclusion. And he had made up his mind that Aragorn was non-glittery gold long before in Bree. So the question stands: why all the yapping?
 
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It's one thing for the Wise to understand what's going on and give targeted advice, but it's quite another to ensure that all the various peoples understand what's at stake.
 
Elrond didn't know that Boromir was coming (equipped with dream and poem) until the morning of the council.

So, the purpose of the meeting (before Boromir showed up) in the minds of Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn was probably, "see if Frodo will volunteer to take the Ring to Mt. Doom and destroy it."

Frodo has not at all committed to this quest yet. There is a large difference between "I wish to destroy the Ring," and, "or rather to have it destroyed".

Gandalf might think, "I think he will volunteer. There's more to Hobbits than meets the eye!" Elrond could think, "If he's anything like Bilbo, there's a good chance he will volunteer." Aragorn, "Well, he might volunteer. He is very brave and hardy and stoic. But it is a very big ask."

The secondary purpose of the council is to involve and inform the various parties who have providentially shown up from around the Western World.

Of course, the council acquires some new objectives when Boromir arrives, bearing poetry and prophecy. Still, I think the main priority remains the same.

I also think that it is a near run thing. Against his own longing and desire, in the face of a 'great dread', Frodo, feeling as though, "some other will was using his small voice", said, 'I will take the Ring'.

Now, I think that Frodo may have realized subconsciously that was his likely doom when he heard Bilbo's Earendil poem in the Hall of Fire.

It may be that Bilbo's volunteering to take the Ring was another tipping point.

But I still think it was a near run thing.
 
Clueless Noob said:
Why is there a Council at all?? There are only 4 groups / people who show up.
1) "Golum escaped." -Legolas
"I read that on Gwaihir's blog a couple of weeks ago, but thanks for the corroboration." - Gandalf

2) "Sauron's emmisary showed up at our door. Dain wants to know what to do." -Gloin
"The lamps are going out all over Europe Middle Earth. Resist. And keep on resisting. Know that you are not alone." -Elrond

3) "Looks like bad things are happening, and Cirdan wants to know what's up." -Elves from the Havens
"The One Ring has been found and we're putting together a plan to destroy it." - Elrond

4) "Ulmo sent us this weird, cryptic dream. Help"
...

Seems to me that Boromir is the only one there who actually needs the long explanations. And that's really only to convince him that Aragorn is who he says he is. But why does that matter? Denethor is the guy who will need convincing when the time comes, and even Boromir will have trouble helping in that debate.
The three people who matter (Elrond, Gandalf, and Aragorn) already know that the ring needs to be destroyed. Everyone else (besides Legolas) is there to get advice. Why would they argue with the advice that they specifically came to get?
"Our advice is to throw the Ring into the Fire" - Elrond
"OK. Sounds good. Thanks for the update." - Everyone Else


Edited to add:
And there were some Hobbits there. They didn't come for advice specifically. Gandalf sent Frodo "towards danger, but not to rashly. I suggest you make for Rivendell." (no book - I think I got the quote right-ish). Frodo has been taking Gandalf's advice since forever. There's no reason to convince him of anything. "I wish to destroy the ring, or rather to have it destroyed." Frodo didn't need help coming to that conclusion. And he had made up his mind that Aragorn was non-glittery gold long before in Bree. So the question stands: why all the yapping?
Click to expand...

Much of what was discussed at the Council (which we only get the juiciest details of) was not know by most.
Additionally, up until this meeting most of those who even knew about the Ring had it on good authority from Saruman (who was most learned in Ring Lore) that it had rolled down the Anduin to the sea. But most of the people at this meeting didn't know about the Ring, nor of it's significance in this moment.

Elrond doesn't appear to run a democracy in Rivendell, but he also isn't a despot. Elrond's advisors (Erestor and company) do listen and provide input, so there are more than three people who matter, and who haven't turned up for advice.

Not everyone who came for advice was interested in 'throw the Ring into the Fire', but perhaps more like answers to questions like 'What do we do in the face of this newly presented threat?', 'Is there help available to us with our plight?', or 'Has anyone seen Gollum skulking around?' On those grounds, many would be unsatisfied with the advice they got.

So the purpose of all the 'yapping' was to fill people in on the happenings in the local parts of Middle-Earth (Dunland, Eriador, and Rhovanion) and the relative importance of the quest that they are about to be recruiting for; e.g. 'Resist either with hope or without it, but spare us someone for this party being assembled to get the Ring to the Fire' and 'We're sending you help Boromir, even unasked for, but also in a manner unexpected.'

And for Cirdan the purpose is 'If bad things are happening and there's going to be a rush at the Havens we'll need prior notice to build extra ships; unless there's no time left, in which case I'll see you in Valinor.' ;-)
 
The 1st goal was to nudge Frodo into accepting the quest. Except that "some other will was using his small voice". Eru left sticky, jelly-doughnut-covered fingerprints all over Frodo, and Gandalf was wise enough (aware enough, something enough) to know this. "You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck..."

The 2nd goal is to tell everyone that the Ring isn't lost forever, and has been found, and we have it here. Really??!? There are less than 15 people who have a need-to-know clearance level on that information! Gandalf says (later), "...have so often counselled my friends to suspect even their own hands when dealing with the Enemy."

I still don't understand why Everyone needs to know Everything and a big, open Council is necessary
 
Well, I think we have to grant that this is a novel, and the council serves to establish the stakes (among many other things) for the reader. That is, we might say, the Doylist justification.

There are several Watsonian reasons we can cite, however, if we wish to remain in the text. Primarily, everyone benefits from hearing the challenges everyone else faces. Sauron will win more easily if the free peoples are divided--as they might do, if they grow to believe they shoulder an unfair burden compared to the rest. While no great military alliance is possible, there's something to be said for shared resistance, and of course for the Fellowship that results.

Elrond clearly knows a great deal; but he also seems to know the limits of his wisdom, and he feels called to put everyone together and see what happens. When everyone separately starts to play complimentary music, he listens well enough to know this ought to be symphony.
 
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The Council is, within the Legendarium, a remarkable contrast to the behavior of the sons of Fëanor after the murder of his father and the theft of the Silmarils -- no council with his half-brothers or even his wife, just Fëanor making a speech with all the power of his forceful personality (channeling some of the arguments Morgoth had been whispering among the Elves). In fact, I don't think there's a First or Second Age equivalent of the Council -- the closest I can think of is when Finrod took the problem of Beren's quest to his people in Nargothrond. He ended up taking off his crown and leaving with (I think) only 10 loyal followers.

Not having the book at hand, I can't remember whether it is said in the Appendices that the White Council was Galadriel's idea, or whether I'm remembering it from a later work, but she and Elrond clearly had learned humility in the intervening years. And, of course, neither she nor Elrond uses a royal title -- they are Lord of Rivendell and Lady of Lothlorien: full of wisdom and experience enough to want the full and free cooperation of informed allies.

It might be that the most important part of the Council was the introduction of hobbits to the wider world. Elrond, Gandalf, and Aragorn already knew that Bilbo had been 'chosen' to re-discover the Ring and Frodo had been 'chosen' to bring it to Rivendell. Gandalf suspects that Frodo might be meant for more, but surely the revelation of Boromir's dream would have convinced Elrond that this small person was the right person to carry the burden. I've often thought that Boromir's dream had a role in Elrond agreeing to include Merry and Pippin. Dreams that come over the water had best be taken seriously -- 'the Halfling forth shall stand' might not just mean one particular halfling, but also 'the Halfling' as a class of persons. Which, as it turns out, it does.

And, of course, as Beech27 says, there's the 'Doylist' justification.
 
First and foremost, of course, is that the readers need to learn all of this somehow.

There are also several items that would not have been commonly known that are critical to the wider issue:

1) Sauron has been trying to convince the Dwarves of Erebor to come over to his side. That is unlikely to be shared widely — especially among the elves.

2) Saruman has betrayed them. That is something few of them know.

3) The reader knows far more about hobbits than anyone at the Council save Gandalf, Aragorn, Gloin, and Elrond — and the latter three have limited knowledge still.

4) The One Ring being discovered cannnot be a secret (but also not common knowledge) among the Free People, lest secrecy be used to divide them (as is being attempted in Erebor).

I would also submit that part of Elrond’s wisdom is likely reminding him that he may not know all (e.g., Boromir is coming) and that the information presented may make him reconsider his plans.
 
Clueless Noob said:
Eru left sticky, jelly-doughnut-covered fingerprints all over Frodo
Click to expand...
Okay, first off, this line gave me a really good, full out loud chuckle, so thanks for that.


As for why hold a council at all - I don't know, but I have some thoughts which may be worth considering.

First off, let's look at some of the council's outcomes. Building on Flammifer's point, one outcome of the council is Frodo's realization that he has to take the Ring to Mount Doom and destroy it, and his volunteering to do so. Given what we know of Frodo, it's conceivable Elrond or Gandalf could have just told him, "this is your mission, you need to do it," and Frodo would have gone along. However, this way, he's heard all the information and can make an informed choice from within himself to take on this mission, rather than doing it because he's told to. I don't know enough about Catholic doctrine to say whether there's a religious or spiritual significance to this distinction, but psychologically, it may be critically important further down the line that Frodo comprehends the stakes involved and has taken personal ownership of the mission through his own choice, rather than doing it because a wise authority figure told him so. He may press on with greater determination because he has an internal conviction, and not just an external obligation.

That said, I don't like the notion that the Council is just a big puppet show put on by Gandalf and Elrond to lead Frodo to this choice. First because it seems overly elaborate, especially when you consider the first several reports of doings in the South were inconsequential to Frodo. One would think a mission briefing could get the job done as effectively. My second drawback here is that, while I don't consider Gandalf or Elrond above a little duplicity and manipulation in a good cause (Exhibit A: the Unexpected Party in Chapter 1 of The Hobbit), this scenario is more underhanded than I think we're supposed to interpret them.

One other outcome worth mentioning is that handily, seven of the eventual nine members of the Fellowship are able to meet each other and all have the same information on the Ring, its history, its properties, the danger it poses, how it must be dealt with, why other options won't work, etc.. Though again, a simple mission briefing could've gotten the same effect. Also, I don't think this outcome was intentional on Elrond's part, as in the book (unlike the live action film), he spends several days working out the roster for the Fellowship, and I doubt he would do that purely for show.


So what could motivate holding a council, rather than, say, a private discussion between Elrond and Gandalf where they work out the plan, then a briefing? These are all speculative, but here are a couple ideas:

1. They may doubt their own judgment. We think they both strongly suspect the outcome right off the bat, but part of their wisdom lies in recognizing they're neither omnipotent nor infallible. "We think we know what has to happen, but just to test our conclusions, since we've got a bunch of noteworthy people here anyway on different errands, let's gather them up, lay out the facts for them, let them deliberate those facts, and see whether another solution presents itself, or if a flaw in the plan arises that we didn't foresee."

In the live action film, the reaction shot of Gandalf after Frodo volunteers shows he knew it was always going to come to this, but was hoping he'd be proved wrong. The films are not canon, of course, but this seems a plausible interpretation given Gandalf's character and his penchant for trying to talk his way out of unpleasant truths regarding dangers to his Hobbit friends.

2. Even if they know beyond a reasonable doubt what the outcome must be, they may still find the discussion and deliberation process worthwhile to illuminate this truth for the other, less wise characters. Remember, Frodo isn't the only who will be asked to make a big commitment at the conclusion of the council. Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir must all be persuaded to participate in the quest (Gandalf and Aragorn already understand the necessity, and Sam and the other hobbits will follow Frodo regardless), and it can't hurt if Gloin is on board with his son going on a quest with a bunch of non-dwarves - including the son of Gloin's former jailer - that's expected to lead into the heart of the Dark Lord's realm.

Also, Galdor and Gloin will have to go back to their people and help them prepare, in different ways, for the coming darkness. Knowing of the Ring quest, and that they are part of a larger struggle against Sauron's evil, may give them hope (estel) and inspiration to face the coming trials. (This could apply to Boromir as well, though as we know from reading ahead, he won't live to bring the news to Minas Tirith, and Denethor seems like he wouldn't be impressed with the Ring quest even under the best circumstances.)

We in early 21st Century USA are brought up to prioritize short term outcomes arrived at by the quickest possible methods - often referred to as "efficiency" - and give less consideration to to how those outcomes are arrived at. However, in some cases, the way we arrive at a decision can make a profound difference in shaping how we understand that decision, and I think this is one such case.


@Kate Neville
As for parallels elsewhere in the Legendarium, I think the closest we have is actually the Last Alliance.

One could make the case that recapitulation comes later, after the Battle of Minas Tirith, in the army that sets out for the Black Gate to draw Sauron's attention away from Frodo and Sam. But I think the Council of Elrond is a closer fit. As in the Last Alliance, all the free peoples of Middle-earth have come together to overthrow the Dark Lord. This time, instead of armies, they each send a single champion (or a couple champions in the case of humans and hobbits) on a joint mission deep behind enemy lines. Different tactics, same solidarity. And again, the representatives of the disparate free peoples not taking part in the Fellowship will still go back to their people with the knowledge that even though their tasks are separate, it's ultimately all part of the same fight against the Dark Lord, and feeling they have some ownership over the plan for defeating him.
 
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