Elrond - One of the Moriquendi?

Enoch_Arden_5

New Member
As I was listening to ExLOTR episode 97, the topic came up of lords in Rivendell who could wield the One Ring. Elrond, unsurprisingly, was one of the ones who could presumably wield the Ring. Elrond is obviously a very powerful and very wise elf, possibly only surpassed in the Third Age by Galadriel, and yet Elrond is one of the Moriquendi. Elrond is descended from the Calaquendi on his father's side and Melian on his mother's side, so maybe he gets a pass, but he has still never been to the Blessed Realm and has never met the Valar. What exactly is his status? Where (if anywhere) does he fall short of the Calaquendi? If he is one of the Moriquendi, then does he not exist at once in both worlds like Glorfindel and the other High Elves? Is he even considered a High Elf? Does he still possess great power over both the seen and the unseen like the Calaquendi? It certainly appears like he does in the books, but it also doesn't appear to be specifically stated anywhere. I've read through the books multiple times, but it only just hit me recently that Elrond does not seem to meet the criteria for being a High Elf. What category does he fall into exactly? Thanks!
 

Anthony Lawther

Active Member
He falls into the category of Elrond.

He is the conjunction of all the major “bloodlines” of Arda including Maiar. Not only does he have Calaquendi ancestry, being the closest thing there is to a High King of the Noldor,but he descends from all three of the Houses of the Edain.

He is only comparable to his twin brother Elros, who choose mortality.
 

Kate Neville

Active Member
Hmm. His moriquendi blood would come from his grandmother, Deor's wife. Thingol was Calaquendi, having been to Valinor and returned. One might posit that the residents of Doriath could see the Light of Valinor in the face of Melian and so are demi-Calaquendi. And of course his mom had a Silmaril, so you could say he was born in the Light.
 

Kate Neville

Active Member
I also seem to recall that to be Moriquendi you have to have refused the initial invitation to Valinor. Don't have Silmarillion easily available, but I think there's a distinction.
 

Lincoln Alpern

Active Member
Clearly the difference between Calaquendi and Moriquendi - between those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm and experienced the light of the trees - is an important one. I think it's certainly the case that the Calaquendi as a group are of higher status than the Moriquendi as a group, but I've never been under the impression this was an absolute equation. I think of it the way men as a group tend to be taller than women as a group, but there's much greater variation within the groups than between them.

I also don't know whether the children of Calaquendi born outside of Valinor and after the death of the trees would themselves also be Calaquendi or Moriquendi. I would think the latter, because I don't get the impression the relationship to Valinor and the trees is inherited, but that's just a guess.
 

Forodan

Member
Hmm. His moriquendi blood would come from his grandmother, Deor's wife. Thingol was Calaquendi, having been to Valinor and returned. One might posit that the residents of Doriath could see the Light of Valinor in the face of Melian and so are demi-Calaquendi. And of course his mom had a Silmaril, so you could say he was born in the Light.
Yes, the residents of Doriath are called the Grey Elves (Sindar) precisely because of this intermediate state. They aren't outright "refusers" -- they were Teleri on the way to Valinor and sort of got side-tracked by Elwe's disappearance. The true Avari live much further east. (Maybe Thranduil's kingdom consists of mostly Avari?) Eventually Melian and Elwe/Thingol appeared out of the hyperspace bubble that she captured him in when the first wave of the Teleri were passing through the region that became Doriath, and set up a kingdom. Ruled by a major Maia and their own kinsman who had been to Valinor and seen the trees, they were elevated beyond the ordinary "refusers", but not as great as the true Caliquendi. Given the prevalence of Sindarin as the language of Elves in Middle-earth, we may presume that most of them are Sindarin. The true Noldor would be vary rare at this late stage of history.

I have often made the argument that Elrond is Caliquendi due to living in the light of a Silmaril for the first few decades of his life. But many people seem to think this is invalid, because seeing the Evening/Morning Star would then make you Caliquendi. It seems to me there is a huge difference between seeing a tiny sliver of light many miles away and having it in front of your face, but not everyone agrees.
 

Kate Neville

Active Member
Considering how few of the true Caliquendi are left in Middle-earth at the time of LotR, it does seem to be a moot point [or perhaps something to bring up at an Entmoot, as long as you're not in a hurry for a judgment]. I have always been more interested in who exactly falls into the category "The Wise" -- I'm pretty sure there are no men or dwarves or hobbits wearing the Badge of Wisdom, which seems to imply that you have to have at least a full Age under your belt to be even considered for membership.
 

Enoch_Arden_5

New Member
Yes, the residents of Doriath are called the Grey Elves (Sindar) precisely because of this intermediate state. They aren't outright "refusers" -- they were Teleri on the way to Valinor and sort of got side-tracked by Elwe's disappearance. The true Avari live much further east. (Maybe Thranduil's kingdom consists of mostly Avari?) Eventually Melian and Elwe/Thingol appeared out of the hyperspace bubble that she captured him in when the first wave of the Teleri were passing through the region that became Doriath, and set up a kingdom. Ruled by a major Maia and their own kinsman who had been to Valinor and seen the trees, they were elevated beyond the ordinary "refusers", but not as great as the true Caliquendi. Given the prevalence of Sindarin as the language of Elves in Middle-earth, we may presume that most of them are Sindarin. The true Noldor would be vary rare at this late stage of history.

I have often made the argument that Elrond is Caliquendi due to living in the light of a Silmaril for the first few decades of his life. But many people seem to think this is invalid, because seeing the Evening/Morning Star would then make you Caliquendi. It seems to me there is a huge difference between seeing a tiny sliver of light many miles away and having it in front of your face, but not everyone agrees.
I like that idea. I've often wondered just how much the silmarils affect the people around them. The only passage that comes to mind is when the elves at the havens refuse to give up the silmaril; I'm paraphrasing, but the passage says that it seems to them that the healing and blessing on their lands appeared to come from the silmaril. Unfortunately the silmarillion doesn't actually say if that's true (at least not that I recall).

I don't know if living in the presence of a silmaril is quite the same as living in sight of the trees though. It seems as if the silmarils are one removed from the trees. They carry the light of the trees, but they aren't the trees themselves. The moon reflects the light of the sun, but is not the sun itself. It seems like the silmarils captured a small portion of the light of the trees and give it back to whatever or to whomever is nearby. When Morgoth stabs the trees, Yavanna doesn't try to replace the trees with the silmarils, but rekindle them. They certainly seem to carry some of the power of trees, but maybe just on a far smaller scale. The Phial of Galadriel is one removed from the silmarils, and the silmarils are one removed from the trees.
 
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Flammifer

Well-Known Member
but he has still never been to the Blessed Realm and has never met the Valar.

Elrond has never been to the Blessed Realm (as far as we know), but it is quite possible that he has met the Valar.

Speaking of the hosts of Gil-galad and Elendil, Elrond says, "It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken." It is implied that Elrond witnessed
the host of the Valar in Middle-Earth. Now TLOTR does not mention (as far as I am aware) whether the Valar accompanied the host, but we might assume that they did, and thus Elrond met the Valar.

The other indication that Elrond might have met the Valar comes from the statement in Appendix A: "At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong." It is possible that the Valar delivered this choice by some other means than face to face, but it seems unlikely. So this is another possible indication that Elrond has met the Valar.
 
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