Elven Births

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I like that Finwes Age is left open in a way, that avoids contradictions for no reason.

1) true enough! I didn't think about it... all they know about is the Dark Hunter(s) but they are not sure about their identity, all they have is what the Valar told them.

And I#d even like Moegoth to mention the Dark Hunters and perils of Me at one point towards the Elves, as if he himself had absolutely nothing to do with it.

2) yes i already mentioned that. Cuivienen-Elves and Valinor-born would have different ways to think about that dark times.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Finwë is not 1st generation, because he did not awaken with his spouse. Likewise, Elwë has a brother and is not a 1st generation elf for this reason. So far, the only elves who are *explicitly* first generation are Ingwë and Iminyë, though of course other elves as Cuivienen would be as well (it's just not called out). Tatië is not the same elf, obviously, but her name is inspired by the name from the counting-tale of the first elves. Nurwen is not Elwë's lover. She is an elf who expresses some interest in him, but he is completely oblivious and does not give her the time of day. She figures that out and moves on. We needed some female elves in the ensemble at Cuivienen, so we chose to have her be our token female Teleri.

Iminyë, who was captured and killed by the Hunter, is present in Valmar when Melkor is released. She may have some qualms about that, but as that is a 'Valar-centric' episode rather than an 'elf-centric' episode, we don't really get to see much of the elf-reaction to Melkor's release. At any rate, he doesn't look like the Hunter.

We do have Melkor talking about the dangers of Middle Earth, and the 'monsters' that are there, in a very disconnected way (as if it's not his fault). And, if anyone were to call him on that, he would express remorse and a desire to fix it. He's laying on the repentant persona pretty thick.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I like the Idea that Iminye is present in Aman. But doesn't that -again - bring up question about the Cuivienen Elves and their distrust of Melkor?

So Finwe and Nurwe are just good friends.Releaves me quite a bit ;-).
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
obviously Aredhel and Eol are going to marry and have Maeglin during the Watchful Peace, which was when Andreth was told 'no'. Galadriel is going to meet Celeborn in Doriath (though we haven't decided when they marry).
Oooooh... we should be very, very careful about using Aredhel and Eol as a sign that it's "okay" to marry during that time by Noldor standards. That situation is.... fraught with uncomfortableness. But even disregarding the consent issues ("it is said that she was not wholly unwilling" does not erase the question/problem), Eol is rebuked by Curufin in part for failing to observe Noldor customs -- which, while this is not stated, could included proper times to wed/wait. Eol would never bother to wait to respect a Noldor tradition, and if we go with a willing Aredhel, she's a rulebreaker, so she might not care, either.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Elwë and Nurwen are not exactly 'friends' - she is one of the elves in his group, and she has a clear interest/crush on him....but when she realizes it is unreturned, she moves on. He is simply oblivious about her interest, so probably not a 'good friend' situation.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I would say that it is in the same category as Luthien and Daeron, but not nearly so extreme. Meaning, it's clear that Luthien and Daeron have spent a lot of quality one-on-one time together before the arrival of Beren. In our version, Nurwen only interacts with Elwë in group settings, and he's the leader, so she's 'one of the crowd' of Teleri followers. She's more of an Eponine 'but he never saw me there' type (but she obviously never meets Melian). So, there's no love triangle, there's merely a hint of what-might-have-been. Nurwen is a very minor character, but we wanted to see an elf change their mind during the Great Debate, so she goes from initially supporting Elwë in a c'mon, everyone, let's do this! and transitions to a....wait, there's really compelling reasons to stay. Her changing view of Elwë coincides with her changing view of go-or-stay? It also gives us an opportunity to contrast committed bachelor Elwë with newlywed Finwë so we can see how that dynamic starts to change their best buds relationship.

But the outline for Episode 3 is currently under review by the Execs, so it's possible they'll request alterations to all of this. We'll see.
 
I'm afraid I've been away so long that the boards are overwhelming... my work schedule prevented live participation in this entire season, and the podcasts have been all I've been able to manage. By the time I listen to one there are 10 more pages of comments piled up :(

But I've heard something mentioned several times that seems partly related to this thread - the idea of the maturation of the Eldar, and the dearth of information on the subject. There is actually a very tantalizing bit in Morgoth's Ring, "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar..." It's obviously too long to type here, but some major points of JRR's own thinking:

1. The Eldar "grew in bodily form slower than men, but in mind more swiftly."
2. "There was less difference between the two Kindreds...in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men."
3. "This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill"

Long story short - the Eldar could already walk, dance, and speak by the age of 1. But by the age of 3 men were growing faster physically. A roughly 18-20-year-old elf has a body like a mortal 7-year-old, but reasons like a mortal young adult. Elves took about 50 years to reach the 'suspended early adulthood' phase, and 100 years to become 'full-grown.' (These ages are drawn from the text, not imagined by me)

Herein lies the connection to this thread. The Eldar would 'normally' marry at around 50 (being quite intellectually mature, though physically behind men). Children would be born within a short space (in Eldar terms, not mortal ones - we would find it long) after marriage. As for the number and timing of their children, it was not limitless:
1. The Eldar cannot bear children at any random age - they do in fact have a limit (the timespan of Arda) and do reach an age where it is impractical, because:
2. The Eldar spend more of their spirit on childbearing than mortals, which limits their ability to conceive - Feanor's 7 sons is a rare exception. Seldom more than 4 in early generations, and even fewer in later ones.
3. The Eldar never actually lost the ability to conceive. However, after spending much energy 'begetting and bearing' a few children, their interest naturally turned to other things. (Tolkien's words: With regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable. Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things.)


This is admittedly an obscure text, and Christopher Tolkien has a hard time dating it. It could also present some jarring points to viewers who expect Elves and Mortal Men to age similarly. But, it's there to work with, if we want to. I know there's a desire not to portray the Elves as simply "men who don't die," but to reflect the fundamental difference of their relationship with time. So, it could be helpful.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I am going to continue using 'Laws and Customs' as a valid resource on the elves until I am told otherwise. So, yes, 50-100 years for maturity for an elf, and all the rest. Welcome back, and I hope you have a chance to poke around a bit!
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
i really love that text, but honestly i didn't find it very believable... i once tried to compute population stats for the elves and if combined with the text about the three elf fathets at cuivienen... id we took it literal even with high birth rates there would have hardly bern much more than 20.000 noldir and about 10.000 vanyar and less than 15.000 falmari after six generations... sixth generation is the generation of celebrimbor, orodrethand idril.
 
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