Oakfen Ripsaw
New Member
This seems the best explanation to me...
Shooting Star / Meteor
Explains nicely the Asfaloth: like a flash of white fire.
Shooting Star / Meteor
Explains nicely the Asfaloth: like a flash of white fire.
Episode 91: Asfaloth's flash of white fire
- Thread starter Oakfen Ripsaw
- Start date
A Flash of White Fire
New Member
As prof. Corey puts it: the sentence describes a close call both physically and spiritually.
As prof. Corey points out: "like a flash of white fire," doesn't describe the linear speed, because that's already being described in the next segment "the elf-horse speeding as if on wings". No need to repeat this.
However, those wings are already a reiteration of Asfaloth's speed, because the previous sentence stated: "The wind whistled in his ears, and the bells upon the harness rang wild and shrill." These are two linear speed indications.
And in between is yet another speed indication: "as with a last spurt".
So, there was a need to emphasize the speed, but what is in between of those speed indications?
Answer: the physical/spiritual fight and the weapons used:
- "A breath of deadly cold pierced him like a spear,"
- "like a flash of white fire," seems to me the physical/spiritual weapon that counters the Witch King and his attack
The spiritual weapon of the Witch King is focused, sharp and deadly cold.
Is a shooting star / meteor sudden or flashy enough? Less than a lightning, because we see it coming, unlike a lightning.
However, the image I get is that of a flamethrower. This fits with prof. Corey's observations:
+/- 1:51:40 "Then BOOM there's a fire. Like those fireworks. Yes, the flash of lightning is very fast. Exactly Luke, it's about suddenness, it's not about linear speed."
Whereas the cold piercing breath is like a spear that threatens to take Frodo to the wraith world, the flash of white fire is like a sudden burst of flame/lightning that risks burning the Witch King. It could end him, because that wouldn't be an end "by the hand of man."
When JRR Tolkien joined the army, the Germans had started using flame throwers against the French and British.
It quickly became one of the most dreaded weapons of WW1. At least Tolkien must have heard a lot of stories, discussions about how horrible a weapon it was.
He couldn't describe it like that, given the time period he's writing about, and anyway Frodo is perceiving all this through closed eyes!
Even though we close our eyes we still can perceive some light. It suffices to close your eyes and turn your head towards a source of light, like the sun, and you'll notice the difference.
We don't know what the Witch King saw (a sudden burst of flame or a lightning), but through closed eyes Frodo could still perceive the [divine?] reaction to the threat of the deadly cold that was piercing Frodo like a spear.
It was a protective fire suddenly surrounding Asfaloth and Frodo and nearly burning the Witch King, because it "passed right before the face of the foremost Rider."
It was an extremely close call for Frodo, and there's no more mention of any effect of that deadly cold breath piercing him like a spear.
it was also an extremely close call for the Witch King, because his face was almost burned away.
Did he hold back in the last femtosecond, thereby saving himself? In other words did a reflex for self-preservation undo his nearly successful strike at Frodo?
There are two contrasts in the types of weapons used, as far as we can deduce from the similes:
- cold, sharp and focused at piercing Frodo, versus
- hot [?] and focused at blocking the attack, because the direction of the fire is across the opponent, not at the opponent: it's rather like a shield, but a shield can still hurt if you bang your face into it.
So reading those two sentences together gives the following:
- speed indication "The wind whistled in his ears"
- speed indication "and the bells upon the harness rang wild and shrill"
- attack: "A breath of deadly cold pierced him like a spear"
- speed indication "as with a last spurt"
- defense/counter-attack "like a flash of white fire"
- speed indication "the elf-horse speeding as if on wings"
- closeness of the call FOR BOTH parties: "passed right before the face of the foremost Rider"
The next sentence indicates to Frodo that he made it: "Frodo heard the splash of water [...] He was across the Ford"
If read like a defense/counter-attack that also was a close call for the Witch King, then it is testament to the latter's perseverance and courage* that he dared to cross the Ford right after having his face almost burned by trying to take out Frodo. Although, we do not know what the Witch King saw, assuming that he had his eyes open.
* As an antagonist it's good writing that the Ring Wraiths would share some qualities with the Hobbits as protagonists, especially the Witch King versus Frodo and Sam. It accentuates what makes them different.
[I'm catching up with the discussions at an average rate of 1 episode per evening, and just finished episode 91, started episode 92.
No LOTRO explorations given that I'm no gamer and am doing some household chores while listening to prof. Corey's comments.
So, I still have quite a few months before I could catch up with a life session if held at an hour doable for a European.]
As prof. Corey points out: "like a flash of white fire," doesn't describe the linear speed, because that's already being described in the next segment "the elf-horse speeding as if on wings". No need to repeat this.
However, those wings are already a reiteration of Asfaloth's speed, because the previous sentence stated: "The wind whistled in his ears, and the bells upon the harness rang wild and shrill." These are two linear speed indications.
And in between is yet another speed indication: "as with a last spurt".
So, there was a need to emphasize the speed, but what is in between of those speed indications?
Answer: the physical/spiritual fight and the weapons used:
- "A breath of deadly cold pierced him like a spear,"
- "like a flash of white fire," seems to me the physical/spiritual weapon that counters the Witch King and his attack
The spiritual weapon of the Witch King is focused, sharp and deadly cold.
Is a shooting star / meteor sudden or flashy enough? Less than a lightning, because we see it coming, unlike a lightning.
However, the image I get is that of a flamethrower. This fits with prof. Corey's observations:
+/- 1:51:40 "Then BOOM there's a fire. Like those fireworks. Yes, the flash of lightning is very fast. Exactly Luke, it's about suddenness, it's not about linear speed."
Whereas the cold piercing breath is like a spear that threatens to take Frodo to the wraith world, the flash of white fire is like a sudden burst of flame/lightning that risks burning the Witch King. It could end him, because that wouldn't be an end "by the hand of man."
When JRR Tolkien joined the army, the Germans had started using flame throwers against the French and British.
It quickly became one of the most dreaded weapons of WW1. At least Tolkien must have heard a lot of stories, discussions about how horrible a weapon it was.
He couldn't describe it like that, given the time period he's writing about, and anyway Frodo is perceiving all this through closed eyes!
Even though we close our eyes we still can perceive some light. It suffices to close your eyes and turn your head towards a source of light, like the sun, and you'll notice the difference.
We don't know what the Witch King saw (a sudden burst of flame or a lightning), but through closed eyes Frodo could still perceive the [divine?] reaction to the threat of the deadly cold that was piercing Frodo like a spear.
It was a protective fire suddenly surrounding Asfaloth and Frodo and nearly burning the Witch King, because it "passed right before the face of the foremost Rider."
It was an extremely close call for Frodo, and there's no more mention of any effect of that deadly cold breath piercing him like a spear.
it was also an extremely close call for the Witch King, because his face was almost burned away.
Did he hold back in the last femtosecond, thereby saving himself? In other words did a reflex for self-preservation undo his nearly successful strike at Frodo?
There are two contrasts in the types of weapons used, as far as we can deduce from the similes:
- cold, sharp and focused at piercing Frodo, versus
- hot [?] and focused at blocking the attack, because the direction of the fire is across the opponent, not at the opponent: it's rather like a shield, but a shield can still hurt if you bang your face into it.
So reading those two sentences together gives the following:
- speed indication "The wind whistled in his ears"
- speed indication "and the bells upon the harness rang wild and shrill"
- attack: "A breath of deadly cold pierced him like a spear"
- speed indication "as with a last spurt"
- defense/counter-attack "like a flash of white fire"
- speed indication "the elf-horse speeding as if on wings"
- closeness of the call FOR BOTH parties: "passed right before the face of the foremost Rider"
The next sentence indicates to Frodo that he made it: "Frodo heard the splash of water [...] He was across the Ford"
If read like a defense/counter-attack that also was a close call for the Witch King, then it is testament to the latter's perseverance and courage* that he dared to cross the Ford right after having his face almost burned by trying to take out Frodo. Although, we do not know what the Witch King saw, assuming that he had his eyes open.
* As an antagonist it's good writing that the Ring Wraiths would share some qualities with the Hobbits as protagonists, especially the Witch King versus Frodo and Sam. It accentuates what makes them different.
[I'm catching up with the discussions at an average rate of 1 episode per evening, and just finished episode 91, started episode 92.
No LOTRO explorations given that I'm no gamer and am doing some household chores while listening to prof. Corey's comments.
So, I still have quite a few months before I could catch up with a life session if held at an hour doable for a European.]
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Hi 'Like a Flash of White Fire',
Interesting interpretation. A Flash of white fire could indicate a spiritual defence. But, I'm not sure that it does.
"as with a last spurt, like a flash of white fire, the elf-horse speeding as if on wings, passed right before the face of the foremost Rider."
What was 'like a flash of white fire'? The 'last spurt' was 'like a flash of white fire'. It is clear from the grammar of the sentence that the simile is depicting the 'spurt' of Asfaloth. That a sudden accelerating burst of speed from a white horse 'speeding as if on wings' could be compared to 'a flash of white fire', should not be surprising.
Now, it could be that the 'flash of white fire' was meant to indicate a spiritual defence. The simpler, and more obvious interpretation, however, is that it was just meant to give a vivid picture of Asfaloth's sudden spurt. It was, perhaps, this blaze of speed which prevented the 'breath of deadly cold', which 'pierced (Frodo) like a spear', from doing more damage.
Interesting interpretation. A Flash of white fire could indicate a spiritual defence. But, I'm not sure that it does.
"as with a last spurt, like a flash of white fire, the elf-horse speeding as if on wings, passed right before the face of the foremost Rider."
What was 'like a flash of white fire'? The 'last spurt' was 'like a flash of white fire'. It is clear from the grammar of the sentence that the simile is depicting the 'spurt' of Asfaloth. That a sudden accelerating burst of speed from a white horse 'speeding as if on wings' could be compared to 'a flash of white fire', should not be surprising.
Now, it could be that the 'flash of white fire' was meant to indicate a spiritual defence. The simpler, and more obvious interpretation, however, is that it was just meant to give a vivid picture of Asfaloth's sudden spurt. It was, perhaps, this blaze of speed which prevented the 'breath of deadly cold', which 'pierced (Frodo) like a spear', from doing more damage.