Finduilas and Fate in Túrin's Story

[Odola]

This above is a strange argument as in the biblical stories Abraham is described as married to his half-sister Sarah and this did not cause God's anger. But in mythology marrying/coming together with very close kin (most often sisters or half-sisters) is often reported for divine and semi-devine figures of various cultures and is there most often one of the markers of their divine or demi-devine status. Sometimes - in later stories - it is an effect of a curse and a lack of blessing or a punishment for some previous wrong doing but if done unwittingly it seldom results in such?

I do not think the story of king Arthur - which re-uses ancient cultural images and plays with the ancient and contemporary concepts of "semi-devine" kingship (the former of which included the so called "royal-incest" - see the citation below) can be compared with the story of Turin where the incest is used to stress the tragedy of being cursed by Morgoth? Turin is not a king and not even on his way to become one.

In 1558, in Spanish Peru, the Inka princess Cusi Huarcay married her brother, Sayri Thupa, with the blessing of the Catholic bishop of Cuzco, carrying the Inka tradition of sibling marriage into the colonial era. In 1570, King Philip V of Spain married his niece Anna of Austria, the daughter of his cousin and his sister. Each marriage reflected a royal practice of close-kin marriage forbidden to ordinary people, in Peru just as in Europe. Scholars have never seen them as comparable: on the one hand, the apparent magical thinking of the Inkas, who believed kings were descended from the Sun and should not pollute their blood with outsiders; on the other the apparent pragmatism of European monarchs, for whom endogamy was a tool in geopolitical strategy. In fact, there was pragmatism behind the magic and magic behind the pragmatism. In both kingdoms, close-kin marriage was a way that kings and queens sacralized themselves through breaking the most intimate and dangerous of laws.

[CANCELLED] Friday Seminar: "Blood Weddings: the Inkas, the Habsburgs, and Royal Incest" | UCLA Cotsen Institute of Archaeology

NOTE: This Friday Seminar has been cancelled. Speaker: Dr. Jeremy Mumford, Assistant Professor, Department of History, Brown University

ioa.ucla.edu

We have genetic confirmation for "royal-houses" of Neolithic Europe already practicizing "royal-incest". But this is not what Turin's story is about.

Researchers found evidence of inbreeding in the genome of a man buried at Newgrange passage tomb, which was built more than 5,000 years ago, a team from Trinity College Dublin said in a press release.
This suggests the man belonged to a ruling elite that practiced first-degree incest – for example, brother-sister unions – in the same way as the pharaohs in ancient Egypt or Inca god-kings, the researchers said.

Ancient Irish elite practiced incest, new genetic data from Neolithic tomb shows | CNN

Members of the ancient Irish elite practiced first-degree incest, archaeologists and geneticists analyzing genetic material from a series of Neolithic tombs have discovered.

edition.cnn.com

Now, DNA from a middle-aged man buried in 3200 B.C.E. at the center of this mighty mound suggests otherwise. His genes indicate he had parents so closely related they must have been brother and sister or parent and child.

Across cultures, incest is almost always taboo—except in inbred royal families.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[MithLuin]

If your argument is that incest is culturally acceptable in royalty of various cultures, so King Arthur should be an exception to the taboo against it, I understand what you are saying, but don't necessarily think that Mallory agreed with that interpretation of the situation. Nancy's observation is an interpretation of Mallory's tale, not an argument about whether or not the wrath of God is fair!



Túrin is heir to the lordship of Dor-lómin, though he never holds that role. He is defacto leader of Brethil, though not recognized as having any claim to that position. So, we are agreed that he is not a king. Any 'special allowance' kings may have to engage in incest would not apply to Túrin.


But this is really not limited to the narrow case of incest. More significantly, we see few if any cases of characters in Tolkien's stories engaging in anything but faithful, monogamous marriages. Separations are rare, and divorce and remarriage practically unheard of. Anyone involved in an out of the ordinary relationship is generally given judgement by the narrator. In that context, a 'special exception' for royal incest doesn't seem to exist in Middle-earth. Many relationships that are seen as commonplace in history simply do not appear in these tales. There is no woman who has had 5 husbands, or bastard sons, or anything like that. Can you think of a single story about someone being unfaithful to a spouse in Middle-earth?

Such 'out of the ordinary' relationships we do get include:

• the woman Túrin saves from the outlaws - it is implied that he interrupted a rape, and she offers herself to him in gratitude. Nothing about that sequence is considered 'acceptable', and Túrin is judged right to put a stop to all of that.
• The remarriage of Finwë after the death of Míriel - he was not seeking permission to divorce, but permission to choose a new wife since his original wife delayed her return. Permission was only granted with the stipulation that Míriel would never leave Mandos, and only to Finwë. Elves cannot remarry after the death of a spouse.
• Maeglin's interest in his first cousin Idril - It is explicitly stated in the text that elves do not marry such close kin...and she is a king's daughter. If their were an allowance for royalty to break that taboo, it would apply in this situation. Instead, no mention of an exception is made in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar,' which repeats the prohibition against marrying first cousins.
• Erendis and Aldarion - their separation becomes permanent, but neither party remarries. It's a sad story, but one in which alternate lovers are distinctly absent.
• Ar-Pharazon and Tar-Míriel - we know his marriage to her was primarily to gain the throne. We also know that they were first cousins and she was forced into the marriage. Presumably, such a marriage was not typically allowed under Númenorean law, so then the question remains if the 'exception' made for them had any kind of external blessing or acceptance by society, or if it was viewed as a terrible thing the king did, but no one had the power to stop him. The narrator of the Akallabeth certainly views the action as evil.
• Mithrellas and the first Prince of Dol Amroth - she leaves him after they have children, so is this 'an affair'? Or is she simply afraid to watch him die but remains alone after? We don't really know what happened to her, so there's no evidence of serial relationships.

In other words - historical relationship standards are not necessarily what Tolkien was using when writing his stories. Not a lot of affairs mentioned in his court intrigue, right?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

If your argument is that incest is culturally acceptable in royalty of various cultures, so King Arthur should be an exception to the taboo against it, I understand what you are saying, but don't necessarily think that Mallory agreed with that interpretation of the situation. Nancy's observation is an interpretation of Mallory's tale, not an argument about whether or not the wrath of God is fair!



Túrin is heir to the lordship of Dor-lómin, though he never holds that role. He is defacto leader of Brethil, though not recognized as having any claim to that position. So, we are agreed that he is not a king. Any 'special allowance' kings may have to engage in incest would not apply to Túrin.


But this is really not limited to the narrow case of incest. More significantly, we see few if any cases of characters in Tolkien's stories engaging in anything but faithful, monogamous marriages. Separations are rare, and divorce and remarriage practically unheard of. Anyone involved in an out of the ordinary relationship is generally given judgement by the narrator. In that context, a 'special exception' for royal incest doesn't seem to exist in Middle-earth. Many relationships that are seen as commonplace in history simply do not appear in these tales. There is no woman who has had 5 husbands, or bastard sons, or anything like that. Can you think of a single story about someone being unfaithful to a spouse in Middle-earth?

Such 'out of the ordinary' relationships we do get include:

• the woman Túrin saves from the outlaws - it is implied that he interrupted a rape, and she offers herself to him in gratitude. Nothing about that sequence is considered 'acceptable', and Túrin is judged right to put a stop to all of that.
• The remarriage of Finwë after the death of Míriel - he was not seeking permission to divorce, but permission to choose a new wife since his original wife delayed her return. Permission was only granted with the stipulation that Míriel would never leave Mandos, and only to Finwë. Elves cannot remarry after the death of a spouse.
• Maeglin's interest in his first cousin Idril - It is explicitly stated in the text that elves do not marry such close kin...and she is a king's daughter. If their were an allowance for royalty to break that taboo, it would apply in this situation. Instead, no mention of an exception is made in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar,' which repeats the prohibition against marrying first cousins.
• Erendis and Aldarion - their separation becomes permanent, but neither party remarries. It's a sad story, but one in which alternate lovers are distinctly absent.
• Ar-Pharazon and Tar-Míriel - we know his marriage to her was primarily to gain the throne. We also know that they were first cousins and she was forced into the marriage. Presumably, such a marriage was not typically allowed under Númenorean law, so then the question remains if the 'exception' made for them had any kind of external blessing or acceptance by society, or if it was viewed as a terrible thing the king did, but no one had the power to stop him. The narrator of the Akallabeth certainly views the action as evil.
• Mithrellas and the first Prince of Dol Amroth - she leaves him after they have children, so is this 'an affair'? Or is she simply afraid to watch him die but remains alone after? We don't really know what happened to her, so there's no evidence of serial relationships.

In other words - historical relationship standards are not necessarily what Tolkien was using when writing his stories. Not a lot of affairs mentioned in his court intrigue, right?

I can’t think of a single case of extra-marital relations.

 

[Odola]

If your argument is that incest is culturally acceptable in royalty of various cultures, so King Arthur should be an exception to the taboo against it, I understand what you are saying, but don't necessarily think that Mallory agreed with that interpretation of the situation. Nancy's observation is an interpretation of Mallory's tale, not an argument about whether or not the wrath of God is fair!

Is this not what Nancy's post says:

"In which case he should be mad at Morgause - since she knew darned well he was her brother."

So she is commenting on a perceived fairness.

In my opinion the "semi-divine kingship" concept is such an integral part in any rendition of king Arthur's story that it renders a comparision to Turin's story simply not feasible.

 

[Odola]

• Maeglin's interest in his first cousin Idril - It is explicitly stated in the text that elves do not marry such close kin...and she is a king's daughter. If their were an allowance for royalty to break that taboo, it would apply in this situation. Instead, no mention of an exception is made in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar,' which repeats the prohibition against marrying first cousins.

Idril was not to be queen as a daughter and Maeglin was not of the House of Turgon as such not due to be king. So the "royal incest" exception does not apply.

Still there were some very close kin marriages in e.g. Elrond's own bloodline. He marries his own grandmother's first cousin whose parents are 2nd cousins to each other and who are both near kin to his great-grandfather. If you sum this up - this is very close indeed.

• Aldarion

- what he did on his long voyages nobody knows. It is traditionally told about sailors that a sailor has a woman in each port that he visits...
His story serves actually as a warning that "outbreeding is problematic and should not be attempted" - at least this is the lesson that Numenor learns from it.

• Ar-Pharazon and Tar-Míriel - we know his marriage to her was primarily to gain the throne.

Still the union is considered valid even if it is a repeat of Idril and Maeglin. So clearly humans do not follow elvish customs here.

• Mithrellas and the first Prince of Dol Amroth - she leaves him after they have children, so is this 'an affair'? Or is she simply afraid to watch him die but remains alone after? We don't really know what happened to her, so there's no evidence of serial relationships.

After he dies, as he cannot be reembodied, she is free to marry anybody as a true widow anyway.

In other words - historical relationship standards are not necessarily what Tolkien was using when writing his stories. Not a lot of affairs mentioned in his court intrigue, right?

There are things implied between the lines but not spelled out.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

So, what in your mind prompts Túrin to fall on his sword when these close... relations are accepted by society?

 

[Odola]

So, what in your mind prompts Túrin to fall on his sword when these close... relations are accepted by society?

What is "accepted by society" by a band of outlaws?

And my opposition to compare Turin's story to king's Arthur's is exactly based on the very fact that the element that makes incest in Arthur's story part of the general "semi-divine kingship" concept is lacking in Turin's. This would be different in mother-son incest like in Oedipus. That seems far stronger generally opposed even in traditional myths than brother-sister.

But looking in-story: Turin has not been socialised by humans into adulthood. He generalny seems completely confused in his moral outlook. He seems to follows a sort of warrior honour code - that is never defined in-story - but in a very random and capricious way. Some of the motivations described for him seems like a projection of later norms (Numenor?) on a former time.
And being an outlaw does mean that you are "outside of law" anyway.

Turin's sword accusses him of the murder of Beleg as far I do remember, not of the incest.

Turin's main problem seems to be the acute failure to protect those under his care - the women of his house. Nienor killed herself - because of his of thoughtlessness. Kulervo actually confesses to his mother of having slept with the girl who then killed herself as the result of it and has then turned out to have been his own little sister. Could you imagine Turin to be willing to face his mother and having to admit to her that he was one of the main factors that drove his little sister to commit suicide? It would be the utmost humilation.

And there is a general unwilligness to face responsibility for all the consequences of his impulsivness and lack of thinking before acting in Turin. Just like in Kullervo. Kullervo is fed up with himself at the end of his story - but unwilling to change - he prefers to kill himself than to invest the hard work to learn some self-restraint - and Turin seems to have inherited part of this attitude:

"If I cannot be good just by being myself, if I have to work hard to learn to be good, if I have to admit to myself and publicly to others that I've have been wrong, if I have to endure having "lost face" in front of all, than it is better not to be at all."

 

[Odola]

Here a nice discussion of several stories of incest from Irish mythology - connected to the Newgrange find - also to show what Tolkien could have meant when he said he wants his own mythology "purged from the gross" - as those tales must have been well known Tolkien his Turin-Nienor story also written in contrast to those:

- discussion starts 20:59