Finrod/Sauron Song Battle

Rob Harding said:
I think it’s more symbolically for the audience to see Sauron creating ultimate destruction but Finrod trying to bring something out of it. Only for Sauron to consume it in darkness as he kills Finrod.
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But he does not kill him yet? Finrod dies saving Beren in the prison cell? Or has this been changed?
 
Rob Harding said:
Ah sorry I was trying to be metaphorical. As in, Sauron consumes Finrod’s world with darkness because he kills him.
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Ah, sorry. In a context where people literaly can get killed at any moment it is safer to use methaphors which are a little more removed from this topic imho. 😉
 
kanji_d said:
One thing I really want to see happen here is to have (somewhat as in the Ainulindale!) Finrod take Sauron's themes and bring them into his own, as the Ainur take Melkor's themes and bring them into the greater themes of Iluvatar.
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Oh absolutely, their duel should absolutely be reminiscent of the dynamics of the Music, but in a more concrete way, now connected to Arda and the parts of the song that have transpired. Finrod also consistently seems to be very good about understanding and using other people's language and music, so he isn't badly prepared, but Sauron knows how to pinpoint weaknesses, exploit hubris and deceive/twist. They have a bit different motivations and methods than eru and melkor, but the way their songs interact seems similar.
 
Kathrin said:
Oh absolutely, their duel should absolutely be reminiscent of the dynamics of the Music, but in a more concrete way, now connected to Arda and the parts of the song that have transpired. Finrod also consistently seems to be very good about understanding and using other people's language and music, so he isn't badly prepared, but Sauron knows how to pinpoint weaknesses, exploit hubris and deceive/twist. They have a bit different motivations and methods than eru and melkor, but the way their songs interact seems similar.
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Still I think it must be visible why Finrod loses. He cannot transcend his own tradition - which is about a slow but inevitable decline, amplified even more by the Doom of the Noldor, and he stays trapped within and is unable to move beyond, unable to let the past be past and put his trust in the future. Finrod himself a an elf has no own claim on the hope that is to come. This is why he is ready to sacrifice his live for Beren later, because he is aware that Beren - even if seemingly far weaker - is by nature able to access the future's hope which he himself cannot. The future's hope that also later Luthien chooses over her own tradition. The distinction should not be muddled to much imho otherwise Luthien's choice later becomes not understandable.

That is the tragedy of the elves - the source of their power is the past - and the future is bleak for them.
 
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Odola said:
Still I think it must be visible why Finrod loses. He cannot transcend his own tradition - which is about a slow but inevitable decline, amplified even more by the Doom of the Noldor, and he stays trapped within and is unable to move beyond, unable to let the past be past and put his trust in the future. Finrod himself a an elf has no own claim on the hope that is to come. This is why he is ready to sacrifice his live for Beren later, because he is aware that Beren - even if seemingly far weaker - is by nature able to access the future's hope which he himself cannot. The future's hope that also later Luthien chooses over her own tradition. The distinction should not be muddled to much imho otherwise Luthien's choice later becomes not understandable.

That is the tragedy of the elves - the source of their power is the past - and the future is bleak for them.
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The problem here is we need to iron out what the central themes and motifs of the season are. To muddy the waters with too many concepts and meanings means issues like this are really hard to pin down. We need to know what the season is about. I think the future hope of humanity vs the backward looking doomed nature of elves isn't something that's been strictly discussed elsewhere regarding this season so doesn't make a whole lot of sense to highlight in one highly visual moment. It needs to feed into the characters, scene and established themes. If we go for these themes, that's fine, I think they work. But we need consistency.
 
Rob Harding said:
The problem here is we need to iron out what the central themes and motifs of the season are. To muddy the waters with too many concepts and meanings means issues like this are really hard to pin down. We need to know what the season is about. I think the future hope of humanity vs the backward looking doomed nature of elves isn't something that's been strictly discussed elsewhere regarding this season so doesn't make a whole lot of sense to highlight in one highly visual moment. It needs to feed into the characters, scene and established themes. If we go for these themes, that's fine, I think they work. But we need consistency.
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We had the Athrabeth last season when Finrod himslef discussed that very matter and those elements have been hinted at. We do not have to flesh this out this time but should at least not openly contradict it - even if I do think making it more explicit it would make Luthien more understandable - what her "release from bandage" ist - the release from the elvish doom to decline together with Arda. But even if we do not stress that element this time, it should not be outwardly contradicted as this element is central to Tolkien's understanding of elves and we will encounter it again in the series sooner or later.

It is important to consider what we want to be the stressed reason for Finrod's failure in the song battle here - in spite of all his personal greatness. The Fall of the Noldor? He is not a Feanorian and only partially personally involved in that. Also this has little relevance for the Beren and Luthien story. But if the reason is a natural limitation of elvish nature then it becomes clear why protecting Beren is so important that several great elves give up their immortal lives for him in prison - and why in the end Luthien prefers a human fate above her own.
 
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Obviously, a rap battle 😛


Okay, okay, obviously NOT a rap battle. But a back-and-forth singing duel is flyting, and flyting is rap battles, so...that concept. Just a different musical style.

The idea of a musical duel is not exactly new.

 
We cannot really do much martial arts, though i think they might fight with weapons too...

Sauron probably would use is staff/mace...

What weapon would Finrod wear? And does he use his harp in battle?

I don't thimk we wanna use fireballs and lightning, but shadow and illusiin i guess we could:

 
MithLuin said:
Obviously, a rap battle 😛


Okay, okay, obviously NOT a rap battle. But a back-and-forth singing duel is flyting, and flyting is rap battles, so...that concept. Just a different musical style.

The idea of a musical duel is not exactly new.

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We cannot really do much martial arts, though i think they might fight with weapons too...

Sauron probably would use is staff/mace...

What weapon would Finrod wear? And does he use his harp in battle?

I don't thimk we wanna use fireballs and lightning, but shadow and illusiin i guess we could:

 
Haerangil, I think we are decided that this is a confrontational song battle, and is not going to involve a magical fight with special effects. I imagine it ends with Finrod crumpling at Sauron's feet.
 
MithLuin said:
Haerangil, I think we are decided that this is a confrontational song battle, and is not going to involve a magical fight with special effects. I imagine it ends with Finrod crumpling at Sauron's feet.
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I think Haerangal is trying to establish what ‘confrontational song battle’ looks like on screen that isn’t just two people singing. Special effects are used in everything from eye colouration to sky replacement so saying no special effects is a very wide statement to make. Establishing what magic effects songs have in the world is important, what visual flavour it has is important - even if it’s someone getting a nosebleed. I think it’s really important to establish something unique though so viewers know at a glance that they are looking at a middle earth song fight, not eleven from stranger things or Scott pilgrim or les Mis. Establishing those rules and that look on screen creates what our magic is. Song has to be at the heart though. It isn’t telekinesis. But what is it instead? Just a strand progression of close ups on each singer as they sing harder and harder doesn’t seem very dramatic or visually original. I still like the idea of the singers being stationary but the world someone being manipulated or projected around them. Singing images that consume and overtake the others’. And then dissipate when the song is through. As if they were never there but still had an effect on the singers, so you know it was the song that mattered.
 
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