Full Council script?

Bruce N H

Bruce N H

Active Member
Hi all,

Listening to last week's Exploring (session 193), when Merry and Pippin were saying that Bilbo, Frodo and Sam were in there for hours, that got me thinking about the actual length of the council. Has anyone scripted out a full council and timed it? I'm not just saying the words we actually get in the chapter. This could be a fun project and would involve inventing a lot of dialog and probably several new characters for the unnamed Rivendell elves, as they get news from around Middle Earth at the start, Frodo tells about the trip from Bag End to Rivendell, with the others questioning and debating every step of the way, and Bilbo giving his story including every riddle. Then we could stage a dramatic reading, and get a feel for the actual timing. Does such a thing exist?

Bruce
 
As someone who attended Mythmoot, I can say definitively that yes, such a recording has been made. But I am not involved in that project, and don't have details.
 
Yes, Bruce, I and a hobbit warren of friends eleven years ago proposed doing the C of E chapter and we worked out a script.... I think it would take about 2-2.5 hrs, if I remember right. 45 pages. Some added narration. See attached PDF But we never actually did it.
If you are interested, the best reading of LotR is by one Phil Dragash on InternetArchive -- he does all the voices, with sound effects and Shore's music. he takes 1:36:15 with a straight read through of the C of E chapter.
 

Attachments

  • Council of Elrond -Revised Script - added voices - Copperplate.pdf
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Hey Timdalf,

Really cool. I'm going to have to read that closely. I note, though, that this script still includes many narrator segments:

"Much was told of events in the world outside, especially in the South, and in the wide lands east of the mountains."

"They all listened while Elrond spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power, and their forging in the Second Age of the world long ago. Many eyes were turned to Elrond in fear and wonder as he told of the Elven smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and their eagerness for knowledge, by which Sauron ensnared them. "

"To some there Bilbo’s tale was new, and they listened with amazement while the old hobbit recounted his adventure with Gollum, at full length. He did not omit a single riddle. "

"Then, less willingly than Bilbo, Frodo told of all his dealings with the Ring from the day that it passed into his keeping. Every step of his journey from Hobbiton to the Ford of Bruinen was questioned and considered, and everything that he could recall concerning the Black Riders was examined. "

So the 2-2.5 hour estimate is probably missing by about half. If we assume that first discussion of events in the wide world was ~30 minutes (total guess there, as all of this would have to be made up from scratch). Another 15 or so for Elrond's tale (we could probably estimate the time by reading aloud selected sections from the appendices or Unfinished Tales), maybe 20-30 for Bilbo (again, we could estimate the time by reading aloud the Riddles in the Dark chapter, but surely Bilbo hammed it up some). But it's the last part that could have been really long. If you just read aloud selected passages for "every step" of Frodo's journey that could easily be an hour. Sure, we're getting Frodo's telling rather than the full book, so he would have left out lots that we get in the full text, but as Bilbo says "There are whole chapters of stuff before you ever got here!" But, also as Bilbo says, the others kept interrupting; they questioned and debated everything, which could easily triple the length.

So maybe 5 hours?

Bruce
 
Further thinking on this. I just posted another thread about Elladan and Elrohir. They were surely at the Council, even though they are not mentioned. They arrived the night before with tidings of the outside world (remember Strider skipped the feast to go hear what they had to say). There also were probably a few Lorien elves, as Arwen had "lately returned to her father's house". So if we were to recreate a full script including the missing bits, we'd have to include some speaking roles for these. Surely E and E and some hypothetical Lorien elves would be part of the discussion of "events in the world outside, especially in the South, and in the wide lands east of the Mountains".

We would have to include a couple of other Mirkwood elves and a couple of dwarves with speaking roles. Legolas probably came with a delegation, also Gloin. Sure, those two would be the heads of their respective delegations and would do most of the talking but probably a few other comments from the others.

Maybe one of Gildor's people as well - we know he sent tidings east. He tells Frodo "we will send our messages through the lands. The Wandering Companies shall know of your journey." And later in Bree Strider says "It was the Elven-folk of Gildor that told me [about Frodo leaving Bag End, also about the Riders and about Gandalf's absence]" Glorfindel tells Frodo "Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could." So unless this was a game of telephone where Gildor's folk told Tom who told the Rangers who told a squirrel who went to Rivendell, at least some of Gildor's folk traveled all of the way to Rivendell. Elrond send out help in all directions and Glorfindel left Rivendell on October 9, per the Tale of Years. So it's a good chance a few of the Gildorian elves are still there. A full script could include one of them greeting Frodo, saying how happy they were that he had made it. They would also be part of that discussion where they debated every step of Frodo's journey, giving the elvish POV on that portion of the journey.
 
Bruce, if one wants to invent out of whole cloth non-canonical interpolations beyond the text that Tolkien has given us, fine. We wanted to keep strictly to what is reported in the Tolkien text. Those narrative portions are just slight rephrasing of his narrative connector bits. To try and guess in the mode of fanfic what was supposedly said or how long the Council lasted as if every word had been taken down in dictation is pure speculation and it seems to me rather pointless, honestly. One can invent participants and reports or comments at will. But that is not being faithful to the Tolkien text. Fill in any number of blanks or summary narrations all you want. But that has no serious basis, in my view. That was not our intent or goal. I thought by a full script you meant keeping strictly to Tolkien and scripting that fully. What is the point of inventing material and "timing" that?
 
I think that you are both asking different questions. 'How long would it take actors to perform Tolkien's text?' is one question. 'How long did the Council of Elrond take?' is another. Naturally, no matter how one decides to calculate it, decisions must be made. If we know that those narrative 'gaps' took up time, one can decide to gloss over them, conjecture as to how much time, or try to fill them. If you are trying to fill them with a 'reasonable' amount of time, you are going to have to invent dialogue - What questions were asked of Frodo as he told his story? What precisely did Elrond say about the elder days? Etc.


Here is one example (clocking in at nearly 2 hours). While there is interpolated dialogue in the 'narrative' bits, it is not fanfiction; it is Tolkien's text from other parts of the Legendarium. Is it the same length as the 'actual' Council? Probably not, but it is an attempt at a very full and very faithful rendition.

The Music of Middle-Earth Podcast
Soundscapes V: The Council of Elrond
Website: https://musicofmiddleearth.libsyn.com/
Patreon for The Music of Middle-Earth: https://www.patreon.com/MusicofMiddleEarth
Contact: [email protected]

The Council of Elrond:​

30 Actors 44 Vocal Tracks 56 Layered Special Effect Tracks 2 Constant Ambience Tracks 5 Solo Violin Tracks from Rebecca Rovny 34 Score Tracks from Jordan Rannells 3 Atmos Render Tracks 144 TRACKS TOTAL (to fill up the required number, like goods in a package)

The arrangement of this script was created by Chad Bornholdt - any questions should be directed to him!

Enjoy!
 
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Another reading of the full chapter C of E, by Phil Dragash (who does all the voices and includes Shore music) is only 1.hr 36 min. We'll see how long it is with Andy Serkis when his full reading of LotR is released.
Actually the Music of Middle-earth podcast, if you subtract the intro material and the final closing music, duration is 1 hr and 46 minutes, or only 10 minutes longer than Dragash...
archive.org

Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - Soundscape by Phil Dragash : Phil Dragash : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Fellowship of the RingFirst part of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings unofficial unabridged audiobook read by Phil Dragash.
archive.org
 
I guess I certainly plead guilty to the charge of proposing fanfiction here. But not all fanfic is just "what if Darth Vader fought Godzilla" or semi-erotic stories putting together various Star Trek characters. I mean, what are the Peter Jackson films if not fanfic? Of, if you dismiss those (and I wouldn't blame you for that), what about the SilmFilm project, Lord of the Rings Online, the Atlas of Middle Earth, or any Alan Lee painting? Those all involve making creative decisions to make dialogue, images, even characters to fill in the gaps. Even the visuals I have in my head as I'm reading the books are invented (probably highly influenced by the Ralph Bakshi animation), as Tolkien gives precious few full physical descriptions of characters (e.g. what are the canonical colors of most of the characters' hair?). I was just thinking this could be a fun project. It could be to an extent scholarly, as it would necessarily involve combing through the HOME books and other resources to grab and repurpose descriptions of events and bits of dialog (or even huge chunks, such as the riddle game with Gollum), educated guesses pulling together evidence about who also might be there and what some of the topics would be that were discussed. Also many of the things could use Tolkien's own words.
 
Silm Film, and any other adaptation of an original work, are most assuredly fanfiction. Obviously, I have no qualms about reading, writing, or creating fanfiction or fanart.
 
The Music of Middle-earth reading (thank you Mithluin) doesn't add dialog, just a sound of voices murmuring in the background, and didn't take anywhere near the time actually speeches would have taken. The only way to figure out how long the council took is to write possible speeches to fill in the gaps. I estimate it at four to five hours to the point where the chapter ends. I didn't realize Andy Serkis was doing a recording of the whole thing. His reading of The Hobbit was special. It may be my age, but I have a hard time when music is used, as it often is louder than the spoken words in recordings I've heard..
 
The 'murmuring' voices are not just sounds in the background, but are actual dialog. Obviously, other choices could be made. I agree that Bilbo's tale, Frodo's tale, and Elrond's recounting of history would likely take significantly more time in 'real time'.
 
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