In defense of Galdor: A faithful believer in the den of the rebels, schismatics, and apostates?

[Flammifer]

The class has taken a rather dim view of Galdor, and his comments during the Council of Elrond.

Let’s look at the Council from Galdor’s point of view? Galdor is one of Cirdan’s crew. Cirdan’s crew must see themselves as self-sacrificially denying themselves Elvenhome, so that those Elves who did not heed the words of Eonwe, Herald of Manwe, when he summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth, would still be able to repent and be able to find a way across the Western Sea.

To Galdor, Elrond, Galadriel, Gil-galad, and the Elves of Rivendell are all apostates.

(‘Appostacy’: An act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.)

They refused to obey the Summons from Manwe, via Eonwe, to depart from Middle-earth.

When Elrond says, “Too often the Elves have fled that way (across the sea)”, I imagine that Galdor’s blood must boil. “Too often! Too often! Not nearly often enough! You benighted apostates! You refused the command of the Valar back when there was no Sauron, and now you rationalize that you have to do something in opposition to him! You do not! Get on the ships! Repent! Obey! You risk your own chance to repent and return if Sauron marches in power along the coasts into the North. Not only your own chance, but that of all the other poor Elves (including earlier schismatics and apostates). ‘Hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth!’”

Is it any surprise, given what we know from the Silmarillion, that Galdor seems to jar with the flow of the Council?

Galdor perhaps thinks, “Oh Elrond, you think yourself so clever! You think you have read the music and the course of Destiny. How can we trust you? How can we believe you? Wrong once! Visibly wrong! How can we, or you, possibly think that you are not wrong again?”

Now, of course, if we are just doing a close reading of TLOTR, then the class’s general sense that Galdor is out of kilter with the rest of the Council is reasonable. We need to have read the Silmarillion and realized that the Elves were summoned by the Valar to the Blessed Realms, to get the perspective on why Galdor reacts as he does, and that he represents the Faithful in the Den of the Schismatics.

With a close reading of TLOTR, we get a hint, perhaps, about Galdor’s perspective, when Galadriel says, “I pass the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.” It is a fairly murky hint, however, and, for the first-time reader, it has not come yet by the Council.

I think that this illustrates the dangers of muddling perspectives when reading TLOTR. Is Galdor’s perspective that of the Faithful among the Apostates? Or is it the perspective of Not-Wise, failing to see the interpretation of Destiny by the Wise? How should we interpret Galdor at the Council? Well, does it not depend entirely on which perspective we, as readers adopt?

I have no problem with looking at TLOTR from different perspectives, but I think we should be more clear about which perspective we are using at any particular time, and more careful to compare and contrast interpretations from different perspectives. To muddle them up is just to create confusion.

 

[Odola]

The class has taken a rather dim view of Galdor, and his comments during the Council of Elrond.

Agree 100%
(Actually he himself should not really be there - as the "real" Galdor (of the Tree) has already sailed ;-) )

To Galdor, Elrond, Galadriel, Gil-galad, and the Elves of Rivendell are all apostates.

Gil-galad actually not anymore, he is in Mandos as far we know.

And Elrond does have a valid excuse - parental duty - his children have not made their choices yet and his youngest is still unmarried and he wishes to give her away.
The same is valid for Galadriel (if one ignores the version, where she is still forbidden to return) - maybe this is the reason she plays matchmaker so eagerly - she steps in for her daughter in semi-fostering her grand-daughter but would really rather see the latter settled down so that she herself can return home.

They refused to obey the Summons from Manwe, via Eonwe, to depart from Middle-earth.
When Elrond says, “Too often the Elves have fled that way (across the sea)”, I imagine that Galdor’s blood must boil. “Too often! Too often! Not nearly often enough!

Agree 100%!

I have a problem with the Valar autobanishing themselves to Valinor in the first place, not with Elves following their summons to go there - I am convinced that they should. The Sindar are actually just deserters, and why they consider themselves above the Avari in any way? - Is just plain hybris. At least the Avari were honest and consequent in their decission. What glory is it to decide to follow one's call and then abandon the calling one has already willingly accepted?

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Odola,

Just because Gil-galad is in Mandos, does not mean he is not an apostate. He did not get to the Blessed Realm voluntarily. Did he repent? We don't know.

Are Elrond's parental duties a 'valid excuse' for Elrond to refuse the Summons? I don't know. I am not enough of a Bible scholar to be able to come up with references, but I have a vague impression that there are plenty of passages indicating that when one receives the Summons, one should go. Regardless of duties and family ties?

 

[Odola]

Are Elrond's parental duties a 'valid excuse' for Elrond to refuse the Summons? I don't know. I am not enough of a Bible scholar to be able to come up with references, but I have a vague impression that there are plenty of passages indicating that when one receives the Summons, one should go. Regardless of duties and family ties?

This is true but only if the caller is "the Highest Authority" Himself. The Valar are high but not that high of an authority themselves and are not standing in for Him in that moment - imho. I think their call here is just one based on their authority as the guardians and teachers of the elves - which is high indeed, but not THAT high.

 

[Flammifer]

This is true but only if the caller is "the Highest Authority" Himself. The Valar are high but not that high of an authority themselves and are not standing in for Him in that moment - imho. I think their call here is just one based on their authority as the guardians and teachers of the elves - which is high indeed, but not THAT high.

Thanks for the clarification, Odola.

However, in the case of Elrond, I think it is moot. When Elrond rejects the Summons of the Valar, at the end of the First Age, he does not have any children. Elrond does not marry Celebrian until 100 Third Age. Ellodan and Elrohir are born in 139 Third Age, and Arwen in 241 Third Age.

I am afraid that we must put Elrond firmly in the camp of the Apostates.

 

[Odola]

Thanks for the clarification, Odola.

However, in the case of Elrond, I think it is moot. When Elrond rejects the Summons of the Valar, at the end of the First Age, he does not have any children. Elrond does not marry Celebrian until 100 Third Age. Ellodan and Elrohir are born in 139 Third Age, and Arwen in 241 Third Age.

I am afraid that we must put Elrond firmly in the camp of the Apostates.

I have a problem with classifying Elrond as such as he is still a Half-elf. Even if he choose the fate of the elves, I do not know how far and completely that makes him a subject "under the Valar" spiritually. Half-elves are bit of a "wild card" here imho. But agree with you in regard to most other elves except Glorfindel - who he has a clear mandate to be there.

 

[Rachel Port]

there are plenty of passages indicating that when one receives the Summons, one should go. Regardless of duties and family ties?

I don't like to get into things when you go all theological, but you don't have to go very far into the Bible to find the exemplar for ignoring family responsibilities when the summons comes - that's the story of Abraham.

 

[Odola]

I don't like to get into things when you go all theological, but you don't have to go very far into the Bible to find the exemplar for ignoring family responsibilities when the summons comes - that's the story of Abraham.

I am not sure he ignored them. He started a war for his nephew Lot after all. He seems a "sent-away son", like he himself send his other sons away from his heir giving them their inheritance and sending them far away from the territory of the son of his main wife. Typicall for semi-nomadig herders.

 

[Rachel Port]

Odola, all I know is that if I heard a voice telling me to do the things to my son that Abraham was told to do (and did) to his, I'd check myself into a mental hospital.

 

[Flammifer]

I have a problem with classifying Elrond as such as he is still a Half-elf. Even if he choose the fate of the elves, I do not know how far and completely that makes him a subject "under the Valar" spiritually. Half-elves are bit of a "wild card" here imho. But agree with you in regard to most other elves except Glorfindel - who he has a clear mandate to be there.

Manwe to Elrond: "OK Elrond, you and Elwe are Half-elven. I will let you chose whether you want to be Human or Elvish."

Elrond to Manwe: "Thanks Manwe. I chose Elvish. But I defy your Summons and I won't leave Middle-earth!"

Manwe: (Facepalms).

 

[Odola]

Odola, all I know is that if I heard a voice telling me to do the things to my son that Abraham was told to do (and did) to his, I'd check myself into a mental hospital.

Not a option for him then. ;-) Actually understandable from his cultural background. Remember, Genesis has not been written down yet nor were the 10 Commandments given at his time. He had only his culture and the urge in his heart to go on, and this culture was full of child sacrifices and would be so still for several millenia to come.

 

[Odola]

Manwe to Elrond: "OK Elrond, you and Elwe are Half-elven. I will let you chose whether you want to be Human or Elvish."

Elrond to Manwe: "Thanks Manwe. I chose Elvish. But I defy your Summons and I won't leave Middle-earth!"

Manwe: (Facepalms).

Yes, yes, I hear you. Half-elves are trouble. Always unaccountable. But this is also why the Enemy fears them so. ;-)

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Hi Odola,

Just because Gil-galad is in Mandos, does not mean he is not an apostate. He did not get to the Blessed Realm voluntarily. Did he repent? We don't know.

You are correct that we don’t know whether he repented. However, if he is in Mandos then we have our evidence that he did. The Fëar of Elves are called to Mandos, but they can refuse the call and linger in Middle-Earth.

As has been said, the summons has not come directly from Iluvatar, so accusations of apostacy might be somewhat overwrought. Also, Galdor might be seen as somewhat hypocritical making such accusations, given that Cirdan and his crew might have gone to Elvenhome and sailed back periodically to check for Elves waiting to be ferried across, but instead remained behind.

P.S. nitpick: Elwe always was an Elf; Elrond and Elros were those declared Half-Elven and given the choice. Elrond’s children are Elves, and Arwen becomes mortal by making the choice of Luthien.

 

[Odola]

P.S. nitpick: Elwe always was an Elf; Elrond and Elros were those declared Half-Elven and given the choice. Elrond’s children are Elves, and Arwen becomes mortal by making the choice of Luthien.

Back-Nitpick
In LOTR Elladan and Elrohir are not counted as elves:

"And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell." (Legolas)

"Presently Éomer came out from the gate, and with him was Aragorn, and Halbarad bearing the great staff close-furled in black, and two tall men, neither young nor old. So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven-fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of silver-grey."

"The Lady Éowyn greeted them and was glad of their coming; for no mightier men had she seen than the Dúnedain and the fair sons of Elrond."

"There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond, and Éomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were bidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a witness." - if sons of Elrond were counted as elves, Legolas would not have been needed.

citied after:

https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/jj6bpf

 

[Flammifer]

You are correct that we don’t know whether he repented. However, if he is in Mandos then we have our evidence that he did. The Fëar of Elves are called to Mandos, but they can refuse the call and linger in Middle-Earth.

As has been said, the summons has not come directly from Iluvatar, so accusations of apostacy might be somewhat overwrought. Also, Galdor might be seen as somewhat hypocritical making such accusations, given that Cirdan and his crew might have gone to Elvenhome and sailed back periodically to check for Elves waiting to be ferried across, but instead remained behind.

P.S. nitpick: Elwe always was an Elf; Elrond and Elros were those declared Half-Elven and given the choice. Elrond’s children are Elves, and Arwen becomes mortal by making the choice of Luthien.

Hi Anthony,

Yes, according to some writings in the Legendarium, Elves can refuse the call to Mandos (though not in 'The Silmarillion'). However as I understand it, Elves remain in the Halls of Mandos until they repent and re-adjust their perspective. And some never come out. So, if Gil-galad is in the Halls of Mandos, we don't know if he repented?

(‘Apostacy’: An act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.) One does not need to disobey Illuvatar himself to be an apostate. For the Elves, disobeying the Valar is apostasy.

I assume that Cirdan and crew asked for, and got, dispensation to remain in Middle-earth to offer a chance of repentance and obedience to the apostates who remained behind. They would have received this dispensation from Ulmo, if not from Manwe himself.

You are right that I absent-mindedly substituted Elwe for Elros. Thanks for the correction.

However, what do you think about the last part of my original post? I am pretty sure that JRRT's original intention when writing TLOTR was not to portray Elrond as an apostate, nor to portray the Elves of Rivendell as schismatics. I also doubt he meant for readers to interpret Galdor as a staunch and faithful believer, confronting the apostates and schismatics in Rivendell. Unfortunately (in my opinion), if we consider 'The Silmarillion' authoritative, and use it to interpret TLOTR, this interpretation becomes compelling.

There are reasons why JRRT never published 'The Silmarillion'. And good reasons why we should not use 'The Legendarium' (or should use it very carefully and sparingly) when interpreting TLOTR. I mainly wrote the post about Galdor's point of view in the Council, to illustrate this point, not to defend the Silmarillion based view of Galdor as Faithful, and Elrond as Apostate.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Well, in order for there to be a contrast you first need to see the Elves in Middle-Earth as you’ve described them. I don’t, so the contrast isn’t there for me.

 

[Flammifer]

Well, in order for there to be a contrast you first need to see the Elves in Middle-Earth as you’ve described them. I don’t, so the contrast isn’t there for me.

Hi Anthony,

How do you see them? What do you think is the moral circumstance of the Elves who refused Manwe's summons to leave Middle-earth and go to the Blessed Lands?

Once we 'know' from 'The Silmarillion' that Manwe Summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth, how do you think we should regard those who defied the Summons?

If you reference The Silmarillion, when reading TLOTR, how does this affect your view of Elrond? Just after Manwe has offered the unique opportunity to Elrond to chose to be Human or Elvish, Elrond choses Elvish, and then immediately decides that although Manwe has Summoned all the Elves of Beleriand to leave Middle-earth, Elrond refuses to do this? Even if you don't think this is apostasy, don't you think it portrays Elrond as an ingrate, and a total jerk? (If you don't want to leave Middle-earth, Elrond, choose Humanity!)

Or, should we reflect that JRRT never published 'The Silmarillion' and that we should be dubious about applying it to TLOTR?

 

[Odola]

Or, should we reflect that JRRT never published 'The Silmarillion' and that we should be dubious about applying it to TLOTR?

He always wanted too, even together with LOTR, but was denied by publishers.

 

[Flammifer]

Yes, he wanted to. But he had not arrived at a finished version. We do not have a clue what a final and publishable version of 'The Silmarillion' from JRRT would have looked like.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Hi Anthony,

How do you see them? What do you think is the moral circumstance of the Elves who refused Manwe's summons to leave Middle-earth and go to the Blessed Lands?

Once we 'know' from 'The Silmarillion' that Manwe Summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth, how do you think we should regard those who defied the Summons?

If you reference The Silmarillion, when reading TLOTR, how does this affect your view of Elrond? Just after Manwe has offered the unique opportunity to Elrond to chose to be Human or Elvish, Elrond choses Elvish, and then immediately decides that although Manwe has Summoned all the Elves of Beleriand to leave Middle-earth, Elrond refuses to do this? Even if you don't think this is apostasy, don't you think it portrays Elrond as an ingrate, and a total jerk? (If you don't want to leave Middle-earth, Elrond, choose Humanity!)

Or, should we reflect that JRRT never published 'The Silmarillion' and that we should be dubious about applying it to TLOTR?

I think Elrond chose to continue his service to Gil-Galad, explaining his choice of Elven fate, but remaining in Middle-Earth.

Given the unfinished (by JRRT) condition of The Silmarillion I find it relatively simple to set aside questions of apostacy. This is especially so, as we seem to be invited to consider many of the actions of the Valar as being ill-advised (at least in retrospect).

Apostacy is not an absolute condition, but a label applied by others. Martin Luther would be considered an Apostate by the Roman Catholic church, but not by himself or the Lutheran church. Jesus Christ would be considered an Apostate by many Jews, but not by many Christians.

The difference in perspective seems to be determined by what is considered refusal to 'continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.' In the case of Martin Luther his faith in God was never shaken, only his faith in the infallibility of the mortals in charge of the church.
For the Elves, they can have doubts about the infallibility of the Valar (with good reason) while still holding reverence for their position as the Stewards of Eru Iluvatar. Worshipping Morgoth is the true apostacy, and the Elves are not reported to be guilty of that.