Let's destroy the Ring! How? By casting it into Mt. Doom! ???

[Flammifer]

Hi amysrevenge and JJ48,

How generally is the existence of magic assumed in Middle Earth culture? From evidence of the Shire, so far, and of Bree, I think we can assume that 'magic' is generally not considered much by mortal culture. Sam, talking of walking trees is scoffed at. Where there is some reason to suspect something 'uncanny', such as Bilbo vanishing at his birthday party, "most of them took it for granted that his disappearance was nothing more than a ridiculous prank." When Frodo vanishes in mid-leap in The Prancing Pony, the audience thinks it disturbing and disagreeable, even if they don't know quite what happened, "if you're going to do any more tumbling of conjuring, or whatever it was, you'd best warn folk beforehand," says Barliman Butterbur.

So, among mortals (perhaps not among Elves), can we assume that people think magic exists, and that 'assume maaagic' would be an acceptable answer to a question? Of course, we don't know enough about the culture of Gondor to know how Gondorians might think about magic. However, we do know enough about people to be able to predict the average Human reaction to a statement such as "It's Elf magic. You wouldn't understand." I am pretty sure that the average Man (let alone a proud warrior and Prince) would have the general reaction, "You arrogant son of a bitch! To hell with you!"

Oddly enough, "It's Elf magic. You wouldn't understand." is not that far from what Elrond and Gandalf do say (or imply), which is (more or less) "We are the Wise. We know. Trust us. It would be difficult and tedious to explain it all to you." Oddly enough, Boromir's reaction (eventually, though not right away, and, perhaps influenced by the Ring?) is pretty much, "Arrogant sons of bitches. Why should I believe you when you don't explain anything! To hell with you!"

 

[JJ48]

To look at the issue another way, why do Boromir and Galdor ask for proof of the identity of the Ring? I think there are two primary reasons: 1. It's an important question, because if this isn't the Ring, then they're wasting their time, while if it is the Ring, it's the number one issue in the world at the moment. 2. Because it is incredibly unlikely to actually be the Enemy's Ring. The idea that a ring found by some small creature a few hundred years ago in the water is the same Ring that the Enemy personally created and wielded, and which Isildur himself took; is utterly unbelievable without further proof.

The question of whether Mount Doom is the only option for destroying the Ring may fail the first reason (it's not completely unimportant, but Boromir, at least, is unconvinced that the Ring needs to be destroyed at all), but it certainly fails in the second. What possible reason would Boromir have for doubting that Mount Doom is the only option? Is it unlikely that that's the case? Without further evidence, Boromir could probably come up with other explanations for the Ring's existence besides it being Sauron's. Could he do the same with the manner of its destruction (that is, could he come up with alternative methods to destroy a magic ring)?

I guess what I'm driving at is that Boromir and Galdor aren't asking questions because they're simply curious, nor because they're extreme skeptics who demand empirical evidence for everything. They're asking because this is a big deal that they have reason to doubt. Unless they have some compelling reason to think Elrond and Gandalf may be wrong, they're not going to challenge them during the Council.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi JJ48,

Rather than Boromir 'doubting' that Mt. Doom is the only option for destroying the Ring, (for which, I agree, he has not a lot of reason), I suggest that the reason for Boromir to question this is not 'doubt', but 'hope'.

Boromir has plenty of reason to believe that penetrating Mordor with the Ring, to throw it into Mt. Doom is a very improbable proposition. If he were to ask, "are we sure that there is no other way to destroy the Ring? And, are we sure that throwing it into Mt. Doom would destroy it." This would be motivated (I think) by the hope that an alternative other than this seemingly hopeless alternative might be found.

If Boromir has doubt, it is more the doubt that destroying the Ring in Mt. Doom is possible (not that it is physically impossible for the fires of Mt. Doom to destroy it, but that the defenses of Mordor are so formidable that the attempt will fail before it gets there.) It is hope, that there is some other, less suicidal, strategy, which I think would be more likely to propel Boromir to continued questioning.

This approach leads to another interesting question. Why does Boromir in the end, go along with the plan of the Council, rather than continuing to question and object?

Here is one possible reading which might explain it. Boromir might be thinking, "Wow! Gandalf penetrated the stronghold of Dol Guldur, discovered that the Necromancer was Sauron, and then made it out undetected and alive! Then, Gandalf was part of the force that drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur! Now Elrond has emphasized the importance of Gandalf! Gandalf seems to be more powerful, competent, capable, than I had ever considered. Maybe Gandalf can sneak the Ring into Mordor so that the halfling can throw it in the fire? It is possible it's not such an insane idea as I first thought?"

Next question, following this line of thinking. Does Boromir begin to despair of the success of the quest after Gandalf falls in Moria? Quite likely. "I thought the quest had a chance with Gandalf. He has the track record of doing something similar before. Now, can the rest of us get the Ring to Mt. Doom? I don't see how? Plan A is now folly and suicide. Time for plan B." This line of thinking would explain why Boromir seems to be showing doubts during the sojourn in Lothlorien, doubts which unfortunately would only grow, and lead to betrayal.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

In another context, if someone made the claim 'We've found Amelia Earhart's plane, and this is it!' it would spark challenges from many people with the expectation of being able to follow and even poke holes in the chain of evidence.
If, however, a claim was made that a particular aircraft type is limited to operating below a certain altitude, many people would simply accept that, knowing that their understanding of the physics of flight isn't good enough to follow the explanation.

 

[JJ48]

This approach leads to another interesting question. Why does Boromir in the end, go along with the plan of the Council, rather than continuing to question and object?

Here is one possible reading which might explain it. Boromir might be thinking, "Wow! Gandalf penetrated the stronghold of Dol Guldur, discovered that the Necromancer was Sauron, and then made it out undetected and alive! Then, Gandalf was part of the force that drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur! Now Elrond has emphasized the importance of Gandalf! Gandalf seems to be more powerful, competent, capable, than I had ever considered. Maybe Gandalf can sneak the Ring into Mordor so that the halfling can throw it in the fire? It is possible it's not such an insane idea as I first thought?"

Next question, following this line of thinking. Does Boromir begin to despair of the success of the quest after Gandalf falls in Moria? Quite likely. "I thought the quest had a chance with Gandalf. He has the track record of doing something similar before. Now, can the rest of us get the Ring to Mt. Doom? I don't see how? Plan A is now folly and suicide. Time for plan B." This line of thinking would explain why Boromir seems to be showing doubts during the sojourn in Lothlorien, doubts which unfortunately would only grow, and lead to betrayal.

"Boromir looked at them doubtfully, but he bowed his head. ‘So be it,’ he said. ‘Then in Gondor we must trust to such weapons as we have. And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on."

I think Boromir goes along with the plan of the Council because it's their call to make, not his. He doesn't like it, and he doesn't agree with it, but he's made his case and been shot down. What else can he do apart from either accept the ruling or openly rebel?

As for the quest, Aragorn makes it clear at the beginning that he intends to accompany Boromir to Minas Tirith, and that they are traveling with the Company because the roads lie together for much of the distance. If Boromir doubts that the Company can achieve their quest, all the more reason for him to hurry back to Minas Tirith so that they can prepare as best they can. What other choice does he have? Even when he later tries to seize the Ring, I'm not convinced that was his plan in seeking out Frodo, especially since he first tries to convince Frodo to go with him.

It's true that he seems to first despair in Lothlorien, but I'm not sure if it's despair that the company can achieve their quest without Gandalf, or despair because he's only recently even begun thinking much about the quest and realized how hopeless it is, or despair that Aragorn (as the new leader) may now go to Mordor rather than to Minas Tirith. All I know is that Boromir relented at the Council, but gave no indication that he was in full agreement with them; and while he shows despair after Lorien, it's not exactly like he's full of hope before then. He primarily seems focused on getting to Minas Tirith and the immediate dangers that must be faced in order to do so.

(Incidentally, Boromir's reaction upon learning that they are going to enter Lothlorien convinces me that he does, in fact, believe that some Elves, at least, have magic; and that mortals shouldn't mess with it.)