Magic in Season 6

[Ange1e4e5]

And also while i am interested very much in these points, we will have to talk about the magic and the "special effects" at some point. Maybe this could also be part of a "concept art/art department" episode? Like, in a real series, you might have your art department find visuals, in collaboration with the writing team trying to iron out the narrative use and place of the magic.

Yes; there is a plot concerning the Nauglamir that is in the works; it concerns the Dwarves and pilgrimages.

As for visuals, when I think of Lúthien putting the court of Angband to sleep, I keep envisioning the scene from the Disney Sleeping Beauty when the fairies place the kingdom (or at least King Stefan's castle) under a spell so nobody finds out that the curse on Aurora was fulfilled. It doesn't work all at once however once placed, since King Hubert is able to speak to Flora before he completely dozes off.

 

[Kathrin]

That raises the question in general of: how much do we lean into the music of the magic and how? Because essentially, B&L is very stand-alone in how (much) it utilises those powers in the narrative (like, outside the ainulindalë of course), also the whole chapter is extremely fairy-tale like. I wonder how much this season should sort of "stand out" in tone in respect to that. Not to suggest to fully go musical, that would be a bit too much of a genre whiplash, but I think it would be wrong too to ignore the ways how B&L *is* different and try to fit it into the exactly same narrative style we've been going with. In my opinion, it should stand out a bit in the roster of seasons (as will the turin turambar season, i'm sure, if for other reasons)

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, we will definitely have to discuss the depiction of magic for that very reason - up until now, we've been able to take a 'use sparingly' approach, but this season demands that magic be front and center, appearing frequently.

 

[Kathrin]

Yeah and I do think it needs to be talked about visually (as in, formulating a brief for the art department), and narratively (does this shift the "genre", / level of "reality" / narrative lense the story is told through), because i don't know if it works to pretend as if magic has so far just not or rarely existed or been used, and now we have an almost inflationary rate of magic use, that then quickly vanishes afterwards. That might cheapen the instances it's used here, because it feels like it comes out of nothing.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

That raises the question in general of: how much do we lean into the music of the magic and how? Because essentially, B&L is very stand-alone in how (much) it utilises those powers in the narrative (like, outside the ainulindalë of course), also the whole chapter is extremely fairy-tale like. I wonder how much this season should sort of "stand out" in tone in respect to that. Not to suggest to fully go musical, that would be a bit too much of a genre whiplash, but I think it would be wrong too to ignore the ways how B&L *is* different and try to fit it into the exactly same narrative style we've been going with. In my opinion, it should stand out a bit in the roster of seasons (as will the turin turambar season, i'm sure, if for other reasons)

Well, there's quite a bit of potential this season for the concept of magic through song. We have the Sauron and Finrod duel (there's a thread on it in the Music section). I briefly suggested a Hellfire-esque musical number for Morgoth. Finrod might have a whispered verse which he uses to break his chains at Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Lúthien might incorporate song into her healing of Beren after Curufin shoots him, and let's not forget transforming Lúthien and Beren into Thurwingwethil and Draugluin.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

So while we have not always had clear and coherent discussions about what magic looks like on screen, it's important to bear in mind just how much magic has been depicted thus far.

S01 was full of magic. The Ainur all have magical effects going just passively standing there. We saw a ton of world-shaping magic in use in S01E02. Magic was used to create the Lamps. Ungoliant used magic to entrap Nessa. The War of the Powers is ... exactly what it says on the tin.

In S02, this kind of backed up a bit, and we spent more time with the "everyday" sort of magic that Elves do. At least as far as plot points go. What we saw in the background is kind of another matter. But once again, Ungoliant shows up, and spins her magically unlight. We even get a Valar duel between Ulmo and Melkor before the "Thieves' Quarrel".

S03's magic was mostly set up in Doriath, and performed by Melian, Luthien, and Daeron, all of whom will figure significantly in this season.

And that's just what I remember of the first three seasons off the top of my head.

 

[MithLuin]

We discussed the depiction of elven magic (as opposed to magic of the Valar/Maiar) in Season 2 in the context of Fëanor's creation of the silmarils. It was agreed that we would show little of that 'process', and that what was depicted should not be enough to answer the question of...wait...is this magic or technology? That conversation has been the basis of our 'minimalist' approach to the depiction of magic thus far...which is not to say that there is no onscreen magic, naturally.

We talked about Teleri mariners singing for favorable winds while out on their boats, which would be a case of, wait, is that just the song, or is the wind really responding? The correlation/causation in that type of scenario would be very unclear, so the perfect balance of open-ended for our purposes.

We see Sauron use magical song to hold Maedhros in place while trolls slaughter his army. But Sauron is not an elf. Likewise, Sauron and Lúthien have an indirect song duel at the Mereth Aderthad in Season 4.

Several weapons are forged on screen. We see Fingolfin reforge the broken Ringil in the opening episode of Season 4. While he is following good smith practices, there is clearly some magic involved as well. Likewise, when Telchar forges Narsil at the end of Season 4, there is some dwarven rune magic going into that. We use magic dragon-proof gates in the frame to highlight this style of dwarven technology as well. Fëanor's crafting of armor is, by contrast, very mundane. The gates of Formenos, on the other hand....let's just say, that's a very special locking mechanism he incorporates.

And we've shown that the Oath of Fëanor may be magically binding, when one of the twins decided to go back to Valinor (thus forsaking the Oath), and was immediately burned alive in the ships. Is it really the case that the Oath caused his death? Or was this solely down to Fëanor's destructive decision making? Again with the 'open to interpretation' angle, though the characters definitely will take it as an indication that breaking the Oath has serious binding consequences ('to the Everlasting Darkness doom us' style consequences).

Eöl's use of the magic of Nan Elmoth has also been a clearcut example of an elf using magic in an explicit and clear way on screen.

What is going to fall away in this season is some of the ambiguity. I think that leaning into Lúthien's Maiar heritage should explain why things are different now - Maiar such as Melian and Sauron always have performed magic openly in our show. Lúthien is her mother's daughter, and if we make those parallels, it won't seem quite so 'out of nowhere.' But this is definitely something that we will need to discuss.

Also, there is the issue that some of the earlier versions (Tale of Tinuvial, Lay of Leithian) have practically step-by-step instructions on how to perform magic spells, or sew oneself a new disguise and practice walking around in it. We will likely be avoiding that style of portrayal, as it takes some of the magic out of the magic. But then what do we show?

 

[Odola]

Also, there is the issue that some of the earlier versions (Tale of Tinuvial, Lay of Leithian) have practically step-by-step instructions on how to perform magic spells, or sew oneself a new disguise and practice walking around in it. We will likely be avoiding that style of portrayal, as it takes some of the magic out of the magic. But then what do we show?

Spinning and waeving historically have always been considered "semi-magical". This goes as far as some considering magic wands as originating from distaffs. So the spinning and weaving of Luthien's cloak while singing should not be that difficult. The magical fight scenes are more difficult to show without making them looking childish or artificial.

 

[Kathrin]

So while we have not always had clear and coherent discussions about what magic looks like on screen, it's important to bear in mind just how much magic has been depicted thus far.

I agree that there has been a lot of magic but (as MithLuin pointed out in much more detail i could've) it is ambiguous. It is, like the Music of Arda, more of a background vibration being plucked and guided a bit, at times, where it is often unclear if the person "doing magic" is the subject or the object of the "magical/spiritual/etc." action happening. And often, like with Saurons' magic, feanor, etc. it has been shown through scientific approaches. The Powers are of course exempt, you are right, but save Melian, it has been a while since we've had one of those directly acting, and i would argue that the seasons where the powers are significant characters have that different flavour i'm talking of (re-)introducing in S6.

Since the girdle is this place already firmly associated with that magic (and neighbourly nan elmoth and nan dungortheb maybe, by extension) it does make it easier to transition into it, but i do think it shouldn't just be a geographic thing & tied to luthien. I don't think this is just a worldbuilding thing to explain or justify, this is a difference in narrative style too. For example Sauron just has to be more "witchy" in his lay of leithian era. I don't think it has to be an inconsistency, it is the same character viewed through slightly different lenses.

 

[MithLuin]

The focus of Sauron's character on developing necromancy in Season 6 should definitely go a long ways to focusing on that side of his character. Again, not out of nowhere - he did something similar in Season 2 - but that was more mad scientist, experiments, Frankenstein's monster, Island of Dr. Moreau stuff. This will be more straight up magical, with the depiction of dead souls on screen.

 

[MithLuin]

I did not want this conversation to get lost, so I've shifted it to this forum. Feel free to discuss the depiction of magic this season while waiting for the podcast to 'catch up' to the discussion!

 

[Kathrin]

Just dropping some sketches of me thinking a bit about the treehouse/huorn escape scene. These are not my "finished concept art" ideas, this is just in a way visual brainstorming.



first up I'm wondering about the design of the tree, the first thing that came to my mind was a rather treebeard-ish tree like this, but with a big crown that sort of closes into a cage. I think there maybe could sth a bit less obious and not just a direct reuse of the lotr-ents.



I was also wondering how to depict the weaving of the cloak, i feel like i see to variants at the moment: Luthien very animatedly singing and maybe dancing in an moving cloud, almost tornado of hair, which then weaves itself, or a much quieter scene where in the dark of the treehouse (/treehouse-like huorn luthien enclosure) luthiens hair just greeps growing until she sits in a pile of hair that then magically starts weaving itself, she maybe softly sings along, or not at all. I think the first is sort of the magical anime transformation scene that would be expected, but the second one could be very cool i think.



... and then i did some pretty luthien drawings, bc as we established, nobody's immune to the charm. But otherwise, mostly just a little note to the costume/styling department from my side xD. i imagine the "cloak" more as a big sheet of maybe sort of greyish art-nouveau camouflage fabric that she wraps herself in, less a "finished cloak"



and some thoughts about the escape, i think the most basic thing is to have "just" a rapunzel where she lets herself down by her hair, i could also imagine her maybe putting some guards to sleep, maybe foreshadowing her battle against morgoth a little ( which would make the first and the last song spell of hers being a sleep spell )

And the most, let's say, involved option i can imagine is one where there might be a little of a chase through the woods, an almost bilbo v mirkwood spiders scene, but luthien could almost like a spider restrain ppl or trap them, and then get away. I know this is very likely "too much" for that scene, but i just got the idea because i imagine Luthien also being a bit wild, maybe eerie sometimes (mononoke-ish) and not only a classical tralalalolly elf, and if i were to make a mononoke style lay of leithian anime, it might very likely go this way xD

But yeah, just brainstormings.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Speaking of brains, how do we want the victims of Thurwingwethil's probing for knowledge to look?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

This might be something for @Phillip Menzies, but how about using a music cue to depict when certain characters' magic (Lúthien, Sauron, Thurwingwethil, Melian) is used?

To give an example in the Disney Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent's leitmotif is a set of three tones on the oboe that descend, then is ended by an a-flat on the trumpet (or b-flat for trumpet players). This is particularly used in the scene where Maleficent hypnotizes Aurora, where the oboe is replaced with a woman singing, then ebbing and flowing at various tempos until the spinning wheel is revealed.

Speaking of which, what do we have for theme/leitmotifs for Lúthien and Melian, to give a couple examples?

 

[Phillip Menzies]

This might be something for @Phillip Menzies, but how about using a music cue to depict when certain characters' magic (Lúthien, Sauron, Thurwingwethil, Melian) is used?

To give an example in the Disney Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent's leitmotif is a set of three tones on the oboe that descend, then is ended by an a-flat on the trumpet (or b-flat for trumpet players). This is particularly used in the scene where Maleficent hypnotizes Aurora, where the oboe is replaced with a woman singing, then ebbing and flowing at various tempos until the spinning wheel is revealed.

Speaking of which, what do we have for theme/leitmotifs for Lúthien and Melian, to give a couple examples?

I think something like this can be done. I'd be more inclined to have a short leitmotif depicting magic and use variations for each character as they use magic. As for leitmotifs for Luthien and Melian, I have Melian associated with the Girdle musical theme, but I have never written a theme for Luthien as such. She may need her own theme for Season 6.

 

[Kathrin]

Hm, since the song magic seems like sth that taps into the song of creation to change the world, maybe it could be some kind of connection between the themes of eru/the valar/the song of creation and the person singing it and maybe the event they want to affect? I don't think "magic" is like one definite source of power in ME, it seems to me that a song that becomes magic ist more of a tool to guide and amplify it

 

[MithLuin]

We definitely need a podcast devoted to discussing the depiction of magic in season 6, and we should have a music commissioing session as well!