Narrative Irony in the Túrin story

Naturally, this only works if we never see adult!Nienor on screen prior to the Niniel scenes. But considering that she does not play a role in Túrin's story prior to that point, it would be possible to work with that restriction.
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This would definitely reduce the screentime for Nienor and also her agency and bravery in deciding to follow her mother when told to stay behind. So I agree with Ilana on this one, and wouldn't want to only discover Niniel = Nienor at the end.

When Morwen and Nienor are travelling to Doriath, I would imagine they might want to not exactly parade around openly displaying who they are. I can't recall the time of year, but they might be very rugged up, muffled, hooded and cloaked etc. Random Brethil human seeing some people on the road isn't going to observe closely and then figure out later that their de facto chief's new girlfriend is very familiar...

And as far as worrying about the visual similarity between Lalaith and Niniel, well, one died in childhood, and Niniel was an adult. And how well would Turin have memorised his sister's appearance to be able to match it years later? There were no pictures to continue to fix her visage in his mind's eye...
 
Ilana Mushin said:
and Nienor looks like Hurin (Tall and blonde).
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and her late older sister Urwen called Lalaith.

Ilana Mushin said:
I imagine it is next to impossible to travel around Beleriand at this point. Brethil is the only ’safe haven’ for Edain, and that’s not saying much. So even if Niniel is curious about her past, going out to seek it is not straighforward. And she feels there is a shadow in her past this might factor into her not wanting to find out. With all of the orcs around, she may assume that everyone else is dead. I think this is what the men of Brethil in general are going to think.
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But Doriath is just over the river and she has no known trouble with them. Turin himself would not go there, of course, but she very much can. And elves are a source of gossip and do know stuff and beyond that they often are clairvoyant. Any companion could take Niniel to an elvish border guard to ask some questions - not much trouble doing that.

EDIT: [o.k. - this could be handled by showing an attempt of doing just that that is hindered by some mishap on the way and has to be given up on...]

MithLuin said:
'serves him right, the fool.'
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That is the problem I see with the story. The irrationality of both Turin and Nienor is so grand at times that there is a feeling that their early death was unavoidable anyway and at least they now are no longer in the position to harm any more surrounding people by their stupidity. The unborn child, were it to inherit the stupidity of its both parents - is probably better off dead too. Their tragedy seem self-made by their both simple refusal to think...
So there is the risk the audience would actually feel relief that Turin and his sister are finally dead and their self-made tragedy is over... This is what the expression "to dumb to live" means.

Of course there is an ancient idea going back to ancient Greece that "whom a god wishes to ruin, he first deprives of reason/when a god will punish, he will first take away the understanding."
but imho that would make Morgoth far too understanding of human nature and how to corrupt it...
As far I understand Morgoth is not that far into human psychology, that far more becomes Sauron's area of expertise and that later in time.

David_M_R said:
Random Brethil human seeing some people on the road isn't going to observe closely and then figure out later that their de facto chief's new girlfriend is very familiar...
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It is general war time. There have to be Brethil scouts watching the highway. The scouts' duty is to observe and identify foreign people passing by and to find out their purpose. Those are usualy trained and/or naturally gifted fot that purpose. The journey along Brethil takes about a day on horseback. You have to make breakes for the horses and people to rest and drink. Not a distance you could run through with hoods on unrecognised or unnoticed.

People would recognise Morwen either by remembering her or by her entourage. She would not travel that far with her daugther alone, she would have some of her servants and men from her household with her. There are not so many noble houses among humans as yet to lose track of them...
 
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David_M_R said:
This would definitely reduce the screentime for Nienor and also her agency and bravery in deciding to follow her mother when told to stay behind. So I agree with Ilana on this one, and wouldn't want to only discover Niniel = Nienor at the end.

When Morwen and Nienor are travelling to Doriath, I would imagine they might want to not exactly parade around openly displaying who they are. I can't recall the time of year, but they might be very rugged up, muffled, hooded and cloaked etc. Random Brethil human seeing some people on the road isn't going to observe closely and then figure out later that their de facto chief's new girlfriend is very familiar...

And as far as worrying about the visual similarity between Lalaith and Niniel, well, one died in childhood, and Niniel was an adult. And how well would Turin have memorised his sister's appearance to be able to match it years later? There were no pictures to continue to fix her visage in his mind's eye...
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Agreed - it's a tradeoff, and not necessarily a good one. I am most comfortable doing the story this way if Episode 12 is Túrin vs Glaurung, while Episode 13 is the story of Nienor (as Octoburn suggested). Because I don't want to lose her choices or agency, either. I do want to tell Nienor's story. If we can find a balance between preserving Túrin's point of view and still telling the story of how Nienor came to encounter Glaurung in the first place, I think we'll be good. Usually, the challenge with telling part of the story in flashback is that...there's no stakes. We know what's going to happen to these characters later, so why are we invested in the flashback storyline? In this case, I think the question of 'how is Níniel really Nienor?' would give some interest and investment to the flashback...but I am much more of a fan of out-of-order storytelling than Professor Olsen is, so it's quite possible he will dislike this suggestion intensely. We'll see in Season 8!

Even if we don't tell the audience who Níniel is, and even if they have not read any of the source material, there will be those who suspect her identity based on two simple details - she is blond (which is rare in the House of Haleth, and therefore uncommon in Brethil, but very common in Dor-lómin), and her name is a 'bookend' with Lalaith. Mystery woman who shows up in a story with *this* much misfortune? Dude, she's gonna turn out to be a villain who backstabs you or related to you... Tolkien wrote (but crossed out) the line that Túrin looked for Lalaith in the face of every woman he met...meaning that Níniel's similarity to Urwen is what attracted Túrin to her!

But if the audience is not sure what Níniel's deal is, there is likely to be more sympathy with Túrin for not figuring it out sooner. If the audience knows all along, the 'cringe' factor of watching him unwittingly build a romance with his own sister is going to be prolonged...and possibly make the show nearly unwatchable for those episodes. Túrin and Níniel will be happy at their wedding - the audience will want to throw things at them. That disconnect will be very strong, and I'm not sure the storytelling can recover from that.

Nienor's identity is only one of the moments of dramatic irony in the Túrin story (though arguably the most significant one). Other examples include:
  • The reader is aware that Beleg is rescuing Túrin from captivity, when he wakes up and finds himself being attacked in the dark. So, Túrin attacking and killing Beleg is something that we know he's making a mistake about as it happens, while Túrin doesn't learn his mistake until the lightning flashes. We could show Túrin's viewpoint of being a captive, and let Beleg's rescue be a surprise...but that would be an odd choice to make. The delay between the audience finding out that Túrin has killed Beleg, and Túrin figuring out that he has killed Beleg, is a matter of seconds. Telling the story of Beleg's rescue in flashback after his death rather than in real-time would be a weird choice to make. The only reason to do that would be if we were sticking to a 'strictly Túrin's point of view' telling of the story - in which case he would have to learn what happened from Gwindor.

  • The reader is aware that Glaurung's words to Túrin telling him to go to Dor-lómin to rescue his mother and sister are a lie immediately, and also aware that Finduilas is actually a captive of orcs. In other words, while reading the story, you know that Túrin makes the wrong choice when he goes to Dor-lómin rather than attempting to rescue Finduilas. The narrator tells us that he's sealing his fate by doing this. It's a very ominous and clearly incorrect decision. In the adaptation, it would make sense not to give the audience any narrative 'help' in figuring all of that out. The audience will have every reason to suspect that the dragon's words are a lie, but if the audience doesn't really know where Morwen and Nienor are at that moment...then Túrin being anxious to check on them will make sense. It's still the wrong choice, but not a 'no, you idiot!' wrong choice. The audience would discover the truth that they have already left Dor-lómin to go to Doriath at the same time Túrin learns this information. Alternatively, we could show Morwen and Nienor leave for Doriath, so that the audience is well aware that Túrin won't find them there when he goes to Dor-lómin. This is another place where we have to decide how much the audience knows vs what Túrin knows.
 
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Odola said:
and her late older sister Urwen called Lalaith.



But Doriath is just over the river and she has no known trouble with them. Turin himself would not go there, of course, but she very much can. And elves are a source of gossip and do know stuff and beyond that they often are clairvoyant. Any companion could take Niniel to an elvish border guard to ask some questions - not much trouble doing that.

EDIT: [o.k. - this could be handled by showing an attempt of doing just that that is hindered by some mishap on the way and has to be given up on...]



That is the problem I see with the story. The irrationality of both Turin and Nienor is so grand at times that there is a feeling that their early death was unavoidable anyway and at least they now are no longer in the position to harm any more surrounding people by their stupidity. The unborn child, were it to inherit the stupidity of its both parents - is probably better off dead too. Their tragedy seem self-made by their both simple refusal to think...
So there is the risk the audience would actually feel relief that Turin and his sister are finally dead and their self-made tragedy is over... This is what the expression "to dumb to live" means.

Of course there is an ancient idea going back to ancient Greece that "whom a god wishes to ruin, he first deprives of reason/when a god will punish, he will first take away the understanding."
but imho that would make Morgoth far too understanding of human nature and how to corrupt it...
As far I understand Morgoth is not that far into human psychology, that far more becomes Sauron's area of expertise and that later in time.



It is general war time. There have to be Brethil scouts watching the highway. The scouts' duty is to observe and identify foreign people passing by and to find out their purpose. Those are usualy trained and/or naturally gifted fot that purpose. The journey along Brethil takes about a day on horseback. You have to make breakes for the horses and people to rest and drink. Not a distance you could run through with hoods on unrecognised or unnoticed.

People would recognise Morwen either by remembering her or by her entourage. She would not travel that far with her daugther alone, she would have some of her servants and men from her household with her. There are not so many noble houses among humans as yet to lose track of them...
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Would Morwen have even sought shelter with the Haladin? She's pretty disdainful of them. "If the great House of Hador falls, in what holes shall the little Folk of Haleth creep?"
 
Anything that shows Nienor from a late adolescent onwards (e.g. Morwen and Nienor getting to Doriath) is going to undermine keeping the Niniel/Nienor identity from the viewers. I’m not sure how to get around that one. I’m less against the flashback telling so long as we get a proper story for those two women. If we preserve the anonymity of Nienor (eg. By keeping the viewpoint on Turin alone so that we only hear about Morwen and Nienors whearabouts when he does) then that does make the story more completely focused on Turin throughout the season. So then doesn’t that make it a bit strange to suddenly have then shift to Morwen/Nienor in Ep13 (or a chunk of that episode)?

The story in the published Silmarillion is much more Turin only centric than the longer Children of Hurin so keeping Turin only perspective (e.g. So we see Beleg only when he does, we find out what happened to Finduilas only when he does) makes sense, but does have some costs.

It seems to me that the main cost/benefit issue for the Nienor/Niniel reveal is whether we are planning to also tell the story of Morwen and Nienor in S8 alongside Turin. There is more we can do, for example, with what happens in Dor Lomin under the Easterlings (the time when Nienor is born and a small child), if we want to. It’s an opportunity to explore a bit about the attitude and politics of Easterlings who fought for Morgoth and are disappointed in what they have ‘gained’ from that alliance. However that comes with the cost of the viewer knowing Nienor as a character (rather than as a hearsay report) and thus knowing her identity from the outset.

I‘m less squeamish about watching the car crash of their relationship unfold on screen (knowing it can only end in tragedy) as everything Turin has touched so far has ended in tragedy. It is the opposite of watching a show where you know that the ‘hero’ is going to survive. I just watched season 1 of ‘The Last Kingdom’ (recommended) where the viewer KNOWS that the hero is going to come out alive despite many near death experiences because he is the narrator). There were times when I was a bit frustrated by this but mostly you just go on watching and being interested in HOW they are going to escape what seems like certain death. This would be playing with the converse. There are ways of creating tension, especially with Brandir’s current resistance to their relationship, and in Niniel’s initial hesitancy.

Another way we could keep up some dramatic tension is the impact this is having on imprisoned Hurin. This is part of Morgoth’s torture of Hurin. Will Hurin break at this point? He doesn’t. We need to show characters who do not kill themselves in despair, who maintain estel, and Hurin would seem to be one of those. This is the point at which Hurin is released from Angband. We can show that he is unbowed (although as it will turn out, very embittered and corrupted by his skewed vision of what has happened).
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Would Morwen have even sought shelter with the Haladin? She's pretty disdainful of them. "If the great House of Hador falls, in what holes shall the little Folk of Haleth creep?"
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Grand words do not preclude practicality. It is something else to seek permanent protection from an hour's rest during a journey. You do not have to value motel staff to a great degree.
 
Another thing with dramatic irony is using it as a time bomb of sorts. In essence, the audience is let in on something that'll be important later on; it doesn't go off quite yet, but they just know the proverbial shoe is going to drop and when it is dropped, it's also a question of how much damage is caused and who has the most to gain. It's like a bomb in Hitchcock films; the audience knows it's there, but their attention is focused on the bomb and how much damage it would do.

For example in the film Air Force One, the audience learns shortly after the titular plane takes off that Gibbs, one of the Secret Service agents onboard, is a traitor working with the film's villains; he kills three agents, opens the plane's armory, then sets off a smoke bomb to signal that the attack can begin. From that point, Gibbs is like a time bomb: he gets taken hostage along with whoever survives the hijacking and stays silent while two hostages are executed, then elects to stay onboard the plane (presumably he doesn't want to look like he just abandoned the president) while President Marshall frees himself and kills the villains. Then at the very end of the film, when the plane's state has taken for the worse, going into a sharp descent so that only one other person can be rescued, Gibbs reveals his true colors as a traitor, shooting the pararescue officer and the other military officer onboard, leaving President Marshall and Gibbs in a fight to take the rescue harness before the plane crashes.

In the same film, going the other way, President Marshall is escorted down to the escape pod bay as the plane is taken over, but when the pod is retrieved... there's no President inside. He's really still onboard and makes things difficult for the terrorists by killing a couple and dumping fuel; until he's captured later in the film, the terrorists, hostages, and government figures on the ground believe that the President is a Secret Service agent unaccounted for who's still fighting.

Similarly in the miniseries Belgravia, the big secret is revealed early on that Sophia Trenchard and Viscount Edmund Bellasis had a child together before he was killed at Waterloo, a boy named Charles Pope. Sophia's mother Anne reveals this to the Viscount's mother the Countess of Brockenhurst under confidence that she'll say nothing as Anne and her husband James don't want Sophia's reputation tarnished. However, Lady Brockenhurst yearns to know the grandson who'd been kept from her for 25 years and in some way to punish Anne for accusing Edmund of seducing Sophia. So she approaches Charles, now a businessman in London, under the guise of investing in his company, and invites him to a soiree... to which she also invites the Trenchards. Awkward tensions ensue, particularly when Charles reveals that he already knows James because James has mentored him in business. Now everyone wonders "What are a great lady and a builder doing in investing with this obscure businessman?" And this is the whole point for Lady Brockenhurst: she wants people to guess at Charles' identity. She wouldn't have broken her word but the secret would be out nonetheless, and the Trenchards are left waiting for their reputation to be ruined. Admittedly the two who have the most to gain from the secret, Lady Brockenhurst's brother-in-law and nephew, go on the wrong tangent and think that Charles is James' son until a third party comes forth with information of a connection between Sophia and Edmund.
 
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I’ve also been thinking that a LOT of the Turin/Niniel story is around hesitancy and resistance to having an intimate relationship. Niniel’s heart is turned towards Turin but we don’t have to depict this like this is a sexual attraction. Same for Turin. It could confuse the both of them. Brandir is against the relationship as he is in love with Niniel. One of the reasons that Niniel wants to get married to Turin is that she wants to keep him safe - and he is promising to stay safe within Brethil if they wed. That’s not about sexual desire. She might be askiing herself why she is not drawn to Brandir but is to Turin, given that Brandir is a ‘safer’ option (and we could cast him as good-looking).

Once Niniel and Turin DO decide to get married, we can move to the Dragon slaying section of the story pretty quickly - we don’t have to show a long romance between them, in other words.
 
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