Narrative Irony in the Túrin story

[Odola]

Also it's hard to recognize someone who's wearing no clothes and haven't seen in awhile. Think of the film L.A. Confidential when Susan Lefforts' mother has to identify her, but she initially doesn't because Susan has dyed her hair "My Susie was a blonde, not a redhead" and she's only identified via the birthmark on her hip.

we are in a time before hairdye other than lime and henna...

While this might be with somebody who knows somebody mainly in a special socia context and has some expectation how this person should look and behave, a person who saw an unexpected stranger passing by is less easily fooled by clothing but focuses more assesing the person - as this is important to see if the unknown person is dangerous or not.

And nobody said Turin should present the found girl around the villages naked, she would be clad in a simple wool or linen shirt - or do you imagne Nienor living naked the whole time among the companions?

 

[MithLuin]

Túrin is aware that Morwen and Nienor have gone to Doriath after he goes to Dor-lómin and speaks with Aerin. He goes to Brethil after that, where he learns of Finduilas' death. The entire time he is in Brethil, he thinks his mother and sister are safely in Doriath. So, the information he is missing is not that Morwen and Nienor went to Doriath, but that Morwen and Nienor have LEFT Doriath. As they did so secretly in the wake of the fall of Nargothrond, it's not surprising that that news did not get out. While Morwen is known to the people of Brethil, Nienor is not. So, yes, it is possible that someone could have seen Nienor travel through the area...but apparently any interaction was unremarkable, and Níniel isn't recognized in Brethil (where she dresses as a woman of Brethil, not a woman of Dor-lómin).

I don't see this situation as straining credulity.

 

[Odola]

So, the information he is missing is not that Morwen and Nienor went to Doriath, but that Morwen and Nienor have LEFT Doriath.

Thank you for clarifiying that. I remembered this wrong then.

I don't see this situation as straining credulity.

But then if he knows his sister is living nearby and then when he finds a girl his sister's age who resembles their dead sister who he does remember, why does he not ask the obvious questions?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

we are in a time before hairdye other than lime and henna...

While this might be with somebody who knows somebody mainly in a special socia context and has some expectation how this person should look and behave, a person who saw an unexpected stranger passing by is less easily fooled by clothing but focuses more assesing the person - as this is important to see if the unknown person is dangerous or not.

And nobody said Turin should present the found girl around the villages naked, she would be clad in a simple wool or linen shirt - or do you imagne Nienor living naked the whole time among the companions?

...where did I say Nienor was living naked the whole time?

Túrin is aware that Morwen and Nienor have gone to Doriath after he goes to Dor-lómin and speaks with Aerin. He goes to Brethil after that, where he learns of Finduilas' death. The entire time he is in Brethil, he thinks his mother and sister are safely in Doriath. So, the information he is missing is not that Morwen and Nienor went to Doriath, but that Morwen and Nienor have LEFT Doriath. As they did so secretly in the wake of the fall of Nargothrond, it's not surprising that that news did not get out. While Morwen is known to the people of Brethil, Nienor is not. So, yes, it is possible that someone could have seen Nienor travel through the area...but apparently any interaction was unremarkable, and Níniel isn't recognized in Brethil (where she dresses as a woman of Brethil, not a woman of Dor-lómin).

I don't see this situation as straining credulity.

I thought Morwen and Nienor left for Doriath before the Fall of Nargothrond, at least in the published Children of Húrin.

 

[Odola]

...where did I say Nienor was living naked the whole time?

Also it's hard to recognize someone who's wearing no clothes and haven't seen in awhile.

This was referring to the inhabitants of Brethil not recognising Nienor whom some of them have seen on her way to Doriath 2 years before.
Why would those see her naked? She would soon be clad...

I thought Morwen and Nienor left for Doriath before the Fall of Nargothrond, at least in the published Children of Húrin.

According to the timeline yes, but Morwen and Nienor left Doriath for Nargothrond after its Fall? They found only ruins there?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

As Turin thinks his mother and sister are in Doriath, I don’t see why he should recognise Nienor as a relative. If he has received reports of what she looks like, it will be child-Nienor, not adult-Nienor. He hasn’t seen his father since he was 7. He feels a connection with Nienor when he meets her but draws the wrong conclusions from that, and that seems feasible to me. I don’t see any of this as stretching incredulity. He might even think she looks like someone with roots in Dor Lomin without concluding that it is a close relative (Since he assumes his sister is in Doriath so out of consideration here). Presumbly her manner of speech would be that of the folk of Dor Lomin, for example - plus she is tall and blonde. But lots of the women of that region would be tall and blonde.

 

[Odola]

Presumbly her manner of speech would be that of the folk of Dor Lomin, for example - plus she is tall and blonde. But lots of the women of that region would be tall and blonde.

She does not know how to speak when he meets her and has to relearn it - still she seems to relearn it very fast for an adult - usually this would take a longer time. Still Doriath is nearby, the girl he finds is not local and clearly very disturbed. She is not a random normal local village girl who can give account of herself - there is clearly something very wrong with her. This would require in depth investigation as the Girdle could have a confusing effect on anyone and he cannot dismiss his sister having gone on an outing or hunting - as noble ladies are want to do - and gone through the Girdle from the inside and now being confused as a result. And he knows of the Girdle. So this would be clearly a thing to rule out if he meets a girl his sisters age, resembling his family and who cannot expain her identity. Confused girls do not fall from the sky, she must have come from somewhere...

I do agree with Niniel that just waiting alone and delaying the marriage in itself would not have helped the matter either when she was adviced to wait before marrying by her other suitor - how long should have have waited? 10 or 50 years? But actively seaking out information about herself and her identity before she commits would have done the trick. She might very well have been married already before with some small kids desperately needing her back for all that she does not know about herself...

The Niniel acts stupid is no wonder - she has never seemed to act reasonable in-story. Turin also seems not very eager on using his brain. But at least some of his companions should be able to display normal reasoning capabilities...

I really do not know how the story can be told without showing both Nienor and Turin as "to stupid to live" in the end.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Please do remember also the geography.

Brethil is not very large. It a place Morwen knows from her childhood there. There are still older people around that remember her - it had only been a few decades. The news of her passing through it will spread among the humans remaining there. As such someone of Turin companions must have heard about her passing through, even if he had not realised her connection to Turin. If Turin does not hear about his mother having passed this nearby during the year before his marriage to Niniel then other far more remote places having instant knowlegde of for them completely irrelevant and abstruse local private family matters like the mortality status of reclused princess with no political aspirations - a status that is probably not even known to her very own father - seems even more random and incosistant by comparison - who would ever think to ask for such an unthinkable question like one of the Eldar becoming a mortal - this is to much "out there" for anyone to even consider a possibility, much less to specificly enquire about it.

On the other hand Morwen doesn't like the Haladin, doesn't she scoff at the idea of seeking shelter with them shortly before the Nirnaeth? This could explain why Túrin doesn't make himself known to them at first (aside from his liking for concealing his identity).

 

[MithLuin]

The Túrin story is about this:

Does fate rule our lives? Or is it our own choices that bring about the circumstances we find ourselves in?

And the answer presented in the story is "yes".

It's a combination of both. Húrin's children are cursed by Morgoth. This is explicit, and the *spectacular* bad luck of their circumstances speaks to this. But Túrin is also rash and proud, and thus his own choices help bring about his downfall.

In this case of his relationship with Níniel, they both have to make a 'mistake' and choice...but the circumstance itself was brought about by Glaurung.

So, that's what we'll be trying to show in our adaptation and telling of the story.

I'm not a fan of the phrase 'too stupid to live,' as misfortune can befall anyone, and being clever is not the most important aspect of life or survival. But I will also point out that these two do not survive their encounter with the truth of their situation. They don't live.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

The Túrin story is about this:

Does fate rule our lives? Or is it our own choices that bring about the circumstances we find ourselves in?

And the answer presented in the story is "yes".

It's a combination of both. Húrin's children are cursed by Morgoth. This is explicit, and the *spectacular* bad luck of their circumstances speaks to this. But Túrin is also rash and proud, and thus his own choices help bring about his downfall.

In this case of his relationship with Níniel, they both have to make a 'mistake' and choice...but the circumstance itself was brought about by Glaurung.

So, that's what we'll be trying to show in our adaptation and telling of the story.

I'm not a fan of the phrase 'too stupid to live,' as misfortune can befall anyone, and being clever is not the most important aspect of life or survival. But I will also point out that these two do not survive their encounter with the truth of their situation. They don't live.

It isn't just Túrin and Nienor's mistakes, Morwen makes her own when she refuses to humble herself as a guest (okay she eventually does but it takes awhile), which the writing explicitly refers to as the first seeds of Túrin's fate being sown.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

But actively seaking out information about herself and her identity before she commits would have done the trick. She might very well have been married already before with some small kids desperately needing her back for all that she does not know about herself...

The Niniel acts stupid is no wonder - she has never seemed to act reasonable in-story. Turin also seems not very eager on using his brain. But at least some of his companions should be able to display normal reasoning capabilities...

I imagine it is next to impossible to travel around Beleriand at this point. Brethil is the only ’safe haven’ for Edain, and that’s not saying much. So even if Niniel is curious about her past, going out to seek it is not straighforward. And she feels there is a shadow in her past this might factor into her not wanting to find out. With all of the orcs around, she may assume that everyone else is dead. I think this is what the men of Brethil in general are going to think.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

When it comes to character decisions, they can be stupid as well as part of their character. Take the 1999 version of The Mummy where you have two competing expeditions to Hamunaptura, a lost Egyptian city; one group is headed by Brendan Fraser's Rick O'Connell and Rachel Weisz's Evy Carnahan while the other has a trio of American adventurers and an Egyptologist. The Americans are greedy (unlike O'Connell) and have a liking for shooting their way out of problems (which also applies to O'Connell), plus taking joy in a gunfight. Another attack occurs at their campsite and they take it as a sign that there's treasure waiting for them at Hamunaptura. True to form, the Americans find a chest with a curse on it and open it up to take the book and canopic jars inside, which makes them targets for the titular mummy Imhotep when he's awoken and starts killing them to regenerate his body. They're whittled down to a single man, Daniels, and when the remaining main characters try to escape from a mob controlled by Imhotep, Daniels is dragged from the getaway car and tries to shoot his way out, but only attracts the attention of the mob. He might have had a chance to escape and meet back up with the others, but he defaults to his instinct to shoot his way out and seals his fate when Imhotep arrives and consumes him. Stupid? Yes. In character? Also yes.

 

[MithLuin]

One difference is that Túrin will be our point of view character, so the audience should be very sympathetic to him by the end of the season. More of an 'oh, Túrin, no!' response than 'serves him right, the fool.'

By the end of Season 8, the audience should understand why Túrin is falling on his sword. He will have made mistakes, yes, but also be outwitted by the dragon he has slain. His success in slaying the dragon will be overshadowed by the subsequent deaths of Nienor and Túrin, casting a pall over the entire season.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Túrin is falling on his sword

Asking the sword to take his life… BTW that’s always been my reaction to the Children of Hurin story (in all of its published versions) - ‘oh no Turin!’ Is about right. I’ve always pitied him - and not because of the curse of Morgoth but because he actually always tries to do the right thing and it always goes so horrible wrong. He does actually learn from at least some of his mistakes, but too little too late…

 

[Octoburn]

While I see the benefits of using narrative irony in this case, I feel the story best served without it.

That said, I would hate to completely lose (our knowledge of) Nienor and Morwen until the last episode or so, but any glimpse of Nienor once they arrive in Doriath will spoil the end.

About the best option to avoid narrative irony would be to follow Turin up to the point he kills Glaurung in the penultimate episode. End the episode when he gets Glaurung's blood on him and swoons. Open the last episode with Nienor approaching Glaurung, the tells how she is Turin's sister, etc. and undoes his spell. We do a pretty lengthy flashback of her life from leaving Dor-Lomin until the meets Glaurung the first time, ending the episode as we know the story ends, and an epilogue of Hurin being released and finding Morwen at the Stone.

A good example of this kind of twist, while avoiding narrative irony, is the Josh Brolin film Oldboy. Don't watch it with your kids, but it's a pretty awesome movie.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

While I see the benefits of using narrative irony in this case, I feel the story best served without it.

That said, I would hate to completely lose (our knowledge of) Nienor and Morwen until the last episode or so, but any glimpse of Nienor once they arrive in Doriath will spoil the end.

About the best option to avoid narrative irony would be to follow Turin up to the point he kills Glaurung in the penultimate episode. End the episode when he gets Glaurung's blood on him and swoons. Open the last episode with Nienor approaching Glaurung, the tells how she is Turin's sister, etc. and undoes his spell. We do a pretty lengthy flashback of her life from leaving Dor-Lomin until the meets Glaurung the first time, ending the episode as we know the story ends, and an epilogue of Hurin being released and finding Morwen at the Stone.

A good example of this kind of twist, while avoiding narrative irony, is the Josh Brolin film Oldboy. Don't watch it with your kids, but it's a pretty awesome movie.

You'd have to explain it to Professor Olsen, who's apparently expressed a dislike of flashbacks.

Something else I think with dramatic irony isn't so much the secret but who reveals the secret and what damage it causes. Take Downton Abbey for instance: in the first half of the show the big secret is that Kemal Pamuk, a Turkish diplomat, dies in Mary Crawley's bed. The first people who know of this are Mary's maid Anna and her mother Cora since they have to help move the corpse, but others are Daisy the kitchen maid (who saw the three moving the corpse) and Thomas the footman (who helped Pamuk find Mary's room in the first place). But the one who does the most damage with the secret is Mary's sister Edith, who, after coaxing it out of Daisy, writes to the Turkish embassy and word spreads around London, soiling Mary's reputation. Mary learns that Edith was the rat and goes out of her way to sabotage Edith's relationship with her beau Sir Anthony Strallan... which also infects other plots throughout the first half of the show, most notably Mary's foolish engagement with a newspaper magnate because he'd buy the story.

In the case of The Children of Húrin, Túrin initially doesn't believe Brandir when he reveals Niniel was really Nienor, believing it's slander given Brandir disliked Túrin, and kills him in anger. It isn't until he finds Mablung who corroborates Brandir that he realizes that Brandir was right. Plus Brandir's death really sticks in Gurthang's craw when it speaks before Túrin takes his life.

 

[Octoburn]

You'd have to explain it to Professor Olsen, who's apparently expressed a dislike of flashbacks.

I'm not fond of flashback myself.

But this wouldn't really be a traditional flashback, it's a HUGE flashback that has major reprecussions on the entire story.

In the truest sense, isn't SilmFilm just one big flashback from a Third Age perspective?

I just feel the justification of this flashback is that it impacts the story in a huge way.

But we may just stick with a straightforward telling of the story, and I'm cool with that too.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

One of the costs of doing Morwen and Nienor's story in flashback is that it downplays their story and the strength of their characters. In the text story, we all know that Niniel is Nienor. I've never had an issue with this, but perhaps others have.I know that Turin will be our POV character in S8 but the story is not called the 'Children of Hurin' for nothing! I'm keen for Nienor's (and Morwen's) story to be part of the telling of this tale and not relegated to a flashback, if possible.

If done in a flashback, we would also have to tell the story of Mablung going to Nargothrond to check things out in flashback. There would be costs to this too, I'm guessing.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

One of the costs of doing Morwen and Nienor's story in flashback is that it downplays their story and the strength of their characters. In the text story, we all know that Niniel is Nienor. I've never had an issue with this, but perhaps others have.I know that Turin will be our POV character in S8 but the story is not called the 'Children of Hurin' for nothing! I'm keen for Nienor's (and Morwen's) story to be part of the telling of this tale and not relegated to a flashback, if possible.

If done in a flashback, we would also have to tell the story of Mablung going to Nargothrond to check things out in flashback. There would be costs to this too, I'm guessing.

It's also in-character for Morwen to insist on looking for Túrin herself, with her stubborn pride dooming both herself and Nienor to falling afoul of Glaurung, just as it had started to doom Túrin.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

with her stubborn pride dooming both herself and Nienor to falling afoul of Glaurung.

I've got a different (and perhaps more 'feminist') take on what the narrator calls 'pride' for Morwen which I'm hoping we can explore in S7 and 8. For me, Morwen is making difficult choices as a mother, and she's carrying a lot of mother's guilt for sending Turin away (given how that turned out for him at the point she goes looking for him in Nargothrond). She's trying to juggle the interests and wellbeing of her two children. It's a terrible situation she's in.