Nature of Dior, son of Luthien and Beren, Eldar or Mortal?

WillChan

New Member
The conventional wisdom is that Dior, the offspring of Luthien and Beren, is considered to be an Eldar, but after reading the gestational period of an elf-child in the Nature of Middle Earth, I am beginning to question whether that is actually the case.

It seems to me that there is a rule in the Legendarium that if an "person" of mixed heritage choose to be numbered among the Atani, that decision binds all of that person's descendants (e.g.: Elros and Arwen). However, if that person choose to be numbered among the Eldar, his/her descendants retain the ability to choose to be numbered among either as an Eldar or Atani (e.g.: descendants of Elrond). I can sympathize with the later kings of Numenor complain about why the decision of Elros binds them, while to decision made by Elrond did not bind his descendants. Perhaps Eru views the Gift of Men to be of supreme importance that Eru did not want to deprive a "person" of mixed heritage the ability to accept that gift. Or it might be a more mundane and biological explanation to it in that because the Celebrian, the mother of the offspring of Elrond is an Eldar and could therefore gestate her offspring in the manner of an elf-child, while the mother of the offsprings of Elros is mortal and could only gestate her offsprings in the manner of a mortal.

Returning to the question of Dior, because he was begotten AFTER Luthien and Beren return from Mandos and Luthien haven chosen to be mortal, following the rule above, would Dior be mortal because he is offspring of two mortals?!

Any thoughts and comments on this will be greatly appreciated.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Nope. It is only about one specific family, the descendNts of earendil and elwing until their 3rd generation.ifüt has little to do with personal choice but is the judgement of Eru spoken by the Valar.A descendant of Eärendil and Elwing may choose to be either elf or mortal, but it doesn't influence their offspring's choice.. until 3rd generation, after that Vardamir and Arwens children are mortals.

As far as i understand it as the text goes.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The conventional wisdom is that Dior, the offspring of Luthien and Beren, is considered to be an Eldar, but after reading the gestational period of an elf-child in the Nature of Middle Earth, I am beginning to question whether that is actually the case.

It seems to me that there is a rule in the Legendarium that if an "person" of mixed heritage choose to be numbered among the Atani, that decision binds all of that person's descendants (e.g.: Elros and Arwen). However, if that person choose to be numbered among the Eldar, his/her descendants retain the ability to choose to be numbered among either as an Eldar or Atani (e.g.: descendants of Elrond). I can sympathize with the later kings of Numenor complain about why the decision of Elros binds them, while to decision made by Elrond did not bind his descendants. Perhaps Eru views the Gift of Men to be of supreme importance that Eru did not want to deprive a "person" of mixed heritage the ability to accept that gift. Or it might be a more mundane and biological explanation to it in that because the Celebrian, the mother of the offspring of Elrond is an Eldar and could therefore gestate her offspring in the manner of an elf-child, while the mother of the offsprings of Elros is mortal and could only gestate her offsprings in the manner of a mortal.

Returning to the question of Dior, because he was begotten AFTER Luthien and Beren return from Mandos and Luthien haven chosen to be mortal, following the rule above, would Dior be mortal because he is offspring of two mortals?!

Any thoughts and comments on this will be greatly appreciated.
My view is that Dior - while being legallty the heir of the House of Beor - choose his grand-father's Thingol's legacy and as such was counted legally not as "Beren's son" but as "Thingol's Heir". And I do hold that choice of a parent has no bearing on the choice of their offsping. People who are gestated and rised as elves but are legally human (by their agnatic descent) can at any time demand their legally claim to human fate to granted to them, but those who are both legally and factually human cannot - as they are already in accordance with their legally inherited fate and have no claim on the other.

As this problem has been started by Melian not being willing/able to get pregnant again after Luthien and giving Thingol a son, so making Luthien's son to be his grand-father's successor, the Valar have to go along with it. They have actually caused the problem themselves by setting Melian up to marry Thingol.

Edit: Actually , in the end, the whole "choice" thing ensured that the Ainur bloodline stayed present in both kinds of Eruhini. Maybe this is actually the basic motivation behind it, and the whole reason for it, actually.
 
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WillChan

New Member
Nope. It is only about one specific family, the descendNts of earendil and elwing until their 3rd generation.ifüt has little to do with personal choice but is the judgement of Eru spoken by the Valar.A descendant of Eärendil and Elwing may choose to be either elf or mortal, but it doesn't influence their offspring's choice.. until 3rd generation, after that Vardamir and Arwens children are mortals.

As far as i understand it as the text goes.
Thank you for you comment. I just noticed on the Tolkien Gateway website cited to the Nature of Middle Earth in reference to this issue. However, this leads me to another question, Vardamir and Arwen are the 3rd generation from Eärendil's lineage (Eärendil: Elrond and Elros: Arwen and Vardamir), but they are the 4th generation if we follow Elwing's lineage (Dior: Elwing: Elrond and Elros: Arwen and Vardamir). Does that mean that generational counting is patrilineal? Or does Dior not counted for purposes of the Grace of Eärendil because he predated the offering of that grace?

Also, the main difference between the an Eldar and mortal is the relations between the fëa with the hröa, which, and I am making a very big assumption here, results in the difference in the gestational periods of an elf-child and a human-child. What would be the gestational period for Vardamir and his siblings who are considered to be half-elven given the their mother is presumably an Edain?

One other thought on this. If one of the son of Elrond choose to become mortal, but marries an Elf-maiden, would that restart to generational cycle again or does the Grace of Eärendil extends only to Elrond's and Elros's offspring only?
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Thank you for you comment. I just noticed on the Tolkien Gateway website cited to the Nature of Middle Earth in reference to this issue. However, this leads me to another question, Vardamir and Arwen are the 3rd generation from Eärendil's lineage (Eärendil: Elrond and Elros: Arwen and Vardamir), but they are the 4th generation if we follow Elwing's lineage (Dior: Elwing: Elrond and Elros: Arwen and Vardamir). Does that mean that generational counting is patrilineal? Or does Dior not counted for purposes of the Grace of Eärendil because he predated the offering of that grace?

Also, the main difference between the an Eldar and mortal is the relations between the fëa with the hröa, which, and I am making a very big assumption here, results in the difference in the gestational periods of an elf-child and a human-child. What would be the gestational period for Vardamir and his siblings who are considered to be half-elven given the their mother is presumably an Edain?
That one of the reasons why I think Vardamir's being offered a choice makes no sense, and if he, then why not his brothers or sister? If Elros is the only "human choice" yet in the Ainur lineage, then making his children choose defies the goal to estabish a "human branch" of the Ainur bloodline.
The problem is, if all Elrond's children choose mortality, we have the same issue in reverse, we have nobody in the youngest generation left on the elvish side. So I think the goal of the Ainur is to make Eruhini "their" children after all by making sure Melian's descendants are present in both branches of the Eruhini. The normal thing would be to make Elrond's children unable to choose also, just like Elros' were. But that is legally not possible imho, their birthright of being legally human cannot be taken away from them and their have always the option to "re-"claim it, if they choose to do so.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
It all is not very logical if you think of it in systematic structures.I also cannot say i like it, but it seems to be the way the storyorks so i simply accept it.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
It all is not very logical if you think of it in systematic structures.I also cannot say i like it, but it seems to be the way the storyorks so i simply accept it.
Actually does it make sense. If Luthien had a brother he would be Thingol's heir and establish an elvish line of Melian's children so that Luthien's children could be all human according to their descent. But Melian is unwilling to get pregnant again, so this forced the Valar to become "creative" with the rules to achieve their goals of establishing an Ainur line in both men and elves.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Gee...
Logic is what you make if it right?
Did not get it.

But if the Valar are to be whimsical then let them be whimsical for a reason. They do have their own agendas. This is fine with me. I much more prefer agendas to mere caprice and incoherence.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Allright, but i don't see it in the material.Not reasonably.I see it there because JRRT WANTED it this way.He could easily have decided otherwisely, like reviving Luthien's brother Tinfang or any other choice, yet he didn't and i fail to recognoze the reasons for it within the logic/necessity of the story itself.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Allright, but i don't see it in the material.Not reasonably.I see it there because JRRT WANTED it this way.He could easily have decided otherwisely, like reviving Luthien's brother Tinfang or any other choice, yet he didn't and i fail to recognoze the reasons for it within the logic/necessity of the story itself.
I see the reason in the story itself. Of course having Tinfang there would resolve 1/3 of the tension and the drama. And what a story would be that? Letting go of a good problem? Tolkien created the problem so we can enjoy the attempts of its resolution. Just like a detective story writer must have the murder first. Tinfang stood in the way of one of the interesting problems of the story, so he had to go.

More personally I do think Tolkien simply wanted Elrond to be Thingol's heir. So he removed both Luthien's and Elwing's brother(s) and Elrond's own clone Elros by different means out of the stoy to cut the way clear for his favourite Elrond. An authorian royal intrigue - so to speak.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Now we're talking! Elrond has to be thingol's heir... that is a reason and solution that i understand!
And also Thingol's "heir repairant" - because Elrond gives Arwen away - just like Aragorn is Isildur's.

The situation it interesting as we have simultaniously Thingol's clone Thranduil and Thingol's heir Elrond in the picture. And both are "Melian-less" - as our times' Melian - Galadriel - lives independant in her own realm, with a husband "Wise" enough not to contradict her. ;-)
 
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