Prophecy of Huan

[Octoburn]

I don't think there is really a proper place to ask these questions, so the first episode of the current season's thread seems most appropriate

I have yet to read all of this season's scripts. Is Huan featured much at all? I remember discussions about him during season 3, but don't remember him coming up at all in season 4. I think if we forget about him for a few seasons he seems like a Deus Ex Machina in Season 6.

Speaking of Deus Ex Mechina: Has his prophecy been brought up at all yet? I was actually thinking about this during season 3. If we wait to mention that until season 6, he seems even more like a D-E-M. "This dog you've been watching for 6 years, OH! he can talk! but only three times. it was prophesied. at some point." I thought it should have been brought up in season 3, in Valinor, by one of the Valar, seems most fitting.

again, I know there really isn't an appropriate place to ask this, and it doesn't pertain to this episode, but here it is.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I don't think there is really a proper place to ask these questions, so the first episode of the current season's thread seems most appropriate

I have yet to read all of this season's scripts. Is Huan featured much at all? I remember discussions about him during season 3, but don't remember him coming up at all in season 4. I think if we forget about him for a few seasons he seems like a Deus Ex Machina in Season 6.

Yes, basically any time Celegorm is a heavy presence in an episode, Huan's right there, including in the season finale.

Speaking of Deus Ex Mechina: Has his prophecy been brought up at all yet? I was actually thinking about this during season 3. If we wait to mention that until season 6, he seems even more like a D-E-M. "This dog you've been watching for 6 years, OH! he can talk! but only three times. it was prophesied. at some point." I thought it should have been brought up in season 3, in Valinor, by one of the Valar, seems most fitting.

Yes, we don't have full scripts for S03. I recall talking about a scene where Huan decided to follow Celegorm despite the clear rebellion against the Valar, but I don't remember whether or not that was ultimately included. That would be the perfect point at which the prophecy could be brought up.

 

[MithLuin]

I agree the prophecy should be a Season 2-3 thing (when Huan is introduced) IF the prophecy has its origin in Valinor. The ones who know about the prophecy (and are doing anything about it) seem to be...Morgoth and Sauron. So...perhaps it should be a Middle-earth prophecy? Don't know who would issue it. (The Maia who becomes Glaurung? That would make it a Season 5 thing, which is at least before Season 6....)

I know you didn't realize whether or not it was relevant to this particular episode, but it turns out, it is! We had to choose characters to accompany Maglor to the meeting with Fingolfin during the climax of this episode, and it was decided that Celegorm should definitely be there, so that Huan is as well. It gives an added feeling of menace to the Fëanorean side (oh, sure, I only brought so many soldiers with me, but one of them is a giant killer dog who can definitely rip an elf's throat out...should he be so inclined), but the real deciding factor was that it would put Huan and Thorondor on screen at the same time. They don't have much interaction here, but there can be eye contact of the 'oh hey, you're caught up in this, too' variety.

 

[Octoburn]

I agree the prophecy should be a Season 3 thing (when Huan is introduced) IF the prophecy has its origin in Valinor. The ones who know about the prophecy (and are doing anything about it) seem to be...Morgoth and Sauron. So...perhaps it should be a Middle-earth prophecy? Don't know who would issue it.

Yeah, I'm not sure about it being a Middle-earth thing. How would Morgoth know? Who would even give it in Middle-earth? Melian is the only one who really seems qualified, and she never comes in contact with Celegorm, and therefore not Huan.

So, we could either have it happen in Valinor (in season 2, when Morgoth is present, and would know of the prophecy) OR have Luthien give it at the Mereth Aderthad? Luthien is borderline qualified, and this would give Sauron/Thuringwethil a chance to overhear it. But it may be too on the nose to have her deliver the prophecy that will aid her own quest.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Yeah, I'm not sure about it being a Middle-earth thing. How would Morgoth know? Who would even give it in Middle-earth? Melian is the only one who really seems qualified, and she never comes in contact with Celegorm, and therefore not Huan.

This is definitely something I had not thought of before, because obviously both Morgoth and Sauron are aware of the prophecy. They both take explicit measures to counter it.


Here's my suggestion: separate the components of the prophecy. There is nothing necessitating their being delivered at the same time, or even by the same person.

If the "speak three times with words" comes from Oromë in S03, that seems perfectly sufficient.

In the case of not meeting death "until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world": there's an opportunity here. We could easily set up an antagonism between Huan and Draughluin in S05, and let DRAUGHLUIN delivery this prophecy. It would bring a ton more impact to their ultimate confrontation on the bridge of Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

 

[Octoburn]

This is definitely something I had not thought of before, because obviously both Morgoth and Sauron are aware of the prophecy. They both take explicit measures to counter it.


Here's my suggestion: separate the components of the prophecy. There is nothing necessitating their being delivered at the same time, or even by the same person.

If the "speak three times with words" comes from Oromë in S03, that seems perfectly sufficient.

In the case of not meeting death "until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world": there's an opportunity here. We could easily set up an antagonism between Huan and Draughluin in S05, and let DRAUGHLUIN delivery this prophecy. It would bring a ton more impact to their ultimate confrontation on the bridge of Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

I like the idea of separating it, and of someone in Valinor speaking the first part (Orome, Mandos, Yavanna?) But I'm not sure about Draugluin delivering the other part. I don't think he is qualified, personally, and feel like, with the above suggestion of Luthien, is too close to the prophecy to speak it.

Perhaps Melian (in season 6, I'm stretching a lot here), when she hears a report back from Beleg, who tracks her down after she escapes Hirilorn, and tells her she's escaped Nargothrond with a hound. She would deliver the line about not being slain but by the greatest wolf ever. This, of course, leaves Morgoth and Sauron out of the loop. So, it won't work.

We could drop it into one of the scenes Thuringwethil spies on, or at the Mereth Aderthad, where Sauron and Thuringwethil are spying? I really don't see another elegant way to do it outside of that.

 

[Rhiannon]

I don't think there is really a proper place to ask these questions, so the first episode of the current season's thread seems most appropriate

I have yet to read all of this season's scripts. Is Huan featured much at all? I remember discussions about him during season 3, but don't remember him coming up at all in season 4. I think if we forget about him for a few seasons he seems like a Deus Ex Machina in Season 6.

Speaking of Deus Ex Mechina: Has his prophecy been brought up at all yet? I was actually thinking about this during season 3. If we wait to mention that until season 6, he seems even more like a D-E-M. "This dog you've been watching for 6 years, OH! he can talk! but only three times. it was prophesied. at some point." I thought it should have been brought up in season 3, in Valinor, by one of the Valar, seems most fitting.

again, I know there really isn't an appropriate place to ask this, and it doesn't pertain to this episode, but here it is.

Don't worry about Huan! He is featured in several episodes and even gets to fight a Dragon in Episode 13.

I agree the prophecy should be a Season 2-3 thing (when Huan is introduced) IF the prophecy has its origin in Valinor. The ones who know about the prophecy (and are doing anything about it) seem to be...Morgoth and Sauron. So...perhaps it should be a Middle-earth prophecy? Don't know who would issue it. (The Maia who becomes Glaurung? That would make it a Season 5 thing, which is at least before Season 6....)

I know you didn't realize whether or not it was relevant to this particular episode, but it turns out, it is! We had to choose characters to accompany Maglor to the meeting with Fingolfin during the climax of this episode, and it was decided that Celegorm should definitely be there, so that Huan is as well. It gives an added feeling of menace to the Fëanorean side (oh, sure, I only brought so many soldiers with me, but one of them is a giant killer dog who can definitely rip an elf's throat out...should he be so inclined), but the real deciding factor was that it would put Huan and Thorondor on screen at the same time. They don't have much interaction here, but there can be eye contact of the 'oh hey, you're caught up in this, too' variety.

A giant killer dog who immediately goes over to Finrod to get petted.

This is definitely something I had not thought of before, because obviously both Morgoth and Sauron are aware of the prophecy. They both take explicit measures to counter it.


Here's my suggestion: separate the components of the prophecy. There is nothing necessitating their being delivered at the same time, or even by the same person.

If the "speak three times with words" comes from Oromë in S03, that seems perfectly sufficient.

In the case of not meeting death "until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world": there's an opportunity here. We could easily set up an antagonism between Huan and Draughluin in S05, and let DRAUGHLUIN delivery this prophecy. It would bring a ton more impact to their ultimate confrontation on the bridge of Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

Another possibility would be Huan himself knowing the prophecy about only being killed by the mightiest wolf, telling it to Celegorm, and then Celegorm boasting of it somewhere that the bad guys hear it.

 

[Rhiannon]

I like the idea of separating it, and of someone in Valinor speaking the first part (Orome, Mandos, Yavanna?) But I'm not sure about Draugluin delivering the other part. I don't think he is qualified, personally, and feel like, with the above suggestion of Luthien, is too close to the prophecy to speak it.

Perhaps Melian (in season 6, I'm stretching a lot here), when she hears a report back from Beleg, who tracks her down after she escapes Hirilorn, and tells her she's escaped Nargothrond with a hound. She would deliver the line about not being slain but by the greatest wolf ever. This, of course, leaves Morgoth and Sauron out of the loop. So, it won't work.

We could drop it into one of the scenes Thuringwethil spies on, or at the Mereth Aderthad, where Sauron and Thuringwethil are spying? I really don't see another elegant way to do it outside of that.

The problem with it being at the Mereth Aderthad is that Huan and Celegorm don't go to the Mereth Aderthad.

 

[Octoburn]

Another possibility would be Huan himself knowing the prophecy about only being killed by the mightiest wolf, telling it to Celegorm, and then Celegorm boasting of it somewhere that the bad guys hear it.

I like the idea, but he's only prophesied to speak three times, all to Beren or Luthien. Which is why I kind of like the idea of Luthien intuiting it during the Mereth Aderthad when she pets her or something.

 

[Octoburn]

The problem with it being at the Mereth Aderthad is that Huan and Celegorm don't go to the Mereth Aderthad.

Aaah. I forgot that. And he's not there with good reason. Could Huan go with someone else?

 

[Rhiannon]

I like the idea, but he's only prophesied to speak three times, all to Beren or Luthien. Which is why I kind of like the idea of Luthien intuiting it during the Mereth Aderthad when she pets her or something.

Celegorm can understand Huan when he speaks in dog language.

 

[Rhiannon]

Aaah. I forgot that. And he's not there with good reason. Could Huan go with someone else?

The Feanorians who go to the Mereth Aderthad are Maedhros and Maglor and some of their soldiers. I don't think there's any reason that Celegorm would send Huan with them and not go himself.

 

[MithLuin]

Huan and Celegorm can communicate all they like, because Celegorm understands Huan. Huan only needs to speak 'with words' to Beren and Lúthien, because they don't speak dog. And yes, we're treating Huan as Celegorm's '+1' - whenever Celegorm is around, Huan is too, and if Celegorm *isn't* there, Huan isn't either. With some minor exceptions, but in general.

So. The prophecy about Huan speaking 3 times with words can be a Valinor thing, and can come from Oromë (or someone else if we prefer...but likely Oromë).

As for the 'facing the greatest wolf' prophesy, it can come from a variety of sources, but it's important that Huan, Sauron, and Morgoth are all familiar with it, preferably before Season 6 begins.

Now, Huan himself is foresighted. He tells Beren and Lúthien that he'll have to face whatever they see at the gate of Angband (which turns out to be Carcaroth). So, I am perfectly comfortable with him being the origin of this prophecy. We had Celegorm and Huan take down a bunch of wolves for their part in the Battle under Starlight, so Huan's reputation as a wolf-killer starts there. Not sure where we go next...

I think plenty of characters are 'qualified' to issue prophecies. Lots of foresight going around for Tolkien's characters, and it's often right. We had Elenwë say something prophetic before setting out on the Helcaraxë (though it was more 'hopeful' than prophetic, she did still foresee the importance of her family - ie, her daughter Idril - reaching Middle-earth). Turgon has had plenty of visions and dreams - 3 this season and 1 last season. You don't even have to be an elf. Glorfindel was the source of the 'no mortal man' killing the Witch-king prophecy, it's true, but there are plenty of human examples. Both Aragorn's mother and grandmother make prophetic statements, and Aragorn tells Eomer they will meet again though all the forces of Mordor divide them. 'Arvedui' is going to choose the name 'Last King' for a reason...and that reason is Malbeth the Seer. Huor is going to tell Turgon that 'from you and from me a new star shall arise.' A prophecy that their kids will get married and their grandson will turn into a star is pretty exact, not just a hopeful look to the future!

I think we just need a reason for someone to utter a prophetic statement about Huan, and for there to be a reasonable way the villains find out about it. It needn't be Melian or Lúthien - you don't need Maia-blood to be prophetic. And just because the villains are villainous doesn't mean they can't issue prophecies....but both Morgoth and Sauron seem to be reacting to the prophecy, rather than the source of it themselves. So, either a villain in Angband (not them) says it...or one of the elves does, and the villain-spies overhear this news eventually.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Perhaps Thuringwethil overhears it during her little montage of observing the Noldor in Episode 4?

 

[Rhiannon]

Huan and Celegorm can communicate all they like, because Celegorm understands Huan. Huan only needs to speak 'with words' to Beren and Lúthien, because they don't speak dog. And yes, we're treating Huan as Celegorm's '+1' - whenever Celegorm is around, Huan is too, and if Celegorm *isn't* there, Huan isn't either. With some minor exceptions, but in general.

So. The prophecy about Huan speaking 3 times with words can be a Valinor thing, and can come from Oromë (or someone else if we prefer...but likely Oromë).

As for the 'facing the greatest wolf' prophesy, it can come from a variety of sources, but it's important that Huan, Sauron, and Morgoth are all familiar with it, preferably before Season 6 begins.

Now, Huan himself is foresighted. He tells Beren and Lúthien that he'll have to face whatever they see at the gate of Angband (which turns out to be Carcaroth). So, I am perfectly comfortable with him being the origin of this prophecy. We had Celegorm and Huan take down a bunch of wolves for their part in the Battle under Starlight, so Huan's reputation as a wolf-killer starts there. Not sure where we go next...

I think plenty of characters are 'qualified' to issue prophecies. Lots of foresight going around for Tolkien's characters, and it's often right. We had Elenwë say something prophetic before setting out on the Helcaraxë (though it was more 'hopeful' than prophetic, she did still foresee the importance of her family - ie, her daughter Idril - reaching Middle-earth). Turgon has had plenty of visions and dreams - 3 this season and 1 last season. You don't even have to be an elf. Glorfindel was the source of the 'no mortal man' killing the Witch-king prophecy, it's true, but there are plenty of human examples. Both Aragorn's mother and grandmother make prophetic statements, and Aragorn tells Eomer they will meet again though all the forces of Mordor divide them. 'Arvedui' is going to choose the name 'Last King' for a reason...and that reason is Malbeth the Seer. Huor is going to tell Turgon that 'from you and from me a new star shall arise.' A prophecy that their kids will get married and their grandson will turn into a star is pretty exact, not just a hopeful look to the future!

I think we just need a reason for someone to utter a prophetic statement about Huan, and for there to be a reasonable way the villains find out about it. It needn't be Melian or Lúthien - you don't need Maia-blood to be prophetic. And just because the villains are villainous doesn't mean they can't issue prophecies....but both Morgoth and Sauron seem to be reacting to the prophecy, rather than the source of it themselves. So, either a villain in Angband (not them) says it...or one of the elves does, and the villain-spies overhear this news eventually.

The defeat of the wolves in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath might be a good time for the prophecy to be revealed to the villains. Perhaps Celegorm could shout something to the effect of "That's right, you better run! This here is my dog Huan, the goodest boy ever! And he can''t be killed except by the greatest wolf that will ever walk the world!"

 

[MithLuin]

I thought this forum might be a good place for this thread, now that it is dealing with a Season 2-6 topic. It will make the conversation easier to find later, I hope. Carry on!

 

[Octoburn]

The defeat of the wolves in the Dagor-nuin-Giliath might be a good time for the prophecy to be revealed to the villains. Perhaps Celegorm could shout something to the effect of "That's right, you better run! This here is my dog Huan, the goodest boy ever! And he can''t be killed except by the greatest wolf that will ever walk the world!"

Or, a wolf he fights says "I've heard of you. Hound of Valinor. Can only be killed by the greatest wolf in Arda. We'll see about that!"

There are possibilities.

Huan and Celegorm can communicate all they like, because Celegorm understands Huan. Huan only needs to speak 'with words' to Beren and Lúthien, because they don't speak dog. And yes, we're treating Huan as Celegorm's '+1' - whenever Celegorm is around, Huan is too, and if Celegorm *isn't* there, Huan isn't either. With some minor exceptions, but in general.

So. The prophecy about Huan speaking 3 times with words can be a Valinor thing, and can come from Oromë (or someone else if we prefer...but likely Oromë).

As for the 'facing the greatest wolf' prophesy, it can come from a variety of sources, but it's important that Huan, Sauron, and Morgoth are all familiar with it, preferably before Season 6 begins.

Now, Huan himself is foresighted. He tells Beren and Lúthien that he'll have to face whatever they see at the gate of Angband (which turns out to be Carcaroth). So, I am perfectly comfortable with him being the origin of this prophecy. We had Celegorm and Huan take down a bunch of wolves for their part in the Battle under Starlight, so Huan's reputation as a wolf-killer starts there. Not sure where we go next...

I think plenty of characters are 'qualified' to issue prophecies. Lots of foresight going around for Tolkien's characters, and it's often right. We had Elenwë say something prophetic before setting out on the Helcaraxë (though it was more 'hopeful' than prophetic, she did still foresee the importance of her family - ie, her daughter Idril - reaching Middle-earth). Turgon has had plenty of visions and dreams - 3 this season and 1 last season. You don't even have to be an elf. Glorfindel was the source of the 'no mortal man' killing the Witch-king prophecy, it's true, but there are plenty of human examples. Both Aragorn's mother and grandmother make prophetic statements, and Aragorn tells Eomer they will meet again though all the forces of Mordor divide them. 'Arvedui' is going to choose the name 'Last King' for a reason...and that reason is Malbeth the Seer. Huor is going to tell Turgon that 'from you and from me a new star shall arise.' A prophecy that their kids will get married and their grandson will turn into a star is pretty exact, not just a hopeful look to the future!

I think we just need a reason for someone to utter a prophetic statement about Huan, and for there to be a reasonable way the villains find out about it. It needn't be Melian or Lúthien - you don't need Maia-blood to be prophetic. And just because the villains are villainous doesn't mean they can't issue prophecies....but both Morgoth and Sauron seem to be reacting to the prophecy, rather than the source of it themselves. So, either a villain in Angband (not them) says it...or one of the elves does, and the villain-spies overhear this news eventually.

I didn't necessarily mean that only Maia can make prophetic statements, just that I believe that the Huan thing is big, since he came from Valinor, and I think should have his prophecy come from somewhere big. I'm willing to concede that's just my opinion though.

That said, I am cool with it originating with himself.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Or, a wolf he fights says "I've heard of you. Hound of Valinor. Can only be killed by the greatest wolf in Arda. We'll see about that!"

There are possibilities.



I didn't necessarily mean that only Maia can make prophetic statements, just that I believe that the Huan thing is big, since he came from Valinor, and I think should have his prophecy come from somewhere big. I'm willing to concede that's just my opinion though.

That said, I am cool with it originating with himself.

Funnily enough, Draugluin says something similar in a fanfic where Beren and Luthien is expanded into a 22-chapter story. See Chapter 12.

Of Beren and Lúthien: The Complete Tale of “The Lay of Leithian” by LuthienHuan

<p>A how-it-might-have-been tale based on the Chapter "Of Beren and Lúthien" in The Silmarillion and other writings which fans will recognize.</p>

www.silmarillionwritersguild.org

 

[Haakon]

I suggest Amrod (EDIT: No, I mean Amras, of course!) I want him to be about Doom as much as possible, mostly focused on the Doom of Mandos of course, but prophesying his brother’s dog’s death should be his thing. He could make the prophecy after the Battle Under the Stars, or later. Thuringwethil could overhear him saying it, or it could spread and she or Sauron could overhear someone else, anyone.

 

[Rhiannon]

I suggest Amrod. I want him to be about Doom as much as possible, mostly focused on the Doom of Mandos of course, but prophesying his brother’s dog’s death should be his thing. He could make the prophecy after the Battle Under the Stars, or after. Thuringwethil could overhear him saying it, or it could spread and she or Sauron could overhear someone else, anyone.

Do you mean Amrod or Amras? Amrod is the one who is burnt with the ships.