Ring poem

[Willomir]

In this thread I am going to question whether the One Ring poem was deliberately started at the wrong line?

In episode 151 & 152 of 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the One Ring poem is brilliantly workshopped by professor Corey Olsen. The Elvish writing on the Ring says the following Black Speech words:

Ash nazg durbatulûk,
ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

These words are spoken out loud by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond in Rivendel, which caused a shadow to pass over the high sun and some Elves to stop their ears. Later Gandalf gives the translation as:

One ring to rule them all,
one ring to find them,
One ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.

When professor Corey Olsen looked at just the verbs:

1. Rule
2. Find
3. Bring
4. Bind

I realised the poem starts with the conclusion or the summary/title like a scientific publication. If the poem was read as a recipe, it actually wouldn't make sense. What then would make more sense is putting the ruling part all the way at the end:

1. Find
2. Bring
3. Bind
4. Rule

The poem is circularly written in Elvish script on the One Ring, which is unadorned with a gem, jewel, or anything else, and is hence an uniform band. Also I think Elvish script does not have a clear indication where a sentence starts unlike languages in Latin script, that start with capitalization or uppercase letters. Therefore could it be possible that the correct poem is actually:

Ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk,
Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
ash nazg durbatulûk.

And this would translate into something like:

One ring to find them,
one ring to bring them all,
and in darkness bind them
into one ring to rule them all.

As you can see I had to add the word 'into' at the start of the last line for the poem to make sense in English (I don't know if this breaks the meter of the English poem, I'm not a poet, sorry if it did...), however, this may not be needed at all in Black Speech and the 'into' part could already be incorporated into the Black Speech 'krimpatul' verb. If this is the case, could Gandalf have started the poem with the conclusion deliberately, so he wouldn't activate some spell or something else alike? A shadow was starting to creep over the sun after all...

 

[Odola]

In this thread I am going to question whether the One Ring poem was deliberately started at the wrong line?

In episode 151 & 152 of 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the One Ring poem is brilliantly workshopped by professor Corey Olsen. The Elvish writing on the Ring says the following Black Speech words:

These words are spoken out loud by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond in Rivendel, which caused a shadow to pass over the high sun and some Elves to stop their ears. Later Gandalf gives the translation as:

When professor Corey Olsen looked at just the verbs:

1. Rule
2. Find
3. Bring
4. Bind

I realised the poem starts with the conclusion or the summary/title like a scientific publication. If the poem was read as a recipe, it actually wouldn't make sense. What then would make more sense is putting the ruling part all the way at the end:

1. Find
2. Bring
3. Bind
4. Rule

The poem is circularly written in Elvish script on the One Ring, which is unadorned with a gem, jewel, or anything else, and is hence an uniform band. Also I think Elvish script does not have a clear indication where a sentence starts unlike languages in Latin script, that start with capitalization or uppercase letters. Therefore could it be possible that the correct poem is actually:

And this would translate into something like:

As you can see I had to add the word 'into' at the start of the last line for the poem to make sense in English (I don't know if this breaks the meter of the English poem, I'm not a poet, sorry if it did...), however, this may not be needed at all in Black Speech and the 'into' part could already be incorporated into the Black Speech 'krimpatul' verb. If this is the case, could Gandalf have started the poem with the conclusion deliberately, so he wouldn't activate some spell or something else alike? A shadow was starting to creep over the sun after all...

sounds plausible

 

[Bruce N H]

Of course, if the poem is inscribed around the ring, the loop keeps going endlessly:
The finding leads to the bringing leads to the binding leads to the ruling leads to the finding leads to the bringing leads to the ...
And on and on and on.

Of course in the English it makes more sense for the poem to have the rhymes of "find them" and "bind them" in lines 2 and 4. The "them all" and "them all" in lines 1 and 3 is repetition but not rhyme. But in the black speech we get solid rhymes in both 1 and 3 (durbatulûk thrakatulûk) and in 2 and 4 (gimbatul krimpatul), so in the black speech version you could more easily swap around the lines.

Bruce

 

[Willomir]

Of course, if the poem is inscribed around the ring, the loop keeps going endlessly:
The finding leads to the bringing leads to the binding leads to the ruling leads to the finding leads to the bringing leads to the ...
And on and on and on.

Of course in the English it makes more sense for the poem to have the rhymes of "find them" and "bind them" in lines 2 and 4. The "them all" and "them all" in lines 1 and 3 is repetition but not rhyme. But in the black speech we get solid rhymes in both 1 and 3 (durbatulûk thrakatulûk) and in 2 and 4 (gimbatul krimpatul), so in the black speech version you could more easily swap around the lines.

Bruce

Hmm, so does that mean the One Ring poem should be chanted in a loop like the 'Row, row, row your boat' singalong?

A possible SATB arrangement for the One Ring poem in Black Speech could then be as follows:

Soprano​	Alto​	Tenor​	Bass​
Ash nazg durbatulûk
Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Ash nazg durbatulûk	Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul
Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk	Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk
Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk	Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Etc...	Etc...	Etc...	Etc...

But why would the ruling lead to the finding, when the finding has already been found?
This is the part of the initial One Ring poem that doesn't make sense to me, unless the first line is the title or the summary... 😕

 

[Bruce N H]

I think we have to go back to the history of the Ring and the Rings. At the time that Sauron forged the One Ring, at least some of those had been already sent out (e.g. we have the dwarven tradition that Celebrimbdor gave a ring directly to Durin's heir (I forget who was king of Moria at the time)). So at the point of it's forging, Sauron had the One Ring to Rule, but he still had to go out and gather up (find and bring) the other existing rings that were out there in the world - hence the attack on Eregion and the need to hide the elven rings. Then once he had the rings, Sauron could give those out as a way to bind others to him (successfully in the case of men, less successfully in the case of dwarves, of course he never got a chance with the elves). But even then if those rings went out, he could always find them and draw the bearers back to himself in the darkness. (BTW, this is even more so in the original writing - remember from our HOME reading that in JRRT's original drafts there were many more rings that were spread around by the Enemy as ways to ensnare people who came upon them.) So we get this cyclical pattern.

Bruce

 

[Flammifer]

A few other thoughts on the order of the Ring verse.

"Rule them all", might come first as it is the main purpose or principle spell of the Ruling Ring. The others are simply enablers.

"Bind them" is interesting. The obvious meaning is to bind the other rings (and their wearers) to the rule of the One Ring and Sauron. However, in the case of the Nine (and perhaps the Seven), there is another possible meaning of 'bind'. That would be to bind the wearers (or their fea) to Middle-earth, making it impossible for them to die, and depart to wherever the souls of Men (and possibly Dwarves - though it didn't work for Dwarves) should go.

 

[Odola]

A few other thoughts on the order of the Ring verse.

"Rule them all", might come first as it is the main purpose or principle spell of the Ruling Ring. The others are simply enablers.

"Bind them" is interesting. The obvious meaning is to bind the other rings (and their wearers) to the rule of the One Ring and Sauron. However, in the case of the Nine (and perhaps the Seven), there is another possible meaning of 'bind'. That would be to bind the wearers (or their fea) to Middle-earth, making it impossible for them to die, and depart to wherever the souls of Men (and possibly Dwarves - though it didn't work for Dwarves) should go.

Dwarves have a part on Mandos made and set apart for them by Aulë - they do not leave Ea: "Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle." Chapter 2, Of Aule and Yavanna, The Silmarillion

 

[Luke of X (Fmr. Twitter)]

I think one point we have for Gandalf et al giving the Ring Verse in proper order is that Celebrimbor, at least, and the other Elves wearing the numerous Rings, likely, heard the words as Sauron incanted them.

"Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed..."

There was a long wait between the forging on the One and Sauron coming to lay waste to Eregion and Eriador. Some of the Elves' knowledge on this matter has to come direct from Celebrimbor himself in that intervening period.

 

[Luke of X (Fmr. Twitter)]

I think one point we have for Gandalf et al giving the Ring Verse in proper order is that Celebrimbor, at least, and the other Elves wearing the numerous Rings, likely, heard the words as Sauron incanted them.

"Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed..."

There was a long wait between the forging on the One and Sauron coming to lay waste to Eregion and Eriador. Some of the Elves' knowledge on this matter has to come direct from Celebrimbor himself in that intervening period.

Though, reflecting more on this, there is a reading that supports the theory.

Incantations are usually chanted, and repeated, over and over until the "spell" reaches its culmination, yeah? So it's possible that what Celebrimbor and the rest heard wasn't the true start of the verse, but just where the ritual reached a strong enough point for it to be overheard by the Elves.

 

[MithLuin]

The poem is circularly written in Elvish script on the One Ring, which is unadorned with a gem, jewel, or anything else, and is hence an uniform band. Also I think Elvish script does not have a clear indication where a sentence starts unlike languages in Latin script, that start with capitalization or uppercase letters.

Here is the script as written in the book:



There are some indications of endings in this inscription:


The top left portion says "ash nazg durbatuluk" The top right portion says "ash nazg gimbatul"
The bottom left portion says "ash nazg thrakatuluk" The bottom right portion says "ag burzum ishi krimpatul"
Ash = one
Nazg = ring
The two wavy lines that look like this ~~ are the full stops. The dots are the partial stops.


So if you assume it wraps continuously to form a ring, it still breaks down to:
ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul. ash nazg thrakatuluk, ag burzum ishi krimpatul.
And here is how Tolkien wrote it when it was wrapped in a circular format, but still with clear beginning and end:



Now, rather than single dots to divide the phrases, it's double dots (which typically indicate a period in Tengwar). But there are still those double ~ at beginning and end....this time after krimpatul.

 

[Willomir]

Hello again! o./
I have caught up with the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast and discovered we are in the middle of Gimli's Poem now. Gimli's poem is iambic like all the previous poems in the book and I started wondering for the reason why most of Tolkien's poetry is iambic... Could it be because Tolkien has done a lot of marching in World War I and sang a lot of marching songs? Can the One Ring poem be sung in Dark Speech while marching? Or would there be issues with that?

WARNING: this marching song example YouTube video here below, depicting clips from the movie 'Full Metal Jacket', contains a lot of explicit language as expected for a Stanley Kubrick film...

(Note also how Gunnery Sergeant Hartman's ruthless drilling of Private Leonard "Gomer Pyle" Lawrence compares to the body-shaming of Barliman Butterbur, Fredegar "Fatty" Bolger, etc. in Lord of the Rings by the way...)

"Bind them" is interesting. The obvious meaning is to bind the other rings (and their wearers) to the rule of the One Ring and Sauron. However, in the case of the Nine (and perhaps the Seven), there is another possible meaning of 'bind'. That would be to bind the wearers (or their fea) to Middle-earth, making it impossible for them to die, and depart to wherever the souls of Men (and possibly Dwarves - though it didn't work for Dwarves) should go.

I always thought the "Bind them" referred to the rings and it never occurred to me it can refer to the souls of the ring-wearers. This is interesting indeed! Would Isildur's soul still be bound to Middle-earth? Until the ring has been plunged into the lava of Mount Doom of course...

View attachment 5438

The top left portion says "ash nazg durbatuluk" The top right portion says "ash nazg gimbatul"
The bottom left portion says "ash nazg thrakatuluk" The bottom right portion says "ag burzum ishi krimpatul"
Ash = one
Nazg = ring
The two wavy lines that look like this ~~ are the full stops. The dots are the partial stops.


So if you assume it wraps continuously to form a ring, it still breaks down to:
ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul. ash nazg thrakatuluk, ag burzum ishi krimpatul.
And here is how Tolkien wrote it when it was wrapped in a circular format, but still with clear beginning and end:

View attachment 5439

Now, rather than single dots to divide the phrases, it's double dots (which typically indicate a period in Tengwar). But there are still those double ~ at beginning and end....this time after krimpatul.

I have the Lord of the Rings 50th anniversary of its first publication edition book, and on page 50 (where Frodo examines the ring for Gandalf after the ring has been residing in the fire for a while) the Elvish text there is written without the decorative tilde's ( ~ ). Also every line ends with a colon ( : )... there are thus four colons, no distinction, nor periods ( . ) as written in your example. So... which is true? There is little consistency... 😕

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Willomir,

In regard to your last point. Please do not rely on the 50th anniversary edition of TLOTR for detailed analysis. Hammond and Scull made numerous edits to that edition, many of which were unwise, and probably "corrected" things which JRRT had done intentionally, and should not have been 'corrected'.

Among several ill-considered edits in that edition are:

As they prepare to leave Bucklebury, Merry says, "I have prepared practically everything. There are six ponies in a stable across the fields;" (Original edition). In the 50th edition, Hammond and Scull have 'corrected' to 'five ponies' instead of 'six' (thinking perhaps of the several times later (around Bombadil's) when there were five ponies (one for each Hobbit and a pack pony). But, of course, Freddy Bolger rode a pony to the entrance to the Old Forest and then back to Bucklebury, so, six ponies was correct!

When Boromir and Faramir ask Denethor about how to interpret their dream. Denethor opined that "Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." (Original edition). Hammond and Scull changed that to "where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt". I think JRRT used 'and' to indicate that Denethor didn't know much, and rumors of Imladris in Minas Tirith were shrouded in legend, so that the name and title of one person had become confused to become two people.

There are other such ill-considered edits in the 50th anniversary edition, which have unfortunately made their way into all subsequent editions, and all electronic text versions of TLOTR.

For that reason, you should not rely on the 50th anniversary edition for the correct rendition of the Elvish letters on the Ring, but look to earlier editions. (The earlier the better.)

On your penultimate point, I think that the 'binding' by the rings would apply while the bearers possessed the rings, but once Isildur lost the One, the binding might no longer apply. (The longevity of bearers of the One might indicate some sort of 'binding' by that ring, though the 'binding' was supposed to be applied by the One to the other Rings.) (Though why the One should have any power to extend the lifespan of mortals is curious, as that power would have been of no benefit to Sauron himself.)

 

[Odola]

(Though why the One should have any power to extend the lifespan of mortals is curious, as that power would have been of no benefit to Sauron himself.)

??? Robbing the mortals of their mortality not one of the main goals of a Necromancer? Robbing them of their only sure exits from his pemanent slavery? Not a main benefit? How???

 

[MithLuin]

...he never intended for anyone but himself to handle the One Ring. So the only "intended" effect on mortals would be something like "give it back".

 

[Willomir]

Hi Willomir,

In regard to your last point. Please do not rely on the 50th anniversary edition of TLOTR for detailed analysis. Hammond and Scull made numerous edits to that edition, many of which were unwise, and probably "corrected" things which JRRT had done intentionally, and should not have been 'corrected'.

Among several ill-considered edits in that edition are:

As they prepare to leave Bucklebury, Merry says, "I have prepared practically everything. There are six ponies in a stable across the fields;" (Original edition). In the 50th edition, Hammond and Scull have 'corrected' to 'five ponies' instead of 'six' (thinking perhaps of the several times later (around Bombadil's) when there were five ponies (one for each Hobbit and a pack pony). But, of course, Freddy Bolger rode a pony to the entrance to the Old Forest and then back to Bucklebury, so, six ponies was correct!

When Boromir and Faramir ask Denethor about how to interpret their dream. Denethor opined that "Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond and Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." (Original edition). Hammond and Scull changed that to "where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt". I think JRRT used 'and' to indicate that Denethor didn't know much, and rumors of Imladris in Minas Tirith were shrouded in legend, so that the name and title of one person had become confused to become two people.

There are other such ill-considered edits in the 50th anniversary edition, which have unfortunately made their way into all subsequent editions, and all electronic text versions of TLOTR.

For that reason, you should not rely on the 50th anniversary edition for the correct rendition of the Elvish letters on the Ring, but look to earlier editions. (The earlier the better.)

On your penultimate point, I think that the 'binding' by the rings would apply while the bearers possessed the rings, but once Isildur lost the One, the binding might no longer apply. (The longevity of bearers of the One might indicate some sort of 'binding' by that ring, though the 'binding' was supposed to be applied by the One to the other Rings.) (Though why the One should have any power to extend the lifespan of mortals is curious, as that power would have been of no benefit to Sauron himself.)

Hello @Flammifer ,
thank you for your elaborate reply.
Because Hammond & Scull got the number of ponies and a sentence of Denethor wrong, then that does not mean that every edit they made is naturally also wrong...
I have watched the LOTRO glowing One Ring loading icon many times in professor Corey Olsen's YouTube videos, which looks like this:

In this image there are also no decorative tildes and there seem to be only two periods instead of four colons.
Something else that is bugging me is: Would a person like Annatar/Sauron add decorative tildes at the time of the creation of the One Ring?

Unfortunately I do not have a library of different Lord of the Rings book editions. I am a fan, but also stingy enough to be content with just one version. However, I am now very curious what the evolution of the Elvish script on page 50 looks like from the very first edition all the way up to the last edition. Which book editions do you all have? And how many tildes/periods/colons does your Elvish script contain on page 50 (or the respective page where Frodo discovers the writing on the Ring with Gandalf in Bag End for the very first time)?

 

[Gar Teil]

Is it plausible that the dots are indicating weak vowels, and not punctuation?

 

[Flammifer]

??? Robbing the mortals of their mortality not one of the main goals of a Necromancer? Robbing them of their only sure exits from his pemanent slavery? Not a main benefit? How???

Odola, the One Ring was made by Sauron for Sauron. He is already immortal. He intends to keep this Ring for himself forever. So, he does not contemplate using it to rob mortals of their immortality. Therefore, the fact that it confers long life (and possible immortality - though presumably wraithified eventually) is a curious power for the One Ring to have.

 

[Flammifer]

Hello @Flammifer ,
thank you for your elaborate reply.
Because Hammond & Scull got the number of ponies and a sentence of Denethor wrong, then that does not mean that every edit they made is naturally also wrong...
I have watched the LOTRO glowing One Ring loading icon many times in professor Corey Olsen's YouTube videos, which looks like this:

In this image there are also no decorative tildes and there seem to be only two periods instead of four colons.
Something else that is bugging me is: Would a person like Annatar/Sauron add decorative tildes at the time of the creation of the One Ring?

Unfortunately I do not have a library of different Lord of the Rings book editions. I am a fan, but also stingy enough to be content with just one version. However, I am now very curious what the evolution of the Elvish script on page 50 looks like from the very first edition all the way up to the last edition. Which book editions do you all have? And how many tildes/periods/colons does your Elvish script contain on page 50 (or the respective page where Frodo discovers the writing on the Ring with Gandalf in Bag End for the very first time)?

Hi Willomir,

First edition (1954 & 1955), 12th impression, 1962, printed in Great Britain, has the exact same representation of the Elvish script as that posted by Mithluin above in this thread.

Unauthorized Ace Books Edition, 1965, printed in the USA, the same.

Second edition (1968), First one volume publication, 1968, Great Britain, the same.

Second edition, India paper one volume edition, 1969, Great Britain, the same (except the Elvish script is printed in red ink).

The second edition incorporated a few changes made by JRRT himself. The main purpose of this edition was to ensure a definitive copyright on the text in the USA, and avoid another Ace Books debacle. However, JRRT made a few changes and corrected some 'errors'.

Some errors by proof readers or print setters might have crept into earlier (and later) editions of TLOTR, but given how meticulous a proof-reader JRRT was, these are probably minimal in the first two editions. The main sets of revisions were: 1. In the second edition by JRRT himself. 2. In the 50th Anniversary Edition (2004) by Hammond and Scull. Unfortunately quite a few of Hammond and Scull revisions seem to have been ill-considered. Also unfortunately, many subsequent editions and most electronic texts have used the version from the 50th Anniversary Edition (but not exactly! Further changes have crept in!). Hammond and Scull made more revisions and 'corrections' for the 60th Anniversary Edition of 2014, but I have never delved into that one to see if they corrected some of the errors they made in the 50th.

Here are a few other revisions made in the 50th Anniversary. I leave it to you to figure out whether you think they were 'good' revisions or 'bad' ones:

In the "Riders of Rohan" chapter, Eomer says, "But scouts warned me of the orc-host coming down out of the East Wall three nights ago..." in the original editions. Changed in the 50th Anniversary to "four nights ago".

Earlier editions in the chapter "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony", had the sentence: "Harry the gatekeeper also went out just behind them." This whole sentence was deleted in the 50th Anniversary.

In Book 1, Chapter 9, Frodo's song, "There is an inn, a merry old inn", has a break between two of the stanzas closed up so it does not appear in the 50th Anniversary. Hammond and Scull have admitted that this was an error.

In the Baggins family tree in the Appendices, Bingo Baggins date of death was changed from 1360 to 1363, another error admitted by H&S.

There are others, (H&S are said to have made about 400 changes, and I have neither tracked down, nor analyzed most of them). The first two above might or might not be reasonable revisions (see what you think?). The last two were admitted to be errors by H&S.

An example of earlier editorial or typesetting, or reproduction errors in the text was discovered when the class discussed the runes on the West Door of Moria. Corey spent some time wondering about a dot over the D rune (for Durin) near the bottom of the illustration, until it was discovered that this did not appear in early editions. It seems to have appeared first in the Houghton edition of 1991, and has persisted in many editions ever since. There is a thread on this topic somewhere above in this forum.

 

[Odola]

Odola, the One Ring was made by Sauron for Sauron. He is already immortal. He intends to keep this Ring for himself forever. So, he does not contemplate using it to rob mortals of their immortality. Therefore, the fact that it confers long life (and possible immortality - though presumably wraithified eventually) is a curious power for the One Ring to have.

Well, Sauron is a Necromancer, if he poured his powers into the Ring then it having such effect on mortals fits Sauron's core being and desires.

 

[Flammifer]

DobrzeSauron is a Necromncer, if he poured his powers into the Ring then it having such effect on mortals fits Sauron"s core being and desires.

Hi Ordola,

I think it more likely that conferring long life or immortality on mortals is some sort of unintended consequence, or side effect, of the power of the One Ring. There is no reason for Sauron to have deliberately tried to put this power into the One. The raison d' etre of the One Ring is to "Find them, bring them, bind them, rule them". For the Nine, and perhaps the Seven, longevity or immortality might have been useful to entice potential users and to bind them. Useless attribute for the One however. So, I guess it is either an unintended consequence, or a necessary byproduct of the Ring's other attributes.