Ring poem

[Willomir]

In this thread I am going to question whether the One Ring poem was deliberately started at the wrong line?

In episode 151 & 152 of 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the One Ring poem is brilliantly workshopped by professor Corey Olsen. The Elvish writing on the Ring says the following Black Speech words:

Ash nazg durbatulûk,
ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

These words are spoken out loud by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond in Rivendel, which caused a shadow to pass over the high sun and some Elves to stop their ears. Later Gandalf gives the translation as:

One ring to rule them all,
one ring to find them,
One ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.

When professor Corey Olsen looked at just the verbs:

1. Rule
2. Find
3. Bring
4. Bind

I realised the poem starts with the conclusion or the summary/title like a scientific publication. If the poem was read as a recipe, it actually wouldn't make sense. What then would make more sense is putting the ruling part all the way at the end:

1. Find
2. Bring
3. Bind
4. Rule

The poem is circularly written in Elvish script on the One Ring, which is unadorned with a gem, jewel, or anything else, and is hence an uniform band. Also I think Elvish script does not have a clear indication where a sentence starts unlike languages in Latin script, that start with capitalization or uppercase letters. Therefore could it be possible that the correct poem is actually:

Ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk,
Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
ash nazg durbatulûk.

And this would translate into something like:

One ring to find them,
one ring to bring them all,
and in darkness bind them
into one ring to rule them all.

As you can see I had to add the word 'into' at the start of the last line for the poem to make sense in English (I don't know if this breaks the meter of the English poem, I'm not a poet, sorry if it did...), however, this may not be needed at all in Black Speech and the 'into' part could already be incorporated into the Black Speech 'krimpatul' verb. If this is the case, could Gandalf have started the poem with the conclusion deliberately, so he wouldn't activate some spell or something else alike? A shadow was starting to creep over the sun after all...

 

[Odola]

In this thread I am going to question whether the One Ring poem was deliberately started at the wrong line?

In episode 151 & 152 of 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the One Ring poem is brilliantly workshopped by professor Corey Olsen. The Elvish writing on the Ring says the following Black Speech words:

These words are spoken out loud by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond in Rivendel, which caused a shadow to pass over the high sun and some Elves to stop their ears. Later Gandalf gives the translation as:

When professor Corey Olsen looked at just the verbs:

1. Rule
2. Find
3. Bring
4. Bind

I realised the poem starts with the conclusion or the summary/title like a scientific publication. If the poem was read as a recipe, it actually wouldn't make sense. What then would make more sense is putting the ruling part all the way at the end:

1. Find
2. Bring
3. Bind
4. Rule

The poem is circularly written in Elvish script on the One Ring, which is unadorned with a gem, jewel, or anything else, and is hence an uniform band. Also I think Elvish script does not have a clear indication where a sentence starts unlike languages in Latin script, that start with capitalization or uppercase letters. Therefore could it be possible that the correct poem is actually:

And this would translate into something like:

As you can see I had to add the word 'into' at the start of the last line for the poem to make sense in English (I don't know if this breaks the meter of the English poem, I'm not a poet, sorry if it did...), however, this may not be needed at all in Black Speech and the 'into' part could already be incorporated into the Black Speech 'krimpatul' verb. If this is the case, could Gandalf have started the poem with the conclusion deliberately, so he wouldn't activate some spell or something else alike? A shadow was starting to creep over the sun after all...

sounds plausible

 

[Bruce N H]

Of course, if the poem is inscribed around the ring, the loop keeps going endlessly:
The finding leads to the bringing leads to the binding leads to the ruling leads to the finding leads to the bringing leads to the ...
And on and on and on.

Of course in the English it makes more sense for the poem to have the rhymes of "find them" and "bind them" in lines 2 and 4. The "them all" and "them all" in lines 1 and 3 is repetition but not rhyme. But in the black speech we get solid rhymes in both 1 and 3 (durbatulûk thrakatulûk) and in 2 and 4 (gimbatul krimpatul), so in the black speech version you could more easily swap around the lines.

Bruce

 

[Willomir]

Of course, if the poem is inscribed around the ring, the loop keeps going endlessly:
The finding leads to the bringing leads to the binding leads to the ruling leads to the finding leads to the bringing leads to the ...
And on and on and on.

Of course in the English it makes more sense for the poem to have the rhymes of "find them" and "bind them" in lines 2 and 4. The "them all" and "them all" in lines 1 and 3 is repetition but not rhyme. But in the black speech we get solid rhymes in both 1 and 3 (durbatulûk thrakatulûk) and in 2 and 4 (gimbatul krimpatul), so in the black speech version you could more easily swap around the lines.

Bruce

Hmm, so does that mean the One Ring poem should be chanted in a loop like the 'Row, row, row your boat' singalong?

A possible SATB arrangement for the One Ring poem in Black Speech could then be as follows:

Soprano​	Alto​	Tenor​	Bass​
Ash nazg durbatulûk
Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Ash nazg durbatulûk	Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul
Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk	Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk
Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk	Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Agh burzum-ishi krimpatul	Ash nazg thrakatulûk	Ash nazg gimbatul	Ash nazg durbatulûk
Etc...	Etc...	Etc...	Etc...

But why would the ruling lead to the finding, when the finding has already been found?
This is the part of the initial One Ring poem that doesn't make sense to me, unless the first line is the title or the summary... 😕

 

[Bruce N H]

I think we have to go back to the history of the Ring and the Rings. At the time that Sauron forged the One Ring, at least some of those had been already sent out (e.g. we have the dwarven tradition that Celebrimbdor gave a ring directly to Durin's heir (I forget who was king of Moria at the time)). So at the point of it's forging, Sauron had the One Ring to Rule, but he still had to go out and gather up (find and bring) the other existing rings that were out there in the world - hence the attack on Eregion and the need to hide the elven rings. Then once he had the rings, Sauron could give those out as a way to bind others to him (successfully in the case of men, less successfully in the case of dwarves, of course he never got a chance with the elves). But even then if those rings went out, he could always find them and draw the bearers back to himself in the darkness. (BTW, this is even more so in the original writing - remember from our HOME reading that in JRRT's original drafts there were many more rings that were spread around by the Enemy as ways to ensnare people who came upon them.) So we get this cyclical pattern.

Bruce

 

[Flammifer]

A few other thoughts on the order of the Ring verse.

"Rule them all", might come first as it is the main purpose or principle spell of the Ruling Ring. The others are simply enablers.

"Bind them" is interesting. The obvious meaning is to bind the other rings (and their wearers) to the rule of the One Ring and Sauron. However, in the case of the Nine (and perhaps the Seven), there is another possible meaning of 'bind'. That would be to bind the wearers (or their fea) to Middle-earth, making it impossible for them to die, and depart to wherever the souls of Men (and possibly Dwarves - though it didn't work for Dwarves) should go.

 

[Odola]

A few other thoughts on the order of the Ring verse.

"Rule them all", might come first as it is the main purpose or principle spell of the Ruling Ring. The others are simply enablers.

"Bind them" is interesting. The obvious meaning is to bind the other rings (and their wearers) to the rule of the One Ring and Sauron. However, in the case of the Nine (and perhaps the Seven), there is another possible meaning of 'bind'. That would be to bind the wearers (or their fea) to Middle-earth, making it impossible for them to die, and depart to wherever the souls of Men (and possibly Dwarves - though it didn't work for Dwarves) should go.

Dwarves have a part on Mandos made and set apart for them by Aulë - they do not leave Ea: "Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle." Chapter 2, Of Aule and Yavanna, The Silmarillion

 

[Luke of X (Fmr. Twitter)]

I think one point we have for Gandalf et al giving the Ring Verse in proper order is that Celebrimbor, at least, and the other Elves wearing the numerous Rings, likely, heard the words as Sauron incanted them.

"Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed..."

There was a long wait between the forging on the One and Sauron coming to lay waste to Eregion and Eriador. Some of the Elves' knowledge on this matter has to come direct from Celebrimbor himself in that intervening period.