Script Discussion S06E03

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Glad you were able to join us for the end of the Twitch stream, Odola! Sorry these things do not happen at a European friendly time :(. They often run that late, though.

Alltogether I do find that outline quite interesting and exciting - even if Beren comes out somehow lacking in stategic thought and generally irrational in his complete lack of planning - generally he appears as unfit to be a war leader, stateman and politician.
That is a fair complaint about Beren. He's not at his best in this episode, being nearly out of his mind for parts of it. I will point out, though, that he doesn't exactly become a war leader, statesman, or politician, so maybe it's okay if he's not cut out for that? He's a fighter and a lover, so brave and bold, but not necessarily a leader. He will coordinate the attack on the Dwarves someday, but that is the closest he will get to that role. And that fight is again a revenge ambush!
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, here are the links to all 3, if that helps:





I think it would be cool if Luthiens sporty friends would be Nielthi, Evranin and Nimloth...just to drop some names!

I like the description of Nan Dungortheb... Hoodoos! Also nice move to connect Beren to lost elves of Maedhros troop! Also like the idea of the Melian and Annael scene.The two spiders, shelob and her sister fighting... great! I am curious how the Luthien and Beren meet situation will turn out in a more detailed script!

Fun thing: at first i misread Luthien and her friends were playing tagball!:D
We were imagining Lúthien's friends as background characters, so we wouldn't likely name them in this scene. However, a game of tag-ball is a fine suggestion! We wanted the background scene to be something different we haven't seen Lúthien do before, and wanted to anticipate her 'come catch me if you can' game with Beren. So, some variety of elvish sport game is fine here :)

As for the hoodoos...obviously not exactly that, but just a reminder that rock structures can be an interesting part of this landscape, making for very confusing terrain to cross.

Here is a photo my brother took at Antelope Canyon (a slot canyon in Arizona), with the lighting and color played with to make it look otherworldly. Not suggesting we do exactly this, but the idea of using rock structures as part of the landscape should be interesting, and give us some neat opportunities, especially for the lighting and shadows!

1652541786719.png1652571583519.png

I recognize that the hoodoos at Bryce Canyon are the wrong environment for Nan Dungortheb. The hoodoos of Banff aren't too far off, though.

Here's some hoodoos at Banff in Alberta, Canada:

1652541448315.jpeg





We didn't really discuss the seasons during the session, but it is my intention that the episode move from winter towards spring. So, the massacre of the outlaws, the revenge against Gorgol, and the visit to the grave all happen in winter. Looking down onto Doriath, there may be the beginnings of early spring visible, giving the forest a light green or golden glow. And then in Nan Dungortheb, we lose track of time and seasons, finally emerging into Doriath in actual spring. Thoughts on that?
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
That is a fair complaint about Beren. He's not at his best in this episode, being nearly out of his mind for parts of it. I will point out, though, that he doesn't exactly become a war leader, statesman, or politician, so maybe it's okay if he's not cut out for that? He's a fighter and a lover, so brave and bold, but not necessarily a leader. He will coordinate the attack on the Dwarves someday, but that is the closest he will get to that role. And that fight is again a revenge ambush!
Yeah. I was thinking exactly about that dwarf war plot. He has to be a war leader to accomphlish that and I have always understood that he was choosen as a the war leader there because he was a de facto leader of the (or "a"?) community in Ossiriand. And Beren was Barahir's heir so he had to have some tranining in his yought in those areas however little talent he might have naturally possessed in those directions. The way he addresses both Thingol and Finrod does suggest at least some basic diplomatic training and a high regard for his own line and heritage. There is completely nothing of it in him in this episode.

We didn't really discuss the seasons during the session, but it is my intention that the episode move from winter towards spring. So, the massacre of the outlaws, the revenge against Gorgol, and the visit to the grave all happen in winter. Looking down onto Doriath, there may be the beginnings of early spring visible, giving the forest a light green or golden glow. And then in Nan Dungortheb, we lose track of time and seasons, finally emerging into Doriath in actual spring. Thoughts on that?
Song of Beren and Lúthien

The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,


["Poison hemlock germinates from seed and is a biennial plant with a basal rosette of leaves during its first year. Once it overwinters, in late April/early May, it bolts into an erect branched plant producing prominent white flowers in an umbel generally in June and July. It sets and drops seeds soon after. This weed only reproduces by seed and its taproot dies as the main plant desiccates. Poison Hemlock: Facts About this Early Season Weed (psu.edu)"]

And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of stars was in her hair,
And in her raiment glimmering.

There Beren came from mountains cold,
And lost he wandered under leaves,
And where the Elven-river rolled
He walked alone and sorrowing.
He peered between the hemlock-leaves
And saw in wonder flowers of gold
Upon her mantle and her sleeves,
And her hair like shadow following.

Enchantment healed his weary feet
That over hills were doomed to roam;
And forth he hastened, strong and fleet,
And grasped at moonbeams glistening.
Through woven woods in Elvenhome
She lightly fled on dancing feet,
And left him lonely still to roam
In the silent forest listening.

He heard there oft the flying sound
Of feet as light as linden-leaves,
Or music welling underground,
In hidden hollows quavering.
Now withered lay the hemlock-sheaves,
And one by one with sighing sound
Whispering fell the beechen leaves [autumn]
In the wintry woodland wavering.

He sought her ever, wandering far
Where leaves of years were thickly strewn,
By light of moon and ray of star
In frosty heavens shivering.
Her mantle glinted in the moon,
As on a hilltop high and far
She danced, and at her feet was strewn
A mist of silver quivering. [snow]

When winter passed, she came again,
And her song released the sudden spring,
Like rising lark, and falling rain,
And melting water bubbling.
He saw the elven-flowers spring
About her feet, and healed again
He longed by her to dance and sing
Upon the grass untroubling.

Again she fled, but swift he came.
Tinúviel! Tinúviel!
He called her by her elvish name,
And there she halted listening.
One moment stood she, and a spell
His voice laid on her: Beren came,
And doom fell on Tinúviel
That in his arms lay glistening.

As Beren looked into her eyes
Within the shadows of her hair,
The trembling starlight of the skies
He saw there mirrored shimmering.
Tinúviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maiden elven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.

Long was the way that fate them bore,
O'er stony mountains cold and grey,
Through halls of iron and darkling door,
And woods of nightshade morrowless.
The Sundering Seas between them lay,
And yet at last they met once more,
And long ago they passed away
In the forest singing sorrowless.


[this audio version actual helps me remember the seasons well: The Song of Beren and Lúthien - Clamavi De Profundis - YouTube]

So Beren sees her 1st time in summer, then fhe follows her through the autumn and winter and he catches up with her the next spring. For me at least this is an iconic part of the whole story.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I picture the dwarf attack a bit differently. I presume that Lúthien is aware of her father's murder, and so he seeks out the Green elves to recruit them for a one-time ambush against the dwarves. I don't see him as living in a community at all, but rather seeking them out for this time of need. And he becomes the leader of the group because he was the one who organized the ambush and recruited the Green-elves for it, not because he's already their military leader (I doubt they have one). So, yes, he does lead the ambush...but he never rules a people nor has any position of authority anywhere.

I am a bit confused how diplomacy ought to play a role in this episode. Beren is interacting with...Gorgol. Giant spiders. Dead people.

In the next episode, he will meet Thingol. So, we will show that he has 'people skills' in Episode 4. Not a lot of opportunity for those to be showcased in Episode 3....
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I picture the dwarf attack a bit differently. I presume that Lúthien is aware of her father's murder, and so he seeks out the Green elves to recruit them for a one-time ambush against the dwarves. I don't see him as living in a community at all, but rather seeking them out for this time of need. And he becomes the leader of the group because he was the one who organized the ambush and recruited the Green-elves for it, not because he's already their military leader (I doubt they have one). So, yes, he does lead the ambush...but he never rules a people nor has any position of authority anywhere.

O.k. I've always assumed that Beren does lead those elves around him and that he and Luthien have a "commune" of a kind around them. But maybe that is just me. Dior has to meet Nimloth somehow, so I do doubt they do recluse themselvew completely. If Luthien is bereft of any of her magical powers as a mortal and she never has had to do any real work (we do know she spins and weaves - but mostly for artistic expression) in her live by just singing the forest into providing for her and Beren does not hunt then they and their child would be doomed to starvation. Or does Luthien become a Diana-like huntress? That would be interesting - even if contraintuitive. And Luthien imho would imho be the last one to nudge Beren into a revenge war.

I am a bit confused how diplomacy ought to play a role in this episode. Beren is interacting with...Gorgol. Giant spiders. Dead people.

In the next episode, he will meet Thingol. So, we will show that he has 'people skills' in Episode 4. Not a lot of opportunity for those to be showcased in Episode 3....
Beren seems aware enough of his diplomatic connections and the general "diplomatic landscape" of Beleriand - and his own place within it - to seek out Finrod's help and to know where to find him - which is not in the direction of Angband when leaving from Doriath - so he cannot just happen conveniently to pass there by on his general way North.

[It could be of course that after Barahir's sudden death Beren does not really immediately notice his own change of position - still when he took his father's ring he actually should have noticed what that means for the geopolitic chessboard he is very much a part of. Still it may be the moment he stands before Thingol where he really aknowledges his change of position and his role in the general political landscape - he is no longer just a younker in training - he is an adult political figure now.]

So Beren clearly has had some training in this regard. It is not as if he were completely unconnected and had nowhere else to go but had to randomly choose Doriath where he has had all the reasons in the world to assume himself alltogether unwanted. He does have plenty of places, near and far - where he would be very wanted, welcomed, needed and userful - like Brethil, Himring, Nargothrond.

Or will Gil-Galad just happen to be there in Doriath at thet very time Beren sets out, recognise the Ring of Barahir and just take Beren along with him on his return journey to Nargothrond - if we want our Beren to be clueless and uneducated?

Here some inspiration for a spider fight:

Spider vs Spider Showdowns #1-5 | MONSTER BUG WARS - YouTube
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Keep in mind that in this episode, Beren is at a nadir. He has just lost his companions to violence, so he is grieving and alone. He avenges their deaths, but finds this empty. He must abandon his homeland to the enemy. He becomes spider chow, and is confronted by the trauma he thought to leave behind.

Something very significant is going to happen to him in Episode 4... Lúthien falling in love with him could certainly impact his self-confidence! In other words, I am comfortable with him displaying a more certain view of his place in the world in the next two episodes, as he will have the chance to heal from what he is dealing with in Episode 3.

We will discuss Beren's reason for choosing to set out for Nargothrond in Episode 5. In the book, Beren exits Doriath at the south west corner by Aelin-Uial, and decides to set off for Nargothrond because he can see the highlands around the river Narog in front of him. We will likely give him a clearer reason to head that way in our adaptation.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm not particularly worried that Beren's actions in this episode in any way preclude the ones he takes later on. As Marie suggests, he's suffering pretty bad right now. And of course, character growth is a thing.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that in this episode, Beren is at a nadir. He has just lost his companions to violence, so he is grieving and alone. He avenges their deaths, but finds this empty. He must abandon his homeland to the enemy. He becomes spider chow, and is confronted by the trauma he thought to leave behind.

Something very significant is going to happen to him in Episode 4... Lúthien falling in love with him could certainly impact his self-confidence! In other words, I am comfortable with him displaying a more certain view of his place in the world in the next two episodes, as he will have the chance to heal from what he is dealing with in Episode 3.

We will discuss Beren's reason for choosing to set out for Nargothrond in Episode 5. In the book, Beren exits Doriath at the south west corner by Aelin-Uial, and decides to set off for Nargothrond because he can see the highlands around the river Narog in front of him. We will likely give him a clearer reason to head that way in our adaptation.
O.K. That is an angle that can be played but it is better to be consciously aware of the fact that we are playing it in our story.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
I am watching the recording of this episode's session on Twitch. Does Nick's audio kick in at some point? I feel like i'm missing half the conversation :confused:

Edit: nevermind. I saw it came up in another thread...
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I am watching the recording of this episode's session on Twitch. Does Nick's audio kick in at some point? I feel like i'm missing half the conversation :confused:

Edit: nevermind. I saw it came up in another thread...
Maybe Nicholas Palazzo would be so kind to summarize his thoughts for us here, so we do not miss completely out on those?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Maybe Nicholas Palazzo would be so kind to summarize his thoughts for us here, so we do not miss completely out on those?
The conversation was about four hours long, so recounting my thoughts through that from memory probably won't happen any time soon (I'd likely have to rewatch the whole thing and take notes). I do apologize for the technical difficulties. If you have a specific question, I'd be happy to answer it if I can.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The conversation was about four hours long, so recounting my thoughts through that from memory probably won't happen any time soon (I'd likely have to rewatch the whole thing and take notes). I do apologize for the technical difficulties. If you have a specific question, I'd be happy to answer it if I can.
I myself would be interested most in the muted comment about "Beren as a one man army" being unsuitable to be even partially included in our storytelling - I think this is mainly for time saving - but as your unheard answer seemed to have been a longer one, I suspect you said more about it than a mere "there is no time for that"?
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I myself would be interested most in the muted comment about "Beren as a one man army" being unsuitable to be even partially included in out storytelling - I think this is mainly for time saving - but as your unheard answer seemed to have been a longer one, I suspect you said more about it than a mere "there is no time for that"?
Ah, that is an easier one, since I gave my thoughts on it during the conversation with Prof. Olsen on... March the 10th? I think? So my thoughts, along with Prof. Olsen's and Co. are already a matter of record.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that in this episode, Beren is at a nadir. He has just lost his companions to violence, so he is grieving and alone. He avenges their deaths, but finds this empty. He must abandon his homeland to the enemy.
Could it be that his survival guilt and shame prevent him to "return home" to Brethil or to face anybody he knows and respects and is known by? That Beren considers humself in a state of disgrace for having fialed to prevent the band's death and then having failed to die along with them?

And so that he exiles himself into Doriath because there is nobody there (yet) whom Beren would be due to give account of his failure and whose good opinion on himself he does value and does not dare to lose? That Beren would rather be disrespected by people who would have disrespected him anyway than to face loosing the respect of his elders, both human and elven? That he would rather vanish then face himself disgraced publicly in the eyes of all that really matter to him?
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I have read episodes 1-3 by now, i like them.

The new characters we introduced so far are
Deadwe
Baragund
Belegund
Edrahil
Eilinel
Finduilas
Gorlim
Zirak
Carcharoth

Am i right?
 
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