Script Discussion S06E03

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Alright, this is meant to start the discussion of the outline for Episode 3. For now, we're scheduled for May 13th @ 8ET.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Alright, this is meant to start the discussion of the outline for Episode 3. For now, we're scheduled for May 6th @ 8ET to avoid a much longer hiatus if Prof. Olsen does the main podcast back to back. If he does not, chances are that we'll move our session back a couple of weeks.
O.k. So how about Shelob in Ered Gorgoroth? We know she lives there at that very time that Beren passes through there. She is probablly still young. So maybe about the size of a calf. How about Beren being the to one to name her? I imagine him being annoyed by being pestered by an overactive adolescent but he would lets her live as she is not fully grown yet. But this encouter might wake her "wanderlust" so that she leaves Ered Gorgoroth - maybe where he has come from - in Dorthonion - there are still other fresh warmblooded things to eat? - maybe to met Sauron later there and to leave Beleriand with him when he leaves for Eriador? She is a "pet" of Sauron when living in Cirith Ungol after all.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
O.k. So how about Shelob in Ered Gorgoroth? We know she lives there at that very time that Beren passes through there. She is probablly still young. So maybe about the size of a calf. How about Beren being the to one to name her? I imagine him being annoyed by being pestered by an overactive adolescent but he would lets her live as she is not fully grown yet. But this encouter might wake her "wanderlust" so that she leaves Ered Gorgoroth - maybe where he has come from - in Dorthonion - there are still other fresh warmblooded things to eat? - maybe to met Sauron later there and to leave Beleriand with him when he leaves for Eriador? She is a "pet" of Sauron when living in Cirith Ungol after all.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well. It kind of depends on whether or not we can make them encountering each other without either one dying a satisfying story _after_ the story where he tracks down and kills Gorgol. Generally, we don't want to tell one story - with a beginning, middle, and end - then begin another story.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well. It kind of depends on whether or not we can make them encountering each other without either one dying a satisfying story _after_ the story where he tracks down and kills Gorgol. Generally, we don't want to tell one story - with a beginning, middle, and end - then begin another story.
Of course she cannot die. I think she might attempt to take him after he has just slain several other much bigger spiders and he laughts at her and calls her "Shelob" and sends her running, but her appetite for fresh meat is woken and she climbs up the Ered Gorgoroth thinking that maybe where he has come from there is more but less difficult ones to hunt for her? Would be just a cameo, but a nice one imho.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Finally, we will have room in our story to really tell our A-plot! Episodes 1 and 2 featured villain protagonists, so they had to share a lot of screentime with two other B-plots (which is not how we usually tell stories in Silm Film).

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Here are things that have to happen in Beren's storyline:
  • Last we saw of Beren, he was burying his companions at Tarn Aeluin.
  • He will need to track down Gorgol. There should be some focus on his rage/intent on revenge, as well as emphasis on how dangerous it is to track a war party of orcs in Dorthonion.
  • Death of Gorgol/recovery of the Ring of Barahir
  • Return to Tarn Aeluin
  • Farewell to his father's grave, and vocalization of his thoughts concerning the situation in Dorthonion and the mission of the band of outlaws
  • Travel to Ered Gorgoroth, and first sight of Doriath
  • Descent of the Ered Gorgoroth
  • Traverse Nan Dungortheb, with its webs, monsters, and poisoned water
  • Reach Doriath and step through the Girdle
Naturally, we need to build a story weaving through those points. We need Beren's grief, and we need each decision he makes in this episode to be clearly his own. He can be influenced by circumstances, but he is not forced to do what he does. Beren will be a passive player in later parts of his story, but not here.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I will admit that 'conversation at his father's grave' is very much reminding me of this scene from the second season of Supernatural:


Granted, the conversation here is working in reverse - the son is trying to abandon the mission for personal happiness, and lets his father's memory talk him into becoming a hero and saving people. But conversations at graves are definitely a thing that happens in media, so I think we'll be able to convey that Beren is talking to his father just this once in a meaningful way if we stage a scene like this after Beren recovers the ring.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
  • He will need to track down Gorgol. There should be some focus on his rage/intent on revenge, as well as emphasis on how dangerous it is to track a war party of orcs in Dorthonion.
  • Death of Gorgol/recovery of the Ring of Barahir.
If tracking Gorgol to Rivil's Well is not feasible for our story tracking him halfway there has the same problem. Each added mile contadicts the impression we want to create of Dothonion being not longer free for Beren to walk as he pleases - even in bright daylight.


  • Return to Tarn Aeluin
A big problem. In the original story Beren returns there 4 years later when he decides to leave Dorthonion and the place has long been abandoned and he can always check if somebody is curretly there or not before he enters. If he just has killed Gorgol somewhere random and the rest of the orcs escaped that is the exact place some of them would be headed to with some forces gathered on the way to ambush him. He would not be visiting that place anytime soon untill he has made completely sure all the orcs have left there - and that could take some months for all that we know.

  • Farewell to his father's grave, and vocalization of his thoughts concerning the situation in Dorthonion and the mission of the band of outlaws
As I stated abowe, I would not divide the grave sequence in two but put them together - if we do not have the 4 years in between imho there is no reason to double the grave scene. With those two events being days-weeks apart only this would imho just reduce the impact of the scene and imho confuse the viewer.

  • Travel to Ered Gorgoroth, and first sight of Doriath
  • Reach Doriath and step through the Girdle
To be able to explain without words the attraction of Doriath when Beren seen from afar it I have proposed the scene at Tarn Aeluin when Beren sees the magical reflection of Melian from the distant past when she hallowed the lake long ago while washng his hands and face from blood and dirt of the combat and burial. That way there would be an perceived connection etablished between Doriath and his now lost to him belowed homeland - to explain why Beren feels an attraction towards Doriath for no rational reason. This connection could be show by using the same music and lighting when he sees Melian's reflection in the lake - which fills him with some unexpected hope in the midlle of ruin - when he sees Doriath on the mountain peak from afar. Also the nightingales included in the reflection might explain why he guesses Luthien's name right - Tinúviel - when he catches her. He could even take a pebble from the lake to memorise this vision on his way and hold in his hand like a promise it when he crosses the Girdle - if needed.


Naturally, we need to build a story weaving through those points. We need Beren's grief, and we need each decision he makes in this episode to be clearly his own. He can be influenced by circumstances, but he is not forced to do what he does. Beren will be a passive player in later parts of his story, but not here.
Imho the only way to make him choose to enter Ered Gorgorth completely voluntarily if when he knows of a secret passage through there. But that would have needed been introduced before while his comrades were around to talk with him about it.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I will admit that 'conversation at his father's grave' is very much reminding me of this scene from the second season of Supernatural:


Granted, the conversation here is working in reverse - the son is trying to abandon the mission for personal happiness, and lets his father's memory talk him into becoming a hero and saving people. But conversations at graves are definitely a thing that happens in media, so I think we'll be able to convey that Beren is talking to his father just this once in a meaningful way if we stage a scene like this after Beren recovers the ring.
Supernatural pulls always give me feels!
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Odola, you will note that I did not mention Rivil's Well in my summary breakdown. The orc army is not currently at Tarn Aeluin when Beren discovers the camp slaughtered, so naturally he must travel to the place where the orcs are to exact his revenge. It may be nearby or far, but regardless, there is travel involved (presumably we will be showing some travel, though how much of these events are on or off screen can also be discussed).

Similarly, the conversation at his father's gravesite will occur after he exacts his revenge. I am very comfortable with showing that return trip to be difficult, and for Beren to have to avoid orcs or other evils in making that journey. 'Time passing' is not a problem in this part of the story - we can allow for time to have passed. The challenge is to convey the reasons for the actions taken by the main character in the absence of dialogue, so we need visual storytelling. As for why he goes back to the grave, you've already mentioned it - to bury his father's hand with the rest of him. We don't have to show that, naturally, but if Beren is holding the ring in the scene at the graveside, which has freshly turned dirt, I think we can make that clear.

I recognize that you would like to reduce all travel to a minimum, so that the orc strike force is 'just down the hill' from Tarn Aeluin and Beren does not have to make any effort to find their camp. Certainly, that is a compression that could be considered, but it isn't necessary to compress that much, so I did not compress on the checklist.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Odola, you will note that I did not mention Rivil's Well in my summary breakdown. The orc army is not currently at Tarn Aeluin when Beren discovers the camp slaughtered, so naturally he must travel to the place where the orcs are to exact his revenge. It may be nearby or far, but regardless, there is travel involved (presumably we will be showing some travel, though how much of these events are on or off screen can also be discussed).
At least it cannot be so far away that Beren can expect an ambush at the former camp side when he returns because some of the orcs can outrun him there as they already know the place. Or we need a staregic use of daylight hours to synchronise that.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I am fine with the conversation at the graveside happening in daylight, yes.


To give an idea of pacing...a silent scene can be fine, but it can't stretch too long. This scene leads to a conversation with another person at the gravesite. The whistle was a significant habit between the two characters, so waiting for a response in silence is poignant.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Another thing to consider is whether or not we need to revisit Nargothrond in this episode. We will NOT be seeing Nargothrond in Episode 4, and then will return there in Episode 5 when Beren asks Finrod for aid with his Quest. So, is everything set and in place for that story, or do we need to see some tension or political machinations from the Fëanoreans or...?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Another thing to consider is whether or not we need to revisit Nargothrond in this episode. We will NOT be seeing Nargothrond in Episode 4, and then will return there in Episode 5 when Beren asks Finrod for aid with his Quest. So, is everything set and in place for that story, or do we need to see some tension or political machinations from the Fëanoreans or...?
Maybe a message from Gil-Galad being received at a family breakfeast (as I am against elves being too "daily literate" and sending letters, so would prefer a messenger with a verbal message like the one Galadriel sent via Gandalf to the remaining member of the Fellowhip which Gandalf delivers after they meet him again in Fangorn.) The discussion then can shift to gossip about the Feanorians being Feanorians with the both females present complaining and Orodreth trying to downplay their concerns.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Another question - how much time do we have for Ered Gorgoroth/Nan Dungortheb - how many spiders and ancient monsters can we put in there?
What weapons does Beren have? What story do we want to tell, focus more on angst and despair or more on fighting?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Another question - how much time do we have for Ered Gorgoroth/Nan Dungortheb - how many spiders and ancient monsters can we put in there?
What weapons does Beren have? What story do we want to tell, focus more on angst and despair or more on fighting?
He has a sword (named Dagmor in The Lays of Beleriand) and I imagine a bow, likely knives for harvesting tools.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
He has a sword (named Dagmor in The Lays of Beleriand) and I imagine a bow, likely knives for harvesting tools.
"Darkness-slayer" / "Darkness-fighter" fitting name, of elvish origin? Does it glow blue? How long is it? Fitting for giant spiders? (But true, even Bilbo's Sting was fit for that after all). The rest mostly flint weapons? Somehow he starts to remind me of Oetzi now - maybe because of the mountaineering.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
"Darkness-slayer" / "Darkness-fighter" fitting name, of elvish origin? Does it glow blue? How long is it? Fitting for giant spiders? (But true, even Bilbo's Sting was fit for that after all). The rest mostly flint weapons? Somehow he starts to remind me of Oetzi now - maybe because of the mountaineering.
I would imagine using something stronger than flint. The House of Bëor does know how to forge steel, right?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I would imagine using something stronger than flint. The House of Bëor does know how to forge steel, right?

If we shall imagine how he can fight spiders & co we first must know what kind of weapons can he be expected to carry with him.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If we shall imagine how he can fight spiders & co we first must know what kind of weapons can he be expected to carry with him.
And the point I'm trying to make is that it seems that his knives are only made of flint, indicating that the Bëorians are woefully behind in what they can make.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
And the point I'm trying to make is that it seems that his knives are only made of flint, indicating that the Bëorians are woefully behind in what they can make.
There was some talk in previous season that the House of Haleth was more Copper Age and the rest of of men late Bronze-/early Iron-Age but living next to elves not sure how much of their weapons was elven/dwarven-made and how far they are able to make them when on their own completely with supply chains broken? Smelting and forging invove fire and smoke and are visible from afar and leave visible traces - hard to do when on the run.
 
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