Script Discussion S06E03

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Surely the Elves would have taught Men how to forge their own weapons and tools? I have a hard time believing that the Elves would just supply everything to the houses of Men as hand-me-downs and on the other hand I don't like the idea of Elves leaving Men completely helpless.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Surely the Elves would have taught Men how to forge their own weapons and tools? I have a hard time believing that the Elves would just supply everything to the houses of Men as hand-me-downs.
Maybe, but when you have superior craftsmen around who need to sleep much less and do it mainly for their own fun then why force it?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The House of Bëor spent multiple generations living in Nargothrond, and at least one full generation on their own in Ladros. While they likely don't have quite the skill in the craft as the Noldor, they can forge steel now, as well as having access to steel weapons of dwarf and Noldor make via trade. Beren's sword is definitely made of steel.

Glowing blue in the presence of orcs is a trait of swords forged in Gondolin (like Sting). Therefore, Beren's sword will NOT glow blue, and will not be specially suited for cutting through spider webs (think Sam's barrow blade).
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The House of Bëor spent multiple generations living in Nargothrond, and at least one full generation on their own in Ladros. While they likely don't have quite the skill in the craft as the Noldor, they can forge steel now, as well as having access to steel weapons of dwarf and Noldor make via trade. Beren's sword is definitely made of steel.

Glowing blue in the presence of orcs is a trait of swords forged in Gondolin (like Sting). Therefore, Beren's sword will NOT glow blue, and will not be specially suited for cutting through spider webs (think Sam's barrow blade).

Ok. So what kind of sword is Dagmor? What other equipment does Beren have? As the Outlaws were isolated and not able to smelt and forge during their time as outlaws, have they returned to flint knapping for arrow-heads and knives? Have they got some new supplies when contacted by Maedhros in EP1? What is Beren's situation right now in that department?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The outlaws of Dorthonion do not have contact with Maedhros in Episode 1.

They have not had significant opportunity for resupply since the Dagor Bragollach, but were not completely cut off until recently.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The outlaws of Dorthonion do not have contact with Maedhros in Episode 1.

They have not had significant opportunity for resupply since the Dagor Bragollach, but were not completely cut off until recently.
Still a little vague. Metal arrowheads e.g. can serve as currency and are a basic commodity but get lost a lot in use. How soon they run out after the contact is cut with other communities - hard to say for me. Still we would need a picture of Beren is expected to have still, how much ancient pre-metal techniques the older members of the outlaws still can be expected to have remembered and could have taught him - before we could assess his fighting style based on what he can have available in weapons and tools...
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Still a little vague. Metal arrowheads e.g. can serve as currency and are a basic commodity but get lost a lot in use. How soon they run out after the contact is cut with other communities - hard to say for me. Still we would need a picture of Beren is expected to have still, how much ancient pre-metal techniques the older members of the outlaws still can be expected to have remembered and could have taught him - before we could assess his fighting style based on what he can have available in weapons and tools...
So, we've had the outlaws raiding Orc encampments and settlements, so they are quite likely to be using Orc arrows/arrowheads in combat.

Fighting giant spiders without a spear seems ... nearly suicidal, so I would expect him to have one.

Sword... It would be kind of interesting for him to have something single-edged like a hanger, messer, or even a long saex. Not super long, well suited for someone moving through brush.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Sword... It would be kind of interesting for him to have something single-edged like a hanger, messer, or even a long saex. Not super long, well suited for someone moving through brush.
As a cutting tool, yes. As a regular sword, I'm not so sure considering that the Edain would be following the Elves in how they design blades and would be unlikely to carry a curved sword unless you're Egalmoth.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
It could get broken while he climbs down a cliff, somewhat like the short polearm carried by Killmonger in Black Panther.
True, but then is almost useless against spiders?

As a cutting tool, yes. As a regular sword, I'm not so sure considering that the Edain would be following the Elves in how they design blades and would be unlikely to carry a curved sword unless you're Egalmoth.
If it were an elvish gift it could work?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yeah, seems so to me too. But climbing down a cliff with one is also problematic.
That's fair, though long climbing poles like alpenstocks have been a thing for millenia. It wouldn't be that difficult to rig a sling for it.

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As a cutting tool, yes. As a regular sword, I'm not so sure considering that the Edain would be following the Elves in how they design blades and would be unlikely to carry a curved sword unless you're Egalmoth.
So firstly, none of the blades I mentioned are particularly curved, if at all.

Secondly, I feel no compulsion to adhere to the "straight swords=good curved swords=evil" thing. The evidence for it is circumstantial at best.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I believe we have a separate thread about swords, but we can certainly discuss the design for Dagmor in the props forum, if people are interested.

At this stage in the planning, Beren has whatever weapons we deem it both necessary and reasonable for him to have to tell the story that we need to tell. So, plan whatever fights with giant spiders that you like or can imagine, and then we'll work out something feasible with the props.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I believe we have a separate thread about swords, but we can certainly discuss the design for Dagmor in the props forum, if people are interested.

At this stage in the planning, Beren has whatever weapons we deem it both necessary and reasonable for him to have to tell the story that we need to tell. So, plan whatever fights with giant spiders that you like or can imagine, and then we'll work out something feasible with the props.
Quite so. This interruption brought to you by weapon enthusiasts everywhere. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the script outline. But first some housekeeping.

Alright, this is meant to start the discussion of the outline for Episode 3. For now, we're scheduled for May 13th @ 8ET.
You'll note that the initial post of this thread has been edited to reflect a change in the Script Discussion schedule based upon a shift in Prof. Olsen's schedule. The S06E03 discussion will now take place on the 13th.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I believe we have a separate thread about swords, but we can certainly discuss the design for Dagmor in the props forum, if people are interested.

At this stage in the planning, Beren has whatever weapons we deem it both necessary and reasonable for him to have to tell the story that we need to tell. So, plan whatever fights with giant spiders that you like or can imagine, and then we'll work out something feasible with the props.
O.k. but still the frst of my questions remains unansweref. How much time do we have for the sequence? Shall it be more just a horror-like interlude in a sweet romance story to keep it from getting too sweet, a necassary coming-of-age of the hero to prove himself to "earn" the romance that follows, a way to establish our hero before he becomes a "younker in distress"? What purpose shall the sequence serve in our story and what shall it be about and how much weight should it have?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
O.k. but still the frst of my questions remains unansweref. How much time do we have for the sequence? Shall it be more just a horror-like interlude in a sweet romance story to keep it from getting too sweet, a necassary coming-of-age of the hero to prove himself to "earn" the romance that follows, a way to establish our hero before he becomes a "younker in distress"? What purpose shall the sequence serve in our story and what shall it be about and how much weight should it have?
It all depends on where our focus lies. We cannot grant equal weight to the Revenge in Dorthonion story and the Beren in the Wilderness story. Either the former must introduce the latter, or the latter must be the denouement of the former.

The point of Beren's travel and suffering is to establish both his unique destiny, as well as to set a baseline of suffering from which he will be healed by Luthien. It may also by a type of the terror that accompanies the transition from youth to adulthood, but there is some Jungian stuff there. Beren flees the Shadow, and struggles to resolve the conflict between his Animus (the friend to all creatures who do not serve Morgoth) and his Persona (the braggadocious "hero" standing before Thingol).
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
It all depends on where our focus lies. We cannot grant equal weight to the Revenge in Dorthonion story and the Beren in the Wilderness story. Either the former must introduce the latter, or the latter must be the denouement of the former.
If so then I personally find the Ered Gorgoroth more interesting and unique than the revenge plot - which seems simple to me - orcs are seldom complex antagonists to have much doubt about and if they were, we have no much place for such an angle here imho (even if Rob Harding might disagree with my assessment here) and would make the the spider passage have more weight than the revenge one in the story.

The point of Beren's travel and suffering is to establish both his unique destiny, as well as to set a baseline of suffering from which he will be healed by Luthien. It may also by a type of the terror that accompanies the transition from youth to adulthood, but there is some Jungian stuff there. Beren flees the Shadow, and struggles to resolve the conflict between his Animus (the friend to all creatures who do not serve Morgoth) and his Persona (the braggadocious "hero" standing before Thingol).
This Animus/Persona conflict is difficult to show and also it does not get resolved here (as it clearly lives on) nor later in the story, as far I do see it?

We know Beren is aged and traumatized by the passage of Nan Dungortheb. But is not obvious why successfully fighting off spiders and co. would depress him so much. So it would be a challenge. Maybe beyond fighting spiders Beren also relives the past horrors of the Dagor Bragollach he stored away in his subconsciousness? Is what we want a choreography of skillfull monster combat or an episode of PTSD? What serves our story better?
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
At that time the Beorians have already lived and served under the Noldor in Dorthonion.They cannot forge elven-steel, because presumably only elves can ...
But they know how to forge steel now and have weapons made of steel.

I doubt Beren has the equipment to forge or repair weapons by himself, but he wpuld have beorian or even noldrian weapons, and if those break or get lost he is probably practically thinking enough to use looted orcblades instead.
 
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