Script Discussion - S07E01!

Suggestions from our discussion of the time in Gondolin:
https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-7-05-húrin-and-huor.5312/page-2#post-50332

MithLuin said:
Scenes from Gondolin

Here are some suggestions for scenes that could happen in Gondolin this season. We could choose something different, but I wanted to start collecting the suggestions now so that they will be available by the time we get to planning those episodes (likely episodes 1 and 2 of the season, but we'll see how it works out).

Suggestions from the podcast session:
  • Huor praises Gondolin profusely, including speaking in wonder and awe about the images of the Trees that Turgon has constructed. Amidst this praise, Turgon is forced to recognize that, no, actually these images are but a pale imitation of the actual Two Trees in Valinor, which have been destroyed. In other words, Huor equating Gondolin with Valinor makes Turgon confront the reality that no matter how much he would like it to be...it is not.
  • Húrin being told the story of how Fingolfin confronted Morgoth and dueled to the death.
  • Handir refuses to eat the food when he first arrives, because he is freaked out by his encounter with Faerie.
  • Idril meeting Huor (who is a teenager at the time)

Additional suggestions:
  • One of the humans encounters Pengolodh in his library, and learn something of the history of Gondolin
  • Handir spends time outside the city walls, trying to feel less trapped. Huor finds him camping out, and they watch the stars together.
  • An elf confuses which human he is speaking to, as they all look the same (ie, have the same eyes).
  • When they are given new clothes to replace the outfits they arrived in (maybe worse the wear from battle and eagle transport), someone remarks that Huor (the youngest) appears to be an elf of 36 years, which he finds hilarious (a la Pippin and Beregond).
  • Húrin meets Maeglin and his guild who are advancing the craft of Gondolin
  • something something Glorfindel (our point of view character in this season's Frame story)
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Odola said:
[Glorfindel] could check on the progress of the weapon technology in the armory and have the new blue-shining weapons explained to him...
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MithLuin said:
I propose a scene where an elf guesses or assumes the age of one of their mortal guests, only to be wildly off (too high). It should come as a surprise when they learn how young Húrin, Handir, and Huor are.
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“But Turgon answered: ‘Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.’

Then Huor spoke and said: ‘Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and from me a new star shall arise. Farewell!’

And Maeglin, Turgon’s sister-son, who stood by, heard these words, and did not forget them; but he said nothing.”

I think this is an enlightening excerpt from Of The Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad. It indicates why Turgon led a host of ten thousand to the battle. He had come to understand that failure for the Union of Maedhros means Gondolin must soon fall. Therefore, the Gondolindrim cannot simply ignore Beleriand beyond the mountains. Pretending there is no problem is not going to stave off the Long Defeat. Besides, the purpose of the Union of Maedhros is to regain the initiative, reclaim lost territory, and reestablish the leaguer to preserve the position of the Free Peoples. The complacency of the Gondolindrim is what leads to their near complete destruction.

The reaction of Maeglin to the prophecy of Huor suggests that he already lusts for Idril. We may not want to spell it out, but attentive viewers should notice a certain covetousness.
 
Of the Edain said:
“But Turgon answered: ‘Not long now can Gondolin be hidden; and being discovered it must fall.’
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That is a problem, because, when Tuor comes in about a generation, Turgon has forgotten all about it and acts as if he assumed Gondolin not to be in any real danger for the time being - in spite of Ulmo's warning.
 
Kudos to everyone for sticking with a really long script discussion! We went through the episode from beginning to end (sans the Frame) and here is what we have come up with:

docs.google.com

SilmFilm S07E01 Outline

docs.google.com docs.google.com

Reference Map image:
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The Silmarillion Film Project
Season 7, Episode 1: Title TBD

Central conflict: The young Men enter into Faerie, but then they want to figure out how to leave….

A-Plot: Húrin, Huor, and Handir go to Gondolin
B-Plot: The Gondolindrim react to the presence of the humans.
C-Plot:.
POV character: Húrin
Frame: Convene the White Council in Eregion.

Episode Outline

Teaser: Frame

Act I : FA 460
Scene 1: Establishing shot - eagle’s eye view of tower of Tol-Sirion and shadow
Forest of Brethil - Beginning of scene: First we see the people of Bëor (known characters). We then see the boys that we are going to meet: Huor (18), Handir (19), and Húrin (21). Húrin and Handir are…acting like idiots. Rolling around in the mud wrestling, etc. Morwen (17) sees this behavior and rolls her eyes at their antics. Beldis giggles. Morwen walks off with Beldis (name-drop).
Introductions: Húrin and Huor are brothers; Handir is their double first cousin. Haldir is Handir’s father, Húrin and Huor’s uncle and foster father, and the Lord of Dor-lómin. Emeldir and the folk of Bëor are still in Brethil, and not aware of what has happened to the outlaw band in Dorthonion.
Part

Scene 2: Forest of Brethil - News that leads to departing for the skirmish and general political situation. Road-building orcs are a real problem, and Brethil is going to do something about it. Huor makes the case to be included and go along. Farewells.

Scene 3: North of Forest of Brethil - Party from Brethil attacks road-building orcs near the Tower of Tol Sirion, successfully wiping them out. They then quickly retreat south back towards Brethil. Ambient background eagles. Campfire afterwards - Húrin wants to know why they don’t accept help from the Fëanoreans in Nargothrond and wipe out the Tower entirely. Ambush!

Scene 4: Dimbar, near the Dry River - Warg-riders scatter the camp and pursue the Haladin. Húrin, Huor, and Handir flee into the woods at night. The Eagles arrive! They pick up everyone, and drop the orcs/wargs. The Eagles bring Húrin, Huor, and Handir over the mountains through the clouds to Gondolin. As they break through the clouds through a gap in the mountains, the sun is just beginning to rise over the city, which is still lit with lamps overnight.

Act II (continuous with Act I)
Scene 5: Gondolin - green space with fountain - Arrival in city of Gondolin and set down lightly by eagles. Huor: Wait…did we die?! Feature a prominent fountain (artesian well) of Gondolin [to hint at Ulmo's role in all of this]. Meet Ecthelion. Surprise all around. Ecthelion brings them before the king.

Scene 6: Gondolin - Tower of the King - Welcome dinner! First night in Gondolin. Handir is suspicious and does not want to eat the food - they won’t be allowed to leave! Turgon asks questions about the outside world, and Húrin answers. Post-Dagor Bragollach info (very Dor-lómin centric). Turgon knew nothing about Dor-lómin. He knew humans were coming…and now they’re here. Húrin talks about Hador (his grandfather) as a legendary character. [Turgon asks if Hador died in the Dagor Bragollach - Húrin admits that Hador died of old age and did not fight in the battle. - set up later conversation, but do not reveal Húrin's feelings about his grandfather's death.] Conversation about name “Galdor” - elves get into a conversation about etymology, naming practices, etc. Pengolodh - super psyched! Humans - super bored. [Galdor is Old English for “enchantment” and is part of Eriol’s names for Gondolin. The Sindarin meaning of -dor is “lord”, but the root to give “Gal-” could be √GAL=light, shine, bright [ie, KAL,ÑAL], or √GAL=grow, thrive [later OL], or √GALAD=tree] We draw a veil over the scene of elves being enthusiastic about linguistics and anthropology.

Scene 7: Gondolin - the apartment they share and surroundings - Huor explores the magnificent city. Wonders of engineering - water and sewage. Elves of Gondolin living their lives and meeting the humans. Very busy, but a coordinated flow, like a choreographed dance. People know where to be and how to get there - no pushing, shoving, shouting. No averting eye contact - friendly, greeting each other. Handing off of trade items in passing. Spontaneous and improvised. Elven ‘farms’ (nature preserves).

Scene 8: Gondolin - audience hall - The cousins decide they want to leave now, but are told “no”. Approaching audience, Huor is reluctant to leave. Audience with Turgon - they thank him for his hospitality and praise his city, and they want to leave now. Sorry, for everyone’s safety, no one is allowed to leave. That’s how we keep the place orc-free. Idril expresses sympathy - this news is difficult, but we hope you find your place here. Turgon sure that the eagles brought you here for some purpose - some doom is laid on you.
 
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Act III Timeskip: FA 462
Scene 9: Gondolin - Húrin and Handir, scruffy looking and dressed in elven clothes, come back into the city from alpaca-farming-duty. They return to the apartment where they’ve been staying. Huor has been hard at work studying - the Valar, Valinor, the Two Trees, writing. His work space is well established, and decorated with evidence of his work. Huor is pleased to see them, and he’s eager to share his studies with them. Handir is not interested, and leaves to wash up. Húrin shares with Huor that Handir is no better - the excursions outside the city were a help to lift his mood at first, but now he is always despondent and it is no longer helping.

Scene 10: Tower of the King - Festival time! Meal in the tower. We see the established dynamics of the human interaction with the elves after two years of living in Gondolin. Huor speaking with Pengolodh about his research studies. Handir is drinking heavily. Turgon greets Húrin and looks askance at Handir. Húrin makes an excuse for his cousin - tonight is his father’s birthday. Huor reacts with surprise - is it already that time?! Turgon comments that it’s also the city’s birthday (288 years - 2nd yeni - given the long construction time of this city, that is likely the arrival of the first residents from Nevrast in Season 4 Ep 12).
Suddenly, a flume of light! Everyone looks out the windows and observes this strange light to the northwest. Maeglin, who stays in his seat, realizes it’s coming from Tol Sirion. Hurin says “Thû”

Scene 11: Council Room - Turgon, who has received word from the eagles, explains to his confidants that the fall of the tower of Tol Sirion was not the villains, but was accomplished by an elf-maid. While that is a welcome bit of intelligence, the fall of the tower at Tol Sirion is mixed news. It was bad when Thû was in charge, sure, but the south of Beleriand is vulnerable with no elven tower to protect the pass. They decide that this very clear sign in the sky is not a sign, and that nothing need be done. Fingon will handle it. Idril, “Neither our enemies nor our friends sleep” (compassion, preparedness).

Scene 12: Steps outside - Idril leaves the Council and is caught by Húrin and Huor, who were waiting eagerly for news. Húrin asks what doom he can accomplish here in Gondolin? What great deeds are there for him to do in this elven city?

Act IV - FA 463
Scene 13: Pengolodh has trapped Handir and is peppering him with questions about human culture. Handir loses his temper and it breaks into a fight that spills out into a main hallway where Húrin and Huor arrive to break it up. Handir's frustration with being a subject of elven curiosity and anthropological research is understandable, but his reaction is certainly not acceptable. He lost his temper and lashed out at the elves.

Scene 14: Apartment in Gondolin - Húrin and Huor have a council with Handir. We *have* to do something. This cannot continue. Handir's behavior is a major concern, but the only way to deal with it is to fix the cause. They all agree that they have to get out of here. Huor is the most reluctant, but he agrees that growing old and dying in Gondolin without ever seeing another mortal again is not a life he wants to live. They contemplate sneaking out/making an escape attempt, but realize that if they are caught, they will be jailed [even worse]. The one with the best chance to sway Turgon is Húrin, so he is tasked with convincing the king to let them go.

Scene 15: Cairn of Fingolfin - Turgon is at his father’s grave. Húrin meets him there. Eagles fly overhead carrying Beren and Lúthien. They discuss fathers and grandfathers, death and legacy. Húrin does not want his grandfather’s fate - to die an old man after the opportunities to fight Morgoth have passed him by. He wants to be there to take his father’s place. [Use dialogue from text]

Scene 16: Two Trees Courtyard - Farewell to Gondolin. Sworn to secrecy. Huor admiring the Two Trees image, and how much he will miss the wonders of Gondolin. Turgon admits these are but a poor image of the actual Two Trees of Valinor. Huor thankful for their time in Gondolin; Idril thanks him for what their visitors have done for Gondolin, changing more than they realized. Your destiny lies outside this city. Maeglin’s line. Watch the eagles fly away with the 3 mortals.


Tag:
 
I hope you all got some sleep now! One thing that we didn’t discuss but I had to ask was the question of language. If Sindarin is the language of daily life in Gondolin, then I think it is straightforward that Húrin and Huor both already speak Sindarin. I think it would be fun though if there were some dialect differences (The kind that might arise after 200+ years of isolation - not complete divegence - so like Australian/US English dialect differences). I think Handir though would only have a rudimentary understanding of Sindarin though, having been brought up exclusively in Brethil where they don’t use Sindarin. So this could contribute to his sense of alienation - he doesn’t understand most of what people are saying.
Not sure how we would show this on screen.

I’m thinking also that one thing Huor could be learning in Gondolin is Quenya - the ‘language of lore’. I also think that while the idea of dusty libraries and large collections of books is an attractive one, I don’t think this is how Elves in the first age, even Pengolodh, worked. Most knowledge would be learned orally through songs. I think that writing things down is not a big thing until perhaps the Havens at Sirion time (this could be where Pengolodh starts documenting things in writing, for example). So Huor would be learning Elven lore in Quenya perhaps, and trying to retain things in his human memory that are easy for elves but difficult for humans. Something like that?
 
To answer an important question from the script discussion....

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The answer is yes, but only if agitated. If another alpaca tries to steal their food, or if a male tries to mate with a female who is already pregnant, there will be a warning to back off, and then spitting a faceful of regurgitated grass. So...you'll only get a faceful of spit if you're unable to get out of the way or ignore the warning sign.
 
We have retroactively decided that the founding of Gondolin (Season 4 Episode 12) happened in FA 174. That will make the second yeni anniversary happen in 462, which will occur during this episode. The firm dates from Season 4 that we are working with are that the Dagor Aglareb in Episode 9 occured in FA 60, and that Glaurung's attack and Galadriel's wedding in Episode 13 happened in FA 260. So, FA 174 is a plausible date for the founding of the city.....
 
Ilana Mushin said:
’. I also think that while the idea of dusty libraries and large collections of books is an attractive one, I don’t think this is how Elves in the first age, even Pengolodh, worked.
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1. No dust. A simple anti-dust spell would prevent it. Elves are about preservation. Things they do are naturally magical and made to endure. Those would not collect dust in an elvish setting akin to how an elvish sword would not collect rust.

2. I agree that Pengoloth is about books. But most Elves are not. They were there at the events. They have perfect memories more real than reality. When anybody tells among them a story it is performance. They are a mostly oral culture. They might write down something for artistry like calligraphy, poems for their visual structure, linguistic tables, mathematics. But the would not write down records or history. They just remember those perfectly, and their memories are far more durable than any parchment could be.
 
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Yes, we agreed that historical record-keeping was an important human use of literacy, but not of particular interest to most elves. Pengolodh is a bit of an exception, as was Rúmil before him. (We showed Rúmil developing writing, but did not get into what he used it for.) When Daeron developed the Cirth, the Dwarves were more interested in this than the Sindar were.

If we are going to ask 'what do they study then?' I feel the need to point out that you don't build the finest city of the Noldor in Beleriand without employing the finest architects and engineers among the Noldor to do so. And that means that there are schools of engineering and architecture in Gondolin. Turgon has an interest in architecture (clearly), so they're well respected there.

Also, while Pengolodh will feature in this episode for his relationship with the humans, it's important to remember that he is not exactly an important elf in Gondolin. He's not a part of the court, he's not a lord of a house, etc. We have plenty of other Gondolindrim characters to keep track of.
 
MithLuin said:
Yes, we agreed that historical record-keeping was an important human use of literacy, but not of particular interest to most elves. Pengolodh is a bit of an exception, as was Rúmil before him. (We showed Rúmil developing writing, but did not get into what he used it for.) When Daeron developed the Cirth, the Dwarves were more interested in this than the Sindar were.

If we are going to ask 'what do they study then?' I feel the need to point out that you don't build the finest city of the Noldor in Beleriand without employing the finest architects and engineers among the Noldor to do so. And that means that there are schools of engineering and architecture in Gondolin. Turgon has an interest in architecture (clearly), so they're well respected there.

Also, while Pengolodh will feature in this episode for his relationship with the humans, it's important to remember that he is not exactly an important elf in Gondolin. He's not a part of the court, he's not a lord of a house, etc. We have plenty of other Gondolindrim characters to keep track of.
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Pengolodh may not be an important elf in Gondolin, but for academic linguists like me (and Tolkien), we have a very soft spot for him. If we want, we can give him a story as he refugees from Gondolin and lives in the Havens (since we will be losing all the main Elven Gondolin players except for Idril). Gathering lore will become more important once they are taking refuge at the havens.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
Pengolodh may not be an important elf in Gondolin, but for academic linguists like me (and Tolkien), we have a very soft spot for him. If we want, we can give him a story as he refugees from Gondolin and lives in the Havens (since we will be losing all the main Elven Gondolin players except for Idril). Gathering lore will become more important once they are taking refuge at the havens.
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I think first records in Gondolin might actually be connected to young Earendil being taught his House's history.
He was not there and he - being a half-elf - might experience trouble remembering everything told to him at once when heard for the first time and he might find taking notes and ordering the history in some kind of points with dates in a sequence helpful.

Similar with Dior and Elwing in Doriath. Those might be the persons inspiring first elvish resources being created which later would result in both the Annals of Aman and provide the sources for the later Grey Annals.

I would think Pengoloth's rise in standing would be connected to him becoming young Earendil's personal teacher.

The later elvish Annals having had their origin in Dior's Earendil's and Dior's/Elwing's "school notes", expanded and completed by Pengoloth at the Havens for the use of young Elros and Elrond, would correspond with them ending up both in Elros' Numenorean and Elrond's Rivendellian archives.
 
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That was indeed heroic, with that 1.30am finish for (at least) Nick...

But thoroughly enjoyable.

The hard part about setting up Maeglin is that we don't want to paint him as an incel creep who thinks too much. But it might be worth trying to sow a tiny seed, a comment (not necessarily even by him) that seems reasonable now, but in light of what happens during the Fall of Gondolin, will be seen in a different light.
 
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